Newbie with general operating questions, low heat output , temp and creosote. + baffle issues Napo

[scooby074]

Hello all.

This is my first post on this interesting site. Ive been lurking here for a bit and used the recommendations here to pick my stove (napoleon 1450). Ive also read most of the stickies on common issues. I will say that for someone who went from an "ambiance" fireplace to fulltime wood heat 24/7 im a bit overwhelmed with some terminology and measurements plus i have a few general questions. Hopefully these arent too Noobie as i did try and search for the answers.

My house is approx 1700sq ft ranch on a hill. Relatively well insulated but not perfect. There are a fair number of picture windows in the front side (4 across the front) these are new windows. Each bedroom has 2 smaller windows. Typically we see a temp range from -15C to+5C in winter. Sometimes colder but thats pretty rare. This winter's averaged -2C.


Stove is a Napolean 1450. 8' single wall pipe to a "T" connected to selkirk 6" thru the attic and out. Approx 10' of selkirk. The stove is in a central location (living room) and the house is open concept.

So with a little background here we go with the questions, hopefully you'll be able to shed a little light or help in any way.


1.Low heat output or so I think.

My stove is supposed to be 70,000 BTU, yet im having a hard time getting my house temperature up. The Room that the stove is in doenst get "hot". Barely warm, with the outer extremes of the house even lower. I have a blower for the stove which is not installed yet as their is still some drywalling being done and the instructions say the blower will be wrecked by the dust. I have a decent summer fan blowing over the stove however. Should this stove heat this house? Will the factory fan make a huge difference once its installed? Do i need a bigger stove?




2. Operating temps of stove

From reading on here i think im ok as far as temps go. Typically i try to stay in the "white" zone on my magnetic stovepipe thermometer. Theromoeter is mounted ~16" from the stove. That ranges from 275-475F. This should be fine? Sometimes im into the 500's.

I do not have a stove thermometer. Should i get one? Magnetic or IR? What is a good stove top operating temperature? I see people talking about 500-650F?

When i see people posting operating temps of 600 is that pipe surface temp? Is it ok to run that temp? What about those that run a hot fire of 1000 to burn out creosote? Is that crazy? My gauge wont even go that high!!



3.Creosote

Ive been running my stove 24/7 for around 3 months now. Looking up the pipe there is some creosote however its smooth to the walls, maybe 1/8" thick at most.I havent looked up near the cap from the outside, but from inside it looks about the same. Only place i can see shiny, oily creosote is right where the cleanout T joins the selkirk. Its very thin there and can be easily scraped to metal with a screwdriver. In the cleanout cap there was 2" of loose creosote"flakes" Is this normal?


Im burning mixed hardwood , some paper and cardboard gets burned as well. The wood was bought late in the year. Its supposed to be "dry". There appear to be checks in it and it does seem to ring when 2 pieces are hit together. However it does have surface water from being exposed to snow. On some pieces there is sizzling in the fire. Given the fact that my operating temps are OK and i have no problems starting the fire and keeping it lit, is the water a risk for increasing creosote buildup? My glass on the door stays clean with minimal buildup.

Given the above conditions should i clean the Flue?



4. Baffles

My stove has fiber baffles. I understand these are wear items. However one baffle (LH) is almost destroyed. Id say its 50% gone lengthwise. The RH baffle is complete but has an eroded area in the middle right side. Id say the erosion is half way thru. Is this normal wear or am i loading it wrong?Is my stove too hot? Is this a dangerous situation? Im having problems getting the "blue propane flame" for secondary combustion, i imagine this is the problem?




5. Dampers

I have a stove pipe damper. At the store i was instructed to use the stovepipe damper to control temperatures and leave the stove air control wide open. This seems wrong to me? Ive disobeyed those instructions and use the stove control to regulate temperature but i have issues holding temperature for a long period without adjustment.



6. Ash

Typically i leave ash to the bottom of the door opening or a little below. I make sure to keep ash free of the air intake. Is this a good amount of ash? What about pushing ash to the back or the front? Sometimes i scoop it up when its still semi-large pieces and sit it to one side . I then put my wet wood in the empty side so it'll dry.


Well think thats a long enough novel for a first post. :D any advise will be much appreciated. Thanks

 

[begreen]

Stove is a Napolean 1450. 8' single wall pipe to a "T" connected to selkirk 6" thru the attic and out. Approx 10' of selkirk. The stove is in a central location (living room) and the house is open concept.

So with a little background here we go with the questions, hopefully you'll be able to shed a little light or help in any way.


1.Low heat output or so I think.

My stove is supposed to be 70,000 BTU, yet im having a hard time getting my house temperature up. The Room that the stove is in doenst get "hot". Barely warm, with the outer extremes of the house even lower. I have a blower for the stove which is not installed yet as their is still some drywalling being done and the instructions say the blower will be wrecked by the dust. I have a decent summer fan blowing over the stove however. Should this stove heat this house? Will the factory fan make a huge difference once its installed? Do i need a bigger stove?

Maximum heat is not the same as nominal heat. The stove seems to be a bit undersized for the climate and home. A factory fan may help a lot. It depends on the room layout in regards to the rest of the house and ceiling height.


2. Operating temps of stove

From reading on here i think im ok as far as temps go. Typically i try to stay in the "white" zone on my magnetic stovepipe thermometer. Theromoeter is mounted ~16" from the stove. That ranges from 275-475F. This should be fine? Sometimes im into the 500's.

I do not have a stove thermometer. Should i get one? Magnetic or IR? What is a good stove top operating temperature? I see people talking about 500-650F?

When i see people posting operating temps of 600 is that pipe surface temp? Is it ok to run that temp? What about those that run a hot fire of 1000 to burn out creosote? Is that crazy? My gauge wont even go that high!!

Are you giving the temps in Celsius or Fahrenheit? Take the thermometer off the pipe for awhile and put it on the stove top. You should be seeing 650F+ temps there. If this is a surface thermometer you don't want to go too much above 600 on the flue for a prolonged period.

3.Creosote

Ive been running my stove 24/7 for around 3 months now. Looking up the pipe there is some creosote however its smooth to the walls, maybe 1/8" thick at most.I havent looked up near the cap from the outside, but from inside it looks about the same. Only place i can see shiny, oily creosote is right where the cleanout T joins the selkirk. Its very thin there and can be easily scraped to metal with a screwdriver. In the cleanout cap there was 2" of loose creosote"flakes" Is this normal?


Im burning mixed hardwood , some paper and cardboard gets burned as well. The wood was bought late in the year. Its supposed to be "dry". There appear to be checks in it and it does seem to ring when 2 pieces are hit together. However it does have surface water from being exposed to snow. On some pieces there is sizzling in the fire. Given the fact that my operating temps are OK and i have no problems starting the fire and keeping it lit, is the water a risk for increasing creosote buildup? My glass on the door stays clean with minimal buildup.

Given the above conditions should i clean the Flue?

Keep an eye on it. It's good to clean about once a cord in the first year of burning.

4. Baffles

My stove has fiber baffles. I understand these are wear items. However one baffle (LH) is almost destroyed. Id say its 50% gone lengthwise. The RH baffle is complete but has an eroded area in the middle right side. Id say the erosion is half way thru. Is this normal wear or am i loading it wrong?Is my stove too hot? Is this a dangerous situation? Im having problems getting the "blue propane flame" for secondary combustion, i imagine this is the problem?

That's a little disturbing. Yes, it needs to be repaired and can affect the heat output of the stove. I wouldn'tt be surprised if you saw the flue temps drop and stove heat increase by repairing this issue.

5. Dampers

I have a stove pipe damper. At the store i was instructed to use the stovepipe damper to control temperatures and leave the stove air control wide open. This seems wrong to me? Ive disobeyed those instructions and use the stove control to regulate temperature but i have issues holding temperature for a long period without adjustment.

How to put this kindly? You are correct and sorry to say, the person at the store is full of it.

6. Ash

Typically i leave ash to the bottom of the door opening or a little below. I make sure to keep ash free of the air intake. Is this a good amount of ash? What about pushing ash to the back or the front? Sometimes i scoop it up when its still semi-large pieces and sit it to one side . I then put my wet wood in the empty side so it'll dry.

Wet wood doesn't belong in these stoves. Dry it out at least a week indoors before burning.

Well think thats a long enough novel for a first post. :D any advise will be much appreciated. Thanks

Welcome to the forums. Response in context in bold.

 

[KB007]

We have a 1450 in the basement of our 1800 sqft bungalow. It was able to heat the house well (1800 sf on upper level, 1800 sf insulated basement

1) Get the fan installed - it helps move the heat a lot
2) I use both a probe in the pipe 18" above the stove top and a stove top magnetic. On the stove top I let it get into the 500-650 range before turning down the air
3) prolly not dry, get it cleaned after a couple of months and see how much you have
4) definitely replace the baffles right away. Take care loading not to hit them with the wood, they are brittle. They form an integral part of the re-burn system on that stove and could be part of why you don't get good heat.
5) use the stove damper not the pipe. It was designed to do it this way.
6) ditto. I used to keep about a 1/2 inch when I emptied it.

 

[scooby074]

First thanks for all the help. I apologize for the long post. I had to get it all out there while it was fresh in my mind :D

I went to the store where i bought my stove today. I was told that the baffles in my stove are the old design. The new ones are much thicker, probably 2x and they also are larger. They fill the entire area at the top only leaving ~3/8" near the glass. I was told this is much better and these baffles wont move around like the old style. I bought a set.

Only problem is i have to remove the top firebrick to install. Right now were getting a storm so this will have to wait for a few days.

Im going to install the blower at the same time and just turn it off when drywalling.

We tried contacting the Napolean Rep today to see if a credit towards an upgrade stove might be possible. Dealer left a message. Hopefully ill hear back soon, but i doubt theyll go good for it. Everyone ive talked too said this stove is a good performer and are surprised that i cant heat my place with it alone which is what brought me here to ask these questions.

While i was at the store today, i made the mistake of looking at the VC Resolute. I really should have bought it instead. Much nicer plus top load and a huge firebox. Maybe with work we can get this 1450 working and i'll no longer regret my purchase.


Ill assume the 600 temps ive been reading about were pipe temps in F. Not sure thats why i posted for clarification. 650F on the stovetop is a good starting point then? Right now im 300F on the pipe surface and 400f on the stovetop near the collar ,above the side with the complete baffle. This doesnt seem right? seems low? Im using a magnetic surface thermometer for all my readings.

On the damper, if not to control the stove, then whats it for? Keeping out drafts and fighting any potential flue fire i suppose? It was installed by me based solely on what the guy at the store said.


Interesting on the wet wood thing. I have to keep my wood outside so some snow on the ends is inevitable. I hope this wont cause problems.

Ill post up some results when i change the baffles.

 

[KB007]

I'd use the stove top temps for "operational" use and take them closer to the front corner since this is the hotter area. The flue temp you'r getting - is that outside a double wall pipe? If so it will e a lot lower than the actual temp. I use the probe really only as a second check not the main source for what to do.

Don't know why your guy would have said to install a damper, We don't have in either flue and they work great.

As for wood, keep a small supply somewhere near the stove (but far enough away for safety) the surface water really isn't an issue it boils off really quickly

 

[firefighterjake]

First thanks for all the help. I apologize for the long post. I had to get it all out there while it was fresh in my mind :D

I went to the store where i bought my stove today. I was told that the baffles in my stove are the old design. The new ones are much thicker, probably 2x and they also are larger. They fill the entire area at the top only leaving ~3/8" near the glass. I was told this is much better and these baffles wont move around like the old style. I bought a set.

Only problem is i have to remove the top firebrick to install. Right now were getting a storm so this will have to wait for a few days.

Im going to install the blower at the same time and just turn it off when drywalling.

We tried contacting the Napolean Rep today to see if a credit towards an upgrade stove might be possible. Dealer left a message. Hopefully ill hear back soon, but i doubt theyll go good for it. Everyone ive talked too said this stove is a good performer and are surprised that i cant heat my place with it alone which is what brought me here to ask these questions.

While i was at the store today, i made the mistake of looking at the VC Resolute. I really should have bought it instead. Much nicer plus top load and a huge firebox. Maybe with work we can get this 1450 working and i'll no longer regret my purchase.


Ill assume the 600 temps ive been reading about were pipe temps in F. Not sure thats why i posted for clarification. 650F on the stovetop is a good starting point then? Right now im 300F on the pipe surface and 400f on the stovetop near the collar ,above the side with the complete baffle. This doesnt seem right? seems low? Im using a magnetic surface thermometer for all my readings.

On the damper, if not to control the stove, then whats it for? Keeping out drafts and fighting any potential flue fire i suppose? It was installed by me based solely on what the guy at the store said. Most folks that install a damper in their stove pipe do so to a) have a way to cut off the air from the stove to the chimney in case of a flue fire and b) perhaps more importantly, for some folks with excessive drafts adding a flue damper can slow things up a bit more. I have a pretty tall chimney and have not found the need for a flue damper myself, but other folks have installed and used them with great success.

Interesting on the wet wood thing. I have to keep my wood outside so some snow on the ends is inevitable. I hope this wont cause problems. No issues . . . just surface moisture . . . bring the wood inside and in a few hours the snow/moisture on the surface will melt away . . . surface moisture is not a problem . . . what is a problem is wood that is unseasoned . . . it takes a whole lot more than just a few hours to take care of that problem.
Ill post up some results when i change the baffles.

 

[scooby074]

The pipe temps im posting are surface temps on a single wall pipe.

Ive changed over to another woodpile that had much dyer wood. This wood has no snow on it at all. I also installed the blower in an attempt to get more heat.

Still no joy. Very slight if any difference. Even the room the stove in is "warm" not hot.

I havent put the baffles in yet. Im kind of running out of ideas

 

[begreen]

Start with the baffles and go from there. If most of the heat is heading up the flue, there's none left for you and secondary combustion will be poor.

 

[scooby074]

We had a bit of a mild spell today, so i shut down the stove to do some maintenance.,

I cleaned out the old ashes and changed my baffles.

I attached a few pictures of the install and a comparison between the old and new design baffles and the tighter clearance in the front. In order to install the new design baffles the top two rows of bricks need to be removed. Anyone considering the upgrade should consider the downtime to allow the stove to cool. The new baffles really do lock in there much tighter than the old ones

Im getting the stove up to temperature now. I have noticed an improvement in secondary burn however i haven't seen an increase in heat output. Ill keep an eye on it and update.

Im considering buying a IR thermometer to keep a closer eye on temps plus other uses. Any recommendations? Im looking at the Raytek MT6. Its around $80 here. http://www.raytek.com/Raytek/en-r0/...eries/MiniTemp-AutomotiveHandheld/Default.htm

 

[scooby074]

Went out today and got a IR thermometer. I couldnt find a Raytek, but i may have found something better!

Its a Ultrapro 95152, made by GTC. Imagine my surprise when i saw a "Made In Canada" on the label Most of this stuff is out of china. So i bought it :D So far it seems like a good unit for $79.00 which is the same price as the Raytek

Now at least i have a means of accurate temperatures.

I think the baffles made a difference at least in stove operation, but not in room temperature.

Stovetop (near front edge) : 517 F

Stovepipe Surface :236 F which is exactly what my SBI magnetic thermo was reading.

These numbers seem to be about where i should be? Now i need to look at other reasons why im not getting my house temps up.

 

[Hankjones]

Have you tried the blower? If I don't have the blower on, I don't think it'll heat the room. I have an insert so that a part of it, but my insert sticks out quite a bit. I also had to adjust my expectations, for my place I can raise the temp of the room 1-2 degrees an hour, and for upstairs it can take a lot longer.

 

[drhiii]

I have a Napoleon 1400. Blower is imperative. Running without, it will slowly heat the house. I rigged a high speed Stanley blower from Ace HW on a timer and it blasts heat out. Warms across several rooms, even on days when we get sub zero. Blower is imperative.

What kind of wood, and is it cured? Variations of the wood type and moisture make a big diff. I can burn elm and get mediocre but adequate warmth for above 30 degrees. I put one or two splits of pinon or cedar/juniper and have to damper all the way down as heat is blasting from the stove.

It took a little bit to get familiar with getting things right. But once I did, especially the blower and harvesting high performance wood like pinon and cedar, the Naploeon 1400 does just fine for what it is.

I salivate for a Blaze King tho...

 

[KB007]

What temp are you getting the stove top up to before starting to shutdown the air control? And how are you shutting it down - in stages or all in one step?

Are you loading NS or EW? I found with our 1450 NS seemed to burn better, longer, hotter. DOn't give up, that sucker was heating my 1800sf basement and 1800 sf main floor for a year with no real problem (except the occasional -30 nights).

 

[scooby074]

The factory blower is operating.

Im burning "mixed" hardwood. I didnt cut it.Most is split into ~3-5" wedges but there are some rounds and thinner pieces. There is no birch. Mostly oak, hemlock? and maple. According to who i bought it from it was "dry". THe wood feels "light" and has checks in the end so ill assume it is relatively dry. I dont have a moisture meter to check with.Im loading the stove NS (perpendicular to the door) as my wood is too long to go EW.

Stove top temps are typically 450-500F depending on where i measure on the stovetop before i shut down. I shut the stove damper off to ~1/4-1/2 open in one step. Should i do it gradually? I usually watch the flame and try for a slow , lazy flame.

Everything ive read says this stove is good and should do what i want, but im really wishing i bought bigger. I guess im used to the old non epa stoves that would get cranked up and literally heat you out of a room.