Newbie with Block Off Plate question

[JoeRJGR]

Hi All,

I have been lurking here for a while trying to decide which fireplace insert I should buy and have decided on a Clydesdale.

As usual, I reserach this stuff to death, and as big DIY, I usually find that no installer who works on your house will do it anywhere near the best way possible or even know half of what I am talking about after all my research..

I have a few questions:

1. I have read that many people believe that a block off plate will help stop any draft from coming past the stove and out the chimney, thus keeping maximium draft for the insert. However, if the SS liner is connected to the insert on one end, and to a cap at the top of the chimney, where exactly would the draw be coming from? Unless the doors of the insert are open....

2. Same with insulation. I can see where the ss liner could heat and cool and cause more cresote issues, but I have also read that the air between the ss liner and chimney acts as insulation and as long as connection between the stove and cap ar good, its not required.

3. Finally, everyone I talk to wants close to $1,000 plus another $500 - $600 for the liner when doing an install ( and will not insulate or use a block off plate). ....why on earth is it so expensive to run a SS liner from the top of the chimney to the insert and clamp it???????? I really would rather do this myself, its just that I have no way to move a 550 pound hunck of metal...course maybe thats where the $1,000 comes in.

Oh..one more thing...my room is 18 feet wide. and my LCD TV is angled in the corner about 30 inches away from the insert....its not really a combustable, so I assume its OK?????

I appreciatte your thougths and I assume that shortly I will be as addicted to the fire as you all........

 

[basod]

1st off good stove choice.
i installed my own. I don't know where you're going to find a 550lb SS liner. I bought mine off ebay if i remember correctly 25' with insulation kit for $750.
this was the double spiral wound "flex" liner. its not so flexible but i think total ship weight ~70lbs this icludes the top cap, chimney cap, and 6" adapter.
I had to buy a longer ladder to safely access above my chimney ndn my buddy climbed the 28' leaned against the house to help leverage the liner up and over.
It was somewhat of a circus act getting it in but I'd definitely tie off with a fall harness as swinging this unruly long liner up and getting it started is the tough part. once its started the liner should side right in but tie a rope to bottom to hellp pull down if it gets hung up.
As far as clearance goes I barely notice any temp change on the sides of the clydesdale all the heat is radiant infront of the glass and convection off the top and out with the blower.
The block off plate will prevent convection air from entering the cavity between liner and flue tile as well as prevent radiant heat absorbing into mortar/tile mass above and keep heat in your room. The liner insulation will keep heat in the flue and prevent radiating into flue chase which should help temps and keep cresote to a minmum if your wood is dry. Insultaing and covering the remaining back and isdes of the hearth will help keep heat in the room if you have an exterior chimney.

 

[begreen]

I'm not sure the source of this information, but there are some erroneous or misunderstood assumptions.

1) A block off plate is not to prevent loss of draft, it's to prevent heat loss up the chimney to the mass of masonry. By keeping the fireplace firebox warmer with a block off plate, there is less heat loss from the insert's convection chamber to the outdoors.

2) A liner should be insulated. The insulation does help draft and can reduce creosote accumulation if one burns correctly with dry wood. But it's primary function is safety, particularly in a situation where there is an unlined chimney or one with cracked and missing tiles.

3) Several folks here have done the liner installation. Some do it to save money and some do it because they want it done right. Are the installers that you have spoken with WETT certified? Have they actually inspected the chimney with a camera?

What is the throat size of the chimney on the fireplace? Is it interior or exterior? Is it tile lined, cleaned and in excellent condition?

 

[JoeRJGR]

Be Green and BASOD,

Thanks for your comments. I should clarify that my reference to the 550 lbs was the unit itself and not the liner. I totally get the block off's plate purpose now...that makes perfect sense.

Not sure about being wett certified, I tried doing a search on the only listed members seemed to be in Canada. I have had 2 companies come to the house. The first is new company, but say that their installers have been in the business for years. When I talked to the sales people, they had no idea what a block off plate was, and said it does not get cold enough in NJ to worry about insulating the liner. Actually, that was my experience with several fireplace/insert/stove companies.

The second company has been doing this for about 30 years and they are NCSG certified. These guys said all installs are done with a block off plate and some insulation above it. They use a smooth line flex SS liner that they say is much thicker than the standard type and that it somewhat acts as insulation and again, no insulation is needed.

Both companies are charging about $1,700 for the install including the liner and costs for the insert are the same.

The fireplace is made of brick and is in good shape. It is on the west side of my home and there are actually 3 flues to it..all seperatefrom each other. One, for downstairs fireplace, onne for upstairs fireplace, and one for the heater. The insert will go in the downstairs fireplace.

They both took pictures but not with a camera they could drop down into the fireplace, just from the bottom of the fireplace...T

I just dont want to mess around from a safety standpoint...

Thanks agin for you help.

 

[KeepWarmInWinter]

Joe,

Welcome to the Clydesdale family. I would like to answer your question #3.
We have done the liner installation ourselves because we wanted it done right.
It is difficult to find installers who are willing to install the block off plate and insulate a chimney liner.
We installed the liner before our Clydesdale was delivered.
We used Flex King liner ($370) and insulation blanket ($250) from Chimney Liner Depot.
We purchased our Clydesdale ($2600) from a dealer who is located about 100 miles from our town.
The unit was delivered to the hearth for $90.
Moving of the unit from the heart to the firebox, after we connected the liner, we managed ourselves.
We inserted thin metal sheet under each leg. It helped to slide the unit into the final position.
I wish you a good luck with your installation.

 

[JoeRJGR]

Keep Warm,

Thanks for the reply..

That is exactly what I am finding...on top of wanting to charge $1800 for an installation, I cant find anyone who says instulation is required unless I have a north facing chimney.

I want this done right, this is my house and we're talking about fire here. But as usual, I cant find anyone to do it right unless I do it myself. Its so frustrating...I dont have time to do every project that needs to get done, and you wish you could count on someone to do something right.


Man, prices are different down here. We are getting a Clydesdale with the brown majolica finish and everyone charges the same $3600 - $3700. Plus you know that beautiful thing will look terrible up against an old red brick fireplace with black mortar, so I'm going to have to re-stone the wall.....getting expensive...

 

[Eaglecraft]

Keep Warm,

Thanks for the reply..

That is exactly what I am finding...on top of wanting to charge $1800 for an installation, I cant find anyone who says instulation is required unless I have a north facing chimney.

I want this done right, this is my house and we're talking about fire here. But as usual, I cant find anyone to do it right unless I do it myself. Its so frustrating...I dont have time to do every project that needs to get done, and you wish you could count on someone to do something right.


Man, prices are different down here. We are getting a Clydesdale with the brown majolica finish and everyone charges the same $3600 - $3700. Plus you know that beautiful thing will look terrible up against an old red brick fireplace with black mortar, so I'm going to have to re-stone the wall.....getting expensive...

Joe:

I couldn't find anyone in my area who would assume responsibility for any damage done to my floor/hearth/walls/chimney while installing a new Clydesdale. That's how confident some folks are in their own work. So I did the work myself. See some of the photos that my better half took during the installation. Mind you that I'm 65 and handing that pipe by myself on the roof was a chore. I chose not to replace the real brick work, I just cleaned the bricks.

By the way, I insulated the 6 inch Flex King Pro and "stopped" both the top and bottom of the pipe. The photos show my break-in fire. The unit was #$3,445 with blue/black enamel delivered. The pipe, insulation, fittings etc. were another $1,400. That does not include the cost of hiring a welder to cut out the Superior Heatform Fireplace heat tubes (1/4 inch boilerplate steel), and fabricate/weld the bottom stop plate.

Good luck with your installation

 

[Jags]

I want this done right,

Then INSULATE it.

I totally get the block off's plate purpose now...that makes perfect sense.

Finally. ;-P

 

[JoeRJGR]

Volemister,

Sweet installation....very nice...

You wont be passing through Jersey anytime soon will you? Ha ha....and I noticed you planned this out so it was still nice out when you did it...now how smart was that.....here I am thinking aboit getting this done in the middle of winter....

Again all...thanks

 

[joel95ex]

there are a lot of videos on liner installation. every site I read said that the liner should be insulated. I was researching a lot because I was considering a liner. The liner is wrapped with the insulation blanket and a mesh net, then is ready for install. the top is then cut and terminated. To me, the most difficult part would be moving the fireplace/insert/stove as many are heavy without the firebrick installed. Also, I think that research and DIY is better. I spoke with the so-called experts in our area, and the guy was clueless---they don;t even do the installs----so he wasn't even sure what was appropriate for me. I think as long as your clearances, chimney rating and specs for chimney height, outside air kit, etc. are all correct, then you should be safe.

 

[Eaglecraft]

Joel:

You are correct in that moving a cast-iron stove around is a PITA. My Clydesdale was delivered to my trailer. I rented an "Lectric" truck (motorized up and down hand truck with four wheels) to get the insert into my house. I discovered that when I loaded the stove onto the truck, I couldn't tip it back. It's center of gravity was too low and too heavy - about 600 lbs. So I got 3 other guys plus myself and we wheeled it off the trailer and into the house.

I fabricated a platform to rest the stove on while I completed the SS Flex Pipe installation. The platform was at the same height as my existing brick hearth and had sheet metal on top to help slide the stove in place. Once the stove was on the platform, I uncrated the unit, took the stone out, took the door off and the insert was ready to push back into the fireplace. My welder and I slid the insert back into the fireplace opening. This step was actually pretty easy.

By the way, the local Hearthstone dealer had never sold a Clydesdale and had no experience with its installation. He had no clue whether I should insulate the SS Flex Pipe or not. He couldn't see the need to insulate. In my view, insulating the pipe was a no-brainer after reading the commentary about pipe insulation on Hearth.com. This forum is a valuable resource to DIY'ers who want to do work so that the product is safe and a compliant installation.

See a few more photos about my installation.

 

[JoeRJGR]

I agree that insulation should be done, and certainly cant hurt, but I have read both the Regency and Hearthstone installation instructions, and neither mention using an insulated liner.

Regency says use a block off plate only if you do a partial liner, and Hearthstone says use a block off plate and full liner always.

Just for fun, guess I'll look up what Jotul says, and VC, and.......................................................

I hate being German sometimes...

 

[begreen]

Stove manuals can be constrained by cost, management or knowledge at the time. They are rarely complete installation guides for venting, just like they rarely get into details of hearth construction, ducting or wiring. For example, a lot of manuals don't mention that single-wall stove pipe needs to be installed crimp down, even though this is primary to satisfactory operation without creosote drips.

One exception here is Woodstock which has an excellent library of installation guides.
http://www.woodstove.com/

 

[JoeRJGR]

Joyul says the asme as Regency....

 

[begreen]

volemister, that is a first class install. It looks really nice. You are right, it's likely better than some hired pros would do. That's the nice part about being able to take your time to do something right. It's a luxury that someone on a bid clock doesn't always have.

 

[JoeRJGR]

Agreed, professional would od such a great install...Its always the fastest and cheapest possible...

Volemister...surely you have relatives you have been ignoring in Jersey???

 

[Eaglecraft]

BeGreen and JoeRJGR:

Thanks for the compliment on my stove install. A great advantage that DIY'ers have is that they know how things were done. And my wife took photos of the install all along to refer to in the future - if need be.

My wife and I purchased an older house in the "boonies" built in the 60's and have made many improvements and upgrades over the years - many that I accomplished and some that I contracted out. I have come to the conclusion that the typical guy who comes out to do a job has not learned from a mentor how to do a job right. It's not so much that they don't have the time to do a job right, often it's a matter of not knowing what to do or how to do it.

If you watch episodes of This Old House as I do, you can agree that Tommy Silva has both the knowledge and desire to do a job right. He is a master contractor and knows what he is doing. What I see with the "kids" that come out to my place to do a job is that they have not trained under a master and so don't have the knowledge to do a job right. I won't bore you with any examples, but more than once I have had to "undo" what my contractor did wrong.

Again, many thanks for the compliment. This forum helped me complete the installation properly. The main thing is that I have no concerns that the job was not done properly - endangering me and my wife.