New to modern wood stoves - advice wanted

[VikkiP]

Greetings, I'm new here. While I grew up with wood heat ('70s Shenandoah wood furnace) and my current pre-EPA not really airtight Gibraltar, I have zero knowledge on modern wood stove technology.

We're building a new off grid log home (will have solar + inverter) and have an unlimited supply of semi-dry oak firewood on site, so efficiency alone is not the highest concern. We pulled 10 full cords out this year and didn't make a dent. But at the same time I'm not crazy about cleaning out the ashes every other day like the old Gibraltar requires as it consumes a lot of wood.

The house will be about 1800 feet including partial loft and will have a superinsulated warm roof. It will be a 9 month of the year weekend home as it would be difficult to ensure that all systems stay operational when it's inaccessible over the winter. We will also have an LP furnace that we will run in spring and fall to prevent plumbing damage from freezes before we shut it down. The wood stove is currently planned for one side of the great room, on the eaves side.

Although I love masonry chimneys I am concerned about the log shrinkage at the interface with the chimney potentially causing separation, and due to the height, slope, and material of the roof I'd also like to avoid/minimize roof penetrations (planning on standing seam, which will require a cricket). While exterior metal chimneys are not the prettiest thing, am I correct that it could be boxed in once the log shrinkage is done?

How are chimney cleanouts and ash cleanouts done nowadays? With our current stove we stand on a low pitch, single story asphalt roof and brush it, or can disconnect the stovepipe and brush up, cleaning the lower section and elbow by taking it outdoors and brushing and dumping it. If we buy a zero clearance fireplace and install it against the logs and build a mantel and hearth, where would we have cleanout access? Our current stove has a big ash pan that can be carried outside for dumping, but many of the videos I've seen show people shoveling ash out. Is this typical now?

Thanks for the opportunity to ask many questions. I want to make the right decisions the first time.

 

[begreen]

While exterior metal chimneys are not the prettiest thing, am I correct that it could be boxed in once the log shrinkage is done?

Yes, but straight up and out the roof is the best way to install. Are you set on a ZC fireplace or is a freestanding stove on a nice hearth a possibility? The latter will give you more choices for looks and functionality.



It sounds like a ~3.0 cu ft stove or ZC fireplace will suffice. Features like an ashpan vary with stove design.

 

[ericm979]

Also many ZC fireplaces have a fan that probably should run when there's a fire. With less surface area there's less area to radiate heat to the room. Replacing it with another unit will likely require rebuilding the surround that it fits in unless by a miracle it's the same size. With a stove it would be simpler.

I put in a ZC fireplace due to space considerations. If I was building from scratch I'd plan for a free standing stove.

 

[VikkiP]

Thanks for the advice. While I like the "built in" look of an insert it seems counterintuitive to build a perfectly good fireplace and flue then stuff it with a stove. That would also mean cutting a big hole in my log house to make it even semi-recessed. I was just hoping to save some footprint as the room won't be all that big.

So going back to freestanding stoves, and making one look like it belongs and isn't just an appliance camping out in the room, how can I safely incorporate an attractive heatback/surround/hearth that can serve to dry boots and gloves like a fireplace hearth does? Our current stove is the "camping in the corner" style so it doesn't take up much useful space and we just set wet stuff either on the log rack to the side or on the tile base around it. I was hoping for the looks of a fireplace but the practicality of a wood stove.

The other option would be to install in the walkout basement, but that would lead to a pretty tall chimney, 30ish feet or so depending on where the stovepipe joined the flue. We need to make a decision before the footings go in this spring. Since the staircase won't be open we'd be entirely dependent upon mechanical air movement which isn't great with solar only.

 

[begreen]

While I like the "built in" look of an insert it seems counterintuitive to build a perfectly good fireplace and flue then stuff it with a stove.

Agreed 100%. Sometimes the word insert is used incorrectly to describe a ZC fireplaces. I think that is all that is being described here. Some Zero Clearance fireplaces had the same internals as their freestanding stove. They are placed in an insulated convective cabinet which reduces the clearances down to a low amount. These installations are then finished off with face treatment, mantel, etc. and the chimney is chased to hide it. For example:

https://www.pacificenergy.net/product/fp30-le/

A freestanding stove can be installed in a corner with a nice hearth. The hearth can be built larger to accommodate a wood rack, kindling box, boot drying rack, etc. The hearth can have a back wall treatment or, as long as the clearances are honored, no back treatement, just the exposed logs.

 

[VikkiP]

Agreed 100%. Sometimes the word insert is used incorrectly to describe a ZC fireplaces. I think that is all that is being described here. Some Zero Clearance fireplaces had the same internals as their freestanding stove. They are placed in an insulated convective cabinet which reduces the clearances down to a low amount. These installations are then finished off with face treatment, mantel, etc. and the chimney is chased to hide it. For example:

https://www.pacificenergy.net/product/fp30-le/

A freestanding stove can be installed in a corner with a nice hearth. The hearth can be built larger to accommodate a wood rack, kindling box, boot drying rack, etc. The hearth can have a back wall treatment or, as long as the clearances are honored, no back treatement, just the exposed logs.

View attachment 304788

Both of the photos you showed me have a long stovepipe before the 90 going out to a chimney. I was under the impression that the only place a 90 should be used was at the connection to the stove - or since this is a vertical vent stove, does this fit under "stove connection"? Our old Gibraltar has a rear exit, which means that you have to open the ash pan door and induce a good draft before opening the wood box door if you don't want to chew smoke. It lingers in the box before finding its way over the smoke shelf and back through the horizontal to vertical transition. The glass hasn't been clean since I replaced it 20 years ago.

So now that I have a little more education on inserts (require masonry fireplace) and ZC (require powered air circulation fans) I'm thinking that a freestanding with reduced-clearance protective surfaces may be the best solution. I looked at Blaze King and if they deliver what they advertise, I'm impressed. I know that 20 years ago catalytic stoves had a really bad rap, and so did the non-cat tube afterburners. What's the story today?

 

[begreen]

These are just random illustrations of stoves in log cabins. It's always better to run the flue system straight-up through the home interior and out the roof.

Some ZCs, will heat ok in a power outage, just not as well as with blower assist. If this is an issue, try to avoid grand cathedral ceilings. They need ceiling fans to stir up and move the hot air that will stratify at the peak. During a power outage the lack of circulation can result in it being cold at floor level and over 100º at the ceiling peak.

I know that 20 years ago catalytic stoves had a really bad rap, and so did the non-cat tube afterburners. What's the story today?

Maybe 30+ years ago, but not 20. BK was making good cat stoves back then, so were Woodstock and Buck. And many of the non-cats of that period are still good stoves today. Some have only made relatively minor tweaks to their 2002 designs.

 

[VikkiP]

These are just random illustrations of stoves in log cabins. It's always better to run the flue system straight-up through the home interior and out the roof.

Some ZCs, will heat ok in a power outage, just not as well as with blower assist. If this is an issue, try to avoid grand cathedral ceilings. They need ceiling fans to stir up and move the hot air that will stratify at the peak. During a power outage the lack of circulation can result in it being cold at floor level and over 100º at the ceiling peak.


Maybe 30+ years ago, but not 20. BK was making good cat stoves back then, so were Woodstock and Buck. And many of the non-cats of that period are still good stoves today. Some have only made relatively minor tweaks to their 2002 designs.

more great info, thanks. We will be off grid so minimizing power draw will be essential. The room the woodstove will be in has a cathedral ceiling, but we will have a DC ceiling fan in there (very efficient) so we won't have the air stratified. Our old woodstove down here is also in a cathedral ceiling room and we use both a ceiling fan to push down and a circulating fan to push air out of the uninsulated room...with the woodstove it stays between 65 and 80 in the sunroom all winter.

 

[bholler]

more great info, thanks. We will be off grid so minimizing power draw will be essential. The room the woodstove will be in has a cathedral ceiling, but we will have a DC ceiling fan in there (very efficient) so we won't have the air stratified. Our old woodstove down here is also in a cathedral ceiling room and we use both a ceiling fan to push down and a circulating fan to push air out of the uninsulated room...with the woodstove it stays between 65 and 80 in the sunroom all winter.

If you want to be efficient ditch the cathedral ceiling honestly.

 

[stoveliker]

Since you'll be using this as a weekend place, I figure you want to heat the place quickly from its week of cold. You may do better with another stove than a BK.

BKs are fantastic (I have one) but they really shine when one burns truly continuously.

I think a good noncat may give you more pleasure. Preferably (imo) one that has good high output, but can also be turned down reasonably well.

 

[VikkiP]

Since you'll be using this as a weekend place, I figure you want to heat the place quickly from its week of cold. You may do better with another stove than a BK.

BKs are fantastic (I have one) but they really shine when one burns truly continuously.

I think a good noncat may give you more pleasure. Preferably (imo) one that has good high output, but can also be turned down reasonably well.

I'm concerned about creosote buildup from intermittent burn cycles. The wood will be 6 months to a year seasoned; will a non-cat or a cat tend to generate more creosote? We will not be able to sweep the chimney from the roof (2 1/2 stories over a bluff, metal roof)

 

[stoveliker]

I don't think creosote production is going to be significantly different for the two technologies.

Intermittent fires should be burned hot enough, continuous fire should be burned hot enough.

My remark was meant for when you arrive at the cabin, it's cold, and you don't like waiting two hours to take off your coat.

Google the sooteater for bottom up sweeping.

6 months to a year may not be enough for hardwood. Pine or so could be fine. Get a moisture meter and measure on a fresh split to see something is dry enough.

 

[VikkiP]

I don't think creosote production is going to be significantly different for the two technologies.

Intermittent fires should be burned hot enough, continuous fire should be burned hot enough.

My remark was meant for when you arrive at the cabin, it's cold, and you don't like waiting two hours to take off your coat.

Google the sooteater for bottom up sweeping.

6 months to a year may not be enough for hardwood. Pine or so could be fine. Get a moisture meter and measure on a fresh split to see something is dry enough.

We're cutting dead and dying oak as fast as we can (two lined chestnut borer and its associated fungus is decimating our black oak) and it's typically standing deadwood shedding bark for 6 months to a year before we can get to it, then we cut and drag the trunks, buck, stack, and leave them until we are ready to use them. We don't have a wood splitter up there yet so we usually haul the debarked logs home and split them here to burn in our old stove. By the time they hit the stove they are well checked. My old Wagner pinless moisture meter says 16% - 18% MC on what we brought inside yesterday which is a mix of last year leftover and just split.

 

[kborndale]

We're cutting dead and dying oak as fast as we can (two lined chestnut borer and its associated fungus is decimating our black oak) and it's typically standing deadwood shedding bark for 6 months to a year before we can get to it, then we cut and drag the trunks, buck, stack, and leave them until we are ready to use them. We don't have a wood splitter up there yet so we usually haul the debarked logs home and split them here to burn in our old stove. By the time they hit the stove they are well checked. My old Wagner pinless moisture meter says 16% - 18% MC on what we brought inside yesterday which is a mix of last year leftover and just split.

Are you checking on a freshly split piece? If not you are getting a reading that is significantly lower than it actually is.

 

[begreen]

If you want to be efficient ditch the cathedral ceiling honestly.

Agreed, especially for an off-grid residence.

 

[VikkiP]

Are you checking on a freshly split piece? If not you are getting a reading that is significantly lower than it actually is.

Yes, within the last week when we hauled a fresh back home and split it.

 

[VikkiP]

Agreed, especially for an off-grid residence.

The cathedral great room is connected to the loft bedroom, the heat won't be wasted. Whoever sleeps up there can be toasty.

 

[Todd]

The cathedral great room is connected to the loft bedroom, the heat won't be wasted. Whoever sleeps up there can be toasty.

I have a small log cabin with high ceilings and loft. It heats great with my Jotul F45. Ceiling fan definitely helps even out the heat but it’s still 4-6 degrees warmer up in the loft.

 

[VikkiP]

I have a small log cabin with high ceilings and loft. It heats great with my Jotul F45. Ceiling fan definitely helps even out the heat but it’s still 4-6 degrees warmer up in the loft.

How big is small? Ours won't be huge but not a trapper cabin either - 1200sf main floor, 300sf loft. We want to minimize use of the propane furnace and just use it to keep the place from freezing in the season bookends.

 

[Hoytman]

Yes, but straight up and out the roof is the best way to install. Are you set on a ZC fireplace or is a freestanding stove on a nice hearth a possibility? The latter will give you more choices for looks and functionality.

View attachment 304778

It sounds like a ~3.0 cu ft stove or ZC fireplace will suffice. Features like an ashpan vary with stove design.

Off topic:
Is that your Lopi Liberty?
If so, those legs seem higher than mine, and my stove sits low to the ground. I wonder if they offered two leg sizes in 1998 (my model year)?
Edit: Not your stove. Leg question doesn’t apply to you but maybe someone knows the answer.

 

[Todd]

How big is small? Ours won't be huge but not a trapper cabin either - 1200sf main floor, 300sf loft. We want to minimize use of the propane furnace and just use it to keep the place from freezing in the season bookends.

600 sq ft main floor, 200sq ft loft. Also full basement but not heated.

 

[begreen]

The cathedral great room is connected to the loft bedroom, the heat won't be wasted. Whoever sleeps up there can be toasty.

Indeed, they will be, but the folks at the main floor level may be chilly. I have lived in this situation and often thought about extending the loft to block the heat stratifying near the peak and in the loft.

 

[Woody Stover]

Are you checking on a freshly split piece? If not you are getting a reading that is significantly lower than it actually is.

Yes, within the last week when we hauled a fresh back home and split it.

Red/Black Oak are the ones that most frequently die here, so that's a lot of what we burn. On the ones similar to what you're describing, dead-standers with loose bark, if I'm lucky, some of the smaller upper branches might be pretty dry, but the bigger branches and trunk are still pretty wet. I don't try to burn any Oak until I've had it split, stacked and top-covered for three years. Small, dry branches usually don't amount to a lot of wood.
In your situation I'd try to get some Red Maple, Pine, Tulip Poplar or other fast-drying wood, until you can get the Oak dry.
Or, although I don't like to use plastic if I can avoid it, I might try a solar kiln.

 

[VikkiP]

Red/Black Oak are the ones that most frequently die here, so that's a lot of what we burn. On the ones similar to what you're describing, dead-standers with loose bark, if I'm lucky, some of the smaller upper branches might be pretty dry, but the bigger branches and trunk are still pretty wet. I don't try to burn any Oak until I've had it split, stacked and top-covered for three years. Small, dry branches usually don't amount to a lot of wood.
In your situation I'd try to get some Red Maple, Pine, Tulip Poplar or other fast-drying wood, until you can get the Oak dry.
Or, although I don't like to use plastic if I can avoid it, I might try a solar kiln.

Once we have the house built I will be building a solar kiln/woodshed, likely with a black steel roof and three bins or banks we'll rotate through. We've been cutting trees for years now and so far we've just stacked them where we drop them then picked them up as we need them, but we bought a utility tractor this year that allows us to bring the trunks to a central location out of the middle of the woods so we've become more efficient at gathering and stacking, and that will require more logistics than remembering what year we cut and stacked the round logs. Once we get the splitter up there, we'll be able to speed the drying process. My father in law had to have a clump of black oak cut from his cabin's front yard, and while dead, these trunks were very wet and still not showing any checking months later split and stacked. I'll check them again next year.