Need to replace an Alderlea T6 EBT version 1

[northal]

Need to replace an Alderlea T6 EBT version 1 - Advice needed

Our Alderlea T6 has developed cracks on both sides of the door opening. Pacific Energy is only offering $ 250 towards welding the firebox on their Lifetime Warranty; but neither the local welders nor our insurance company will have anything to do with this type of repair.

Bit of background – the stove has always run very hot (800F to 950F flue probe) after closing off both the stove and flue damper. This is after both the dealer and PE distributer have worked on the problem (for years) to bring the operating temp from over 1200F down to 800F range. And that’s with me light-loading the firebox.

The chimney is 30 to 33 feet with 19 feet inside running to the attic. Stove is in the basement of this 10-year-old tightly constructed bungalow with the air flow conditioned with an auto balanced HRV. The wood is mainly ash at this point.

The dealer has offered a ‘reasonable’ discount price to replace the T6 and install either a PE Summit LE or an Enerzone 3.5.

Since the Summit is the same firebox as the T6, I like the Summit’s 20” N/S load, the baffle system and the idea the new EBT may really work, but unsure the stove can be controlled. Maybe the T6 is just defective and the dealer/distributer couldn’t find the issue(s).

I come to this forum of ‘by fire’ experienced experts for your wise opinions on the Summit, Enerzone 3.5 or something else in our situation.

Thanks, Al

 

[Highbeam]

From what I understand the t6 IS a summit with fancy cast panels screwed on.

Interesting that you couldn’t reel in those flue temps. Did you not add one or two key dampers?

 

[stoveliker]

I would be concerned about the same happening on your new stove if draft is not better controlled.

 

[begreen]

I have the first gen T6 on a 20' straight-up, flue system. It's an easy breathing stove and IMO the fire was getting a bit too much air. In this circumstance, the boost air was superfluous and the EBT1 design feeding the boost air made the situation worse. The remedy was to block off the EBT1 which stopped feeding the fire boost air. That was sufficient to tame the fire down and make burning for the last 15 yrs predictable and well behaved. We may see a brief 800º flue temp on startup, but cruise at around 600º probe flue temp. It's going on its 16th season with no cracks or ill behavior. I added a key damper last season, not because it was necessary, but to have better insight into how it affected the stove performance in different conditions.

Starting a fire and running an EPA stove

Questions about starting a fire and avoiding a runaway stove come up so frequently I decided to document starting our stove. This is a Pacific Energy Alderlea T6 with about a 3 cu ft firebox. The stove is connected to a straight-up, 20' interior flue. The outside ambient temperature is 34ºF. The...

www.hearth.com

The new T6 and Summit LE have the EBT2 which is a different design entirely. It now regulates the secondary air barometricly. It's a good improvement. That said, on the new stove with the 33' flue I would still block off the boost air and put a key damper in the stove pipe for greater draft reduction. With such a strong draft, boost air is not needed for startups. The key damper will help tame the draft.

(PS: The Enerzone is a good stove too but like the Summit LE, it's an easy breather and will need the same mods to tame the draft and fire. )

 

[EbS-P]

Do you have a picture of the cracks? I’d be figuring out how to get temps down more before I bought a new stove.

 

[northal]

To the questions above:

Highbeam: I close the key damper (flue) and the stove control (damper) all the way shortly after lite up.



Stoveliker: I am concerned!! The dealer and the distributer have both worked on the unit and the only way to keep the temp down is with a much smaller load which equals a smaller burn time.

Begreen: I've read many of your comments about the T6 and wondered if I had a lemon. The EBT air hole was/is blocked with metallic tape after seeing the flap opening at about 1400F. This was the first remedy tried.

The flue has a key damper; the ash dump has been removed and plugged; and the EBT has been replaced and now plugged. Is there anything I/dealer should be checking to see or control to make sure the next stove is controllable?

EbS-P: here they are

 

[begreen]

It looks like you are doing things correctly. I pack the firebox tightly and stay on top of the flue temps, closing down the air pretty aggressively at the beginning of the fire. But that is with 13' less stack then you are operating with. If a manometer test shows draft is >.1 then a second key damper may be required. You could also reduce the closed opening of the primary air intake by 50% by adjusting the stop.

With the new LE models I would consider partially blocking the EBT2 intakes to moderate secondary burn too and perhaps reducing the primary air

FWIW, the cracks don't look too serious. If it were my stove I would consider having them welded unless there is other damage noted. How does the baffle look? There were a series of Summits and T6 from 2008-2009 that had this issue when overfired. Welding worked for Hogwildz IIRC. He may have some thoughts too.

 

[northal]

It looks like you are doing things correctly. I pack the firebox tightly and stay on top of the flue temps, closing down the air pretty aggressively at the beginning of the fire. But that is with 13' less stack then you are operating with. If a manometer test shows draft is >.1 then a second key damper may be required. You could also reduce the closed opening of the primary air intake by 50% by adjusting the stop.

With the new LE models I would consider partially blocking the EBT2 intakes to moderate secondary burn too and perhaps reducing the primary air

FWIW, the cracks don't look too serious. If it were my stove I would consider having them welded unless there is other damage noted. How does the baffle look? There were a series of Summits and T6 from 2008-2009 that had this issue when overfired. Welding worked for Hogwildz IIRC. He may have some thoughts too.

Begreen - thanks and those were the pretty pic - now the ugly ones. Is there a write-up on check the draft (using a manometer) and manometer readings ranges? I'd like to have a discussion with the dealer about it. I have shown them John Gulland's Florida Bungalow article - http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm and now would like to have guildlines/recommendations to show they. Nine foot basement and main floor heights in new builds are very common now, giving a stack height of at least 19 feet to the top of the attic joint (a bungalow). Add a snow roof pitch and above roof clearance, you are in to a stack of plus 30 feet. But I do believe the stove manufacturers need to be more transparent about draft/stack height and prove the tools and adjustments to their products to accommodate the markets they sell in to and leave it up to customer to solve. I still don't know if our problem is the stove or the stack or both!

Right side

Right inside

Left side

 

[EatenByLimestone]

With that much draft, I’d even try shutting down the air before the fire really got going. As soon as the flame started touching the baffle, start shutting down the air.

 

[begreen]

Begreen - thanks and those were the pretty pic - now the ugly ones. Is there a write-up on check the draft (using a manometer) and manometer readings ranges? I'd like to have a discussion with the dealer about it. I have shown them John Gulland's Florida Bungalow article - http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm and now would like to have guildlines/recommendations to show they. Nine foot basement and main floor heights in new builds are very common now, giving a stack height of at least 19 feet to the top of the attic joint (a bungalow). Add a snow roof pitch and above roof clearance, you are in to a stack of plus 30 feet. But I do believe the stove manufacturers need to be more transparent about draft/stack height and prove the tools and adjustments to their products to accommodate the markets they sell in to and leave it up to customer to solve. I still don't know if our problem is the stove or the stack or both!

Right side
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Right inside
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Left side
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That's why I asked about other damage. Any stove pushed that hard is going to deteriorate quicker than normal. It looks like it gave about a good 15? yr. run. It's repairable, the stove is not going to fall apart, but it's up to you to decide what is next. FWIW, our 2008 T6 shows none of these issues so far.

You are right about manufacturers needing to spec out acceptable draft range. If not in the manual then at least the dealers should have this information. It's only in a few good manuals. Typically acceptable draft is between about .04 and .1" depending on the stove. Some want an even smaller range.

I agree that stove manufacturers need to provide better solutions for high draft situations. When I see a stack over 25' tall I am on the lookout for draft related issues. A couple of years ago we had an engineer that lost a Regency insert to very strong draft on a tall flue liner. He asked a lot of good questions and was determined to not repeat the problem with his replacement insert, a PE Summit. You can look up his first postings that describe the woes, then irritation at losing a fairly new stove to overfiriing. He took the time to thoroughly instrument his new insert and flue and fine tuned it from that point on. This is above and beyond what most dealers will do, but he ended up with a successful and controllable fire. Note that this is an insert so some of the locations for the boost air and EBT may be different from the freestanding stoves.

Initial Draft Readings for Pacific Energy Summit LE Insert - Cause for Concern?

Hello. I have all the instrumentation for the new Pacific Energy Summit LE Insert up and running. I have some initial readings from a fire today, just to see how things are woking. It is 50 degrees outside and no wind. With my prior installation my draft was very high (measured > 0.2) and...

www.hearth.com

 

[northal]

That's why I asked about other damage. Any stove pushed that hard is going to deteriorate quicker than normal. It looks like it gave about a good 15? yr. run. It's repairable, the stove is not going to fall apart, but it's up to you to decide what is next. FWIW, our 2008 T6 shows none of these issues so far.

You are right about manufacturers needing to spec out acceptable draft range. If not in the manual then at least the dealers should have this information. It's only in a few good manuals. Typically acceptable draft is between about .04 and .1" depending on the stove. Some want an even smaller range.

I agree that stove manufacturers need to provide better solutions for high draft situations. When I see a stack over 25' tall I am on the lookout for draft related issues. A couple of years ago we had an engineer that lost a Regency insert to very strong draft on a tall flue liner. He asked a lot of good questions and was determined to not repeat the problem with his replacement insert, a PE Summit. You can look up his first postings that describe the woe, then irritation at losing a fairly new stove to overfiriing. He took the time to thoroughly instrument his new insert and flue and fine tuned it from that point on. This is above and beyond what most dealers will do, but he ended up with a successful and controllable fire. Note that this is an insert so some of the locations for the boost air and EBT may be different from the freestanding stoves.

Initial Draft Readings for Pacific Energy Summit LE Insert - Cause for Concern?

Hello. I have all the instrumentation for the new Pacific Energy Summit LE Insert up and running. I have some initial readings from a fire today, just to see how things are woking. It is 50 degrees outside and no wind. With my prior installation my draft was very high (measured > 0.2) and...

www.hearth.com

Begreen: You really know your PEs Yes, the T6 was spec’ed, bought and installed late 2009 as an integral part of our future retirement in rural Ontario. The stove was only used occasionally (mainly shoulder seasons) on the weekends until 2014 when we retired here full time. The stove was supplemental heat for the first few years of retirement and more primary day heating. About 2 ½ chords/year of ash used.

In the early 2010’s after little response from the dealer, I contacted PE directly. I talked to technical support and explained what I though was the issue. I suggested modifying the stove control and adding a key damper, much the same as the suggestions in this post. Cathy, the PE technical rep read me the riot act and that any modifications including adding a key damper would void the warranty, insurance and violated Federal regulations. Since that time, PE has not returned any calls or responded to any written correspondence.

Once living here fulltime along with a dealership management changing, the dealer has been very helpful making the modifications as listed above. The temp has gone down but nowhere near the temps T6s should be running at. The dealer has run out of off the shelf solutions other than swapping out the stove for a Summit LE or a Enerzone 3.5, at a cost.

When asked which unit will solve the controllability issues, the dealer replied “ To be fair and without having a crystal ball I would not be able to answer the question of which unit “solves” controllability. We have many of the Summit units as well as the Enerzone 3.5 installed in the field and they are operating as intended with no issues. As you know all install applications are different and unfortunately without installing the unit in the location and testing it I am not sure that anyone would be able to predict the outcome. Both units are great stoves. I think it would be best to research each of them and then make an informed decision.”

As part of my ‘research’ homework, I came to the best woodstove knowledge base – the members of Hearth.com. You have given me a lot of info for the Summit and I really thank you for that. I will be sharing it with the dealer.

In addition, I have reached out to both PE and Enerzone/SBI. I have requested PE’s overdraft solutions directly from their website as there is no contact phone number for customers. I’m still waiting for a reply.

Enerzone has a phone number and the information was great. Martin was able to discuss in detail the solutions for the Enerzone 3.5 in an overdraft environment. It was refreshing to have the conversation.

I still prefer the Summit with a 20” n/s load, the baffle/firebox and smaller footprint. But not having to watch the thermostat all the time, longer burn times and seemingly better manufacturer customer care/customer comments, the 3.5 is inching up there.

When I walked into dealership to buy a top line, long lasting, family friendly wood burning system, I never envisioned that I was embarking on a decade and a half science experiment nightmare. While there are still questions, there now seems to be solutions that may work to bring this to end.

Thanks and may your fires be long and controlled!!

Al

 

[stoveliker]

That second dealer sounds like a keeper. Not over promising and honest.

There are folks with two key dampers, if you haven't tried that it might be good to do that from the getgo with any new stove.

 

[begreen]

I learned a lot from Tom Oyen where I bought my stove. He was the foremost US PE dealer and a friend.

Having read Gulland's suggestions, one simple thing to try is to reduce the flue size at the cap if it's accessible. A stainless 6"x 5" reducer and 5" cap will slow down the draft a bit. Bholler reports that in cases like yours he sometimes has to install a second key damper.

 

[kborndale]

Sometimes on stoves with tall flues a second damper is needed.

 

[Todd]

Pipe dampers can’t completely shut down the exhaust. They are a bit less than the diameter of the pipe and also have gaps where the rod passes through. Some people modify the pipe damper to allow a tighter more complete shut down of the exhaust.

 

[stoveliker]

One should be careful with that, though, as the goal is not to completely shut down the exhaust; at that point the gases end up in the home.
Instead, the goal is to increase the impedance of the flow through the flue, so that the flow speed goes down even when the draft (pressure difference) is high.

A second key damper seems like a better solution to me (if there is place to mount it), because it results in a more tunable flow in the system as compared to a more restrictive single damper.

 

[bigealta]

i'd definitely try the 6" to 5" reducer that begreen suggested. Simple, cheap, and easy to both install and remove if it doesn't help.

 

[EbS-P]

One should be careful with that, though, as the goal is not to completely shut down the exhaust; at that point the gases end up in the home.
Instead, the goal is to increase the impedance of the flow through the flue, so that the flow speed goes down even when the draft (pressure difference) is high.

A second key damper seems like a better solution to me (if there is place to mount it), because it results in a more tunable flow in the system as compared to a more restrictive single damper.

This is what it can take to tame a two story insulated liner. Blocking off as much as you can.

Yes. Here is a look bottom up after installation. I did listen to your suggestions!

View attachment 299844

 

[stoveliker]

Yes. My emphasis was on "complete". I know it said more complete.
My point was that doing that might result in a less tunable system as compared to having two dampers that each can be set.
Trial and error getting the right metal structure is not nearly as convenient as mounting two.
In the end it's a managing of impedance to gas flow, and that can be done nicely by more dampers if there is sufficient space to do so.