need some help

[mousetrapgal]

This forum seems to have a lot of knowledgable people so I am asking for advice....
Here's my situation: We have a vacation home in the Poconos (Pa). It is a log cabin approx 2100 sf. The original house was a rancher and the previous owners added a large addition. Last season we updated the original fireplace with a Lopi freedom insert. That heats the original part of the house very well (too well sometimes we have to open windows). Exiting the room where the fireplace sits is a doorway into the addition. It is a large room of mostly windows. The primary heat comes in two forms, the original section of the house is cast iron radiators (which I love), the addition has forced air heat. For some reason the previous owners continued the forced air heat into the old section of the house.
So...I don't ever turn on the cast iron radiators because the fireplace does its job. We spend the majority of our time in the addition (tv pool table etc) That room is a good 10 degrees cooler. If I turn on the heat in that room, it heats the whole house and not only is that a waste but sections that are warmed by the fireplace are now way too hot. I have tried the door jam corner fans, ceiling fans etc to circulate the warm air and nothing is really working.
My question is: is there a way to run duct work from the fireplace and vent it into the other room. I have heard of this before but I think it may only be for gas fireplaces. If that can't be done I guess I will have to get another unit for the family room. If that is the case can anyone recommend a zero clearance unit. I would like to build a fake fireplace hearth in the corner (the only wall to put anything on). Can this be done or does it have to be a true masonary space? wow, that was long, any ideas greatly appreciated.

 

[begreen]

Hi there, welcome mtg,

It sounds like an odd hybrid. I can't understand why there would be both hot water and hot air heating systems, usually one replaces the other. Perhaps you have a hydronic heat exchanger installed in the new section?? Is there a basement? Are there two furnaces in the basement or one?

Have a good heating contractor go over options with you. Ask the heating contractor to explain what type of heating system you have (whether you have a hot water or hot air system or both). And ask him what it would take to zone the system so that the new and the old each have their own separate thermostats. That way the two sections will heat independently. If the system is zoned you will be able to turn down (or up) one zone and the other won't automatically cool (or heat).

Very often, a heat transfer duct doesn't work that well due to heat losses in the pipe. There are also some safety issues and it can be overkill. How large is the doorway between the old and new sections? The next time you have a serious fire burning, as an experiment, try this. With the insert burning, take a table fan or a box fan and set it in the doorway (on low speed) and face it into the fireplace room so that it is blowing cool air into that room from the other section. That may create an adequate circulation pattern to even out the fireplace insert heat. If it works, you can refine the solution, perhaps with a doorway corner fan. But if the opening is large enough, and the fan isn't in the way, you may just choose to run it that way.

 

[mousetrapgal]

thanks for the advice. The doorway is just a regular size door opening. I think talking to a contractor is a good idea. There are two furnaces in the basement. I do want to look into getting another unit in the family room. So I need to know if a zero clearance can be installed in a "fake" hearth.

 

[begreen]

I'd consider a free-standing stove. You'll have lots to choose from and will get more heat from it. And it should be a bit less expensive to install.

 

[Gooserider]

How high are the ceilings on each side of the walls over the door? I assume the door is standard height? My thought is that some folks have reported getting benefits from putting a "transom window" over the door way, possibly with a fan in it blowing from the room with the stove into the other space. (May not be needed) This is particularly helpful if both rooms are high ceilinged, as the drop down to the door forms a natural barrier to heat flow.

Remember that you need to make a "circuit" such that hot air flows from the stove area into the other spaces, and cold air can flow back. The idea with the transom window is that it lets the hot air flow away from the stove area, and the cold air comes back along the floor, through the doorway into the stove space.

Not sure this would work, but it's a thought. I'd try putting a fan blowing from as high in the stove room as I could get it, through the door into the other space, and see if that helps. If it does, then a transom might be a good solution.

Gooserider

 

[Eric Johnson]

That's good advice on getting some professional guidance. Most heating systems tend to be oversized, especially those that predate insulation. The presence of two separate heating systems in your house suggests that one wasn't working and somebody put in the other one to try to compensate. Maybe somebody who knew what they were doing, and maybe not. Your best bet is to get a professional heat loss analysis for the entire house and take it from there. You're almost guaranteed to save a ton of money over the long haul.

 

[mousetrapgal]

thanks for the advice. A transom window is something to look into. However, I don't think the space is large enough from the top of the door to the ceiling. I will look at it next time I am up there.

 

[kjklosek]

There must be some way to either turn off(close) the ducts or the radiators so that just the one(s) you want will be in use.

May take some poking around in the furnace room but most duct work will have a damper that you can use to shut down or completley close off that branch. Same for the radiators.

Need more info to really get to the best solution.

J.P.

 

[Gooserider]

thanks for the advice. The doorway is just a regular size door opening. I think talking to a contractor is a good idea. There are two furnaces in the basement. I do want to look into getting another unit in the family room. So I need to know if a zero clearance can be installed in a "fake" hearth.

Nobody seems to have picked up on this so I will tackle it... There are two types of units that some folks will refer to as "zero clearance" One is actually not a ZC unit at all, but is an insert designed to be stuck into an existing fireplace, normally a regular masonry or prefab unit, though some may be able to go into a pre-existing ZC unit. They CAN NOT be installed without a "real" fireplace around them.

The second are actual prefab "zero clearance" fireplaces, which are available these days in either "builder box" non-EPA, inefficient polluter styles, or as "EPA approved heaters" which are just about as efficient as free standing stoves, and some even come with duct attachements to help distribute the heat to other areas of the house. While primarily used in new construction, these units CAN be retrofit to existing structures, and are designed to be used with a "fake hearth"

So the answer is yes, there are units that can be installed that way, however I wouldn't particularly advise it. The units themselves aren't cheap, they typically require "Major (spelled "expen$ive") Surgery" to install, and more expensive hardware, and then have the further expense of whatever enclosure they are used with.

A free standing stove will cost about the same or maybe a bit less for the unit itself, be far simpler to install, using less expensive hardware, and doesn't need to be enclosed, so you will spend far less money, and at the same time, many folks will argue that a free standing stove will give more heat for a given size unit.

Gooserider

 

[begreen]

as mentioned, consider a free standing stove. if it were my house, that's what I'd be putting in. (after I checked out the heating systems.)

 

[mousetrapgal]

wood stoves definitely are great for heat. I replaced a ventless gas firelplace with a hearthstone tribute in a florida room. That room is 30 degrees in the winter, but with the stove going for a few hours it gets up to 68-70. My issue with a stove in the family room is I don't want to see the pipe/chimney. I would rather have it hidden and put cultured stone up to the ceiling.

well I was trying to post a pic of the tribute but I can't figure out how to resize it so forget it.

 

[Gooserider]

wood stoves definitely are great for heat. I replaced a ventless gas firelplace with a hearthstone tribute in a florida room. That room is 30 degrees in the winter, but with the stove going for a few hours it gets up to 68-70. My issue with a stove in the family room is I don't want to see the pipe/chimney. I would rather have it hidden and put cultured stone up to the ceiling.

well I was trying to post a pic of the tribute but I can't figure out how to resize it so forget it.

It would be more expensive to do, but you believe you COULD do what you describe w/ a free standing stove setup. If you brought your chimney down using Class A "zero clearance" pipe all the way, put a "T" in it at the right height and plugged a rear-exit stove into the "T" then you could put a "chase" around the pipe with whatever finish treatment on it that you wanted. (You would have to figure out how to build in access to the cleanout, but that would be doable. Another alternative might be to build an "alcove install" with a top exit stove, and the appropriate clearance reduction shielding (which can be made from non combustible stone) This would leave pipe showing for only the clearance distance between the stove top and the alcove.

Another option I've seen in a lot of pictures that I personally think looks nice, and goes well is to use stone to make the hearth, and continue the stone up the wall behind the stove leaving the pipe exposed in front. The pipe could either go straight up to the ceiling box (preferable) or go up a short distance to an elbow going to a thimble that connects you to an exterior stack. This approach could even be done low and connect to a rear exit stove. It does leave you with an exterior stack which is less desirable from a draft standpoint, and will collect more creosote, but will work. (You might want to build an outside chase around it for cosmetic reasons) If you design it right, this can even reduce your clearance requirements and get the stove closer to the wall. Lots of people must like this sort of setup as it's one that shows up in a fair number of stove catalogs :coolsmile:

Gooserider

 

[mousetrapgal]

you're right gooserider, I just looked at the gallery of pics on here. The pipe doesn't look as bad if there's some kind of stone or tile behind it. Good idea.

ps. I figured out how to resize my tribute pic.

 

[begreen]

Ah, great picture. Now I can see why you are concerned about the piping look. That is a pretty dominant pipe on the Tribute. What's the area where you want to put the other stove like? Can you post a picture of that spot? Will the pipe have to have a long offset like the Fla room or will it be able to go straight up?

 

[mousetrapgal]

First of all thank you for being so helpful. Here is a pic of the room. Currently there is an entertainment unit in that corner that I will remove. The room is on the first floor with a bedroom above. I guess I could run the pipe all the way up through the bedroom also. Maybe box in that corner? Or I would have to have it go outside before the ceiling and run up the side of the house. I know it has to be something like 3 feet above the roof line. What do people usually do with their chimney pipes that are exposed outside? It's one thing to come out the roof, but going up the side of the house is kind of ugly.

 

[Gooserider]

Yes, you could do a box in the corner around the pipe. You'd have to use the right grade of pipe, and there are clearance requirements, but they aren't unreasonable. As long as you are willing to give up the floor space in the bedroom, this would be the best way to go, as interior chimneys are much better functioning than exterior ones, and it gives you that many less bends, which is also a good thing.

The only issue, which would still be a problem with an outside pipe, is how high / steep is the roof over the bedroom? The pipe is going to have to stick up at least high enough to make the 10-3-2 rule, which could be pretty far if you have a steep pitch roof. (10-3-2 rule = 3 feet above the roof where the pipe comes out, and 2 feet above any structure within 10 feet of the exit point) Tall stacks aren't a big issue to build, but they do require bracing and possibly the addition of "crickets" in heavy snow areas. Neither is a huge issue, but they do need to be planned for.

Gooserider

 

[restorer]

Now to throw a wrench into the machinery of thought, but have you considered a small free standing pellet stove? The pipe issue is gone, as you can direct vent, the fuel while more than wood is still reasonable, and they stove can be thermostatically controlled. There are lots of choices for style, you may be surprised how attractive they can be.

 

[mousetrapgal]

Thanks for the thought, but we have our mind set on wood. We have 2 other wood units in the house, we have a local guy we buy from and he stacks it for us etc. Pellets would just be something else to buy. I appreciate the input.

 

[Gooserider]

Another message relayed - w/ typing fixes...

A couple observations here:

One, most people make the mistake of trying to move warm air which is lighter, but cooler heavy air resists the intrusion of warm air. What may work is moving or directing cooler floor level air towards the stove; warmer lighter air then will try to replace the extracted cooler air..

Second, it appears there are two heating systems in the home. Probably the air system serves a dual purpose of heat and AC and the older section has cast iron forced hot water. Since it appears that the hot air system is one zone and covers the space they want more heat in and does not need to heat the wood stove area is it possible to split the existing hot air system with a zone damper? Install an additional thermostat in the area that they want the heat? There fore not heating the other room or rooms.

Gooserider

 

[mousetrapgal]

So I am thinking I will try to run the pipe straight up through the roof. Anyone have an opinion on the Vermont Castings Defiant? I want something with a log legnth of at least 20" and a box big enough for overnight burns. I like my Hearthstone Tribute, but its a pain trying to put the tiny pieces of wood in there. It only holds logs of 16" (so they say, its really more like 12")>

 

[begreen]

The Defiant is a nice, serious stove. I'd also look at the Jotul Oslo (F500)and the Quadrafire Isle Royale. You'll find that these two stoves have much better corner clearances so the stove and hearth will not project as far into the room. How large is the room? Will this stove be doubling as a whole house heater? Another stove to look at that has superb corner clearances is the Pacific Energy Alderlea.

PS: Here's a shot of our Castine in a corner installation.

 

[mousetrapgal]

that's a nice stove you have. The room is 527 sf. but lots of windows. Far end of the room has stairs leading to a bedroom. Can I expect any of the heat to radiate upstairs? The stove will be at the oppostie side of the room than the stairs. I am basing my choices on the two fireplace dealers in the area. Neither has Jotul, pacific energy. I did look at the quad isle. I like it but it looks expensive. Yes, I would like the combo of this stove and my Lopi Freedom to heat the whole house if possible. Having to tend to two fireplaces is no big deal since whenever we are at the house we are on vacation.

 

[begreen]

Yes, some heat will head upstairs assuming there are no blockages like doors in the way. Given the room size, getting too big a stove might drive you out of the room. That cancels out the Isle Royale, but the Quad Cumberland might work. What is the nearest big town or city? There are a lot of PE dealers listed on the PE website for PA state. I think an Alderlea T5 would be a nice fit. Actually the Jotul Castine we have would also work well as might a VC Encore catalytic stove (with greater corner clearances).

 

[mousetrapgal]

I did check the PE website and there are some dealers in Pa, none are close at all. Its a shame, they are really nice units. I know what you mean about being heated right out of the room. I should probably get a smaller unit, but I hate those little log sizes and I don't think I could get it to burn all night, not sure. I did just look at the Encore and it is very nice. I don't know why I didn't see it before.

 

[begreen]

The Encore is nice looking. It also is thermostatically controlled which will help in the small room. FWIW, I'm also seeing about 6 Jotul dealers in the vicinity.


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