Need help for meeting clearances in small fireplace - can I make a stove happen in 2012?!?!?!

[KennyK]

Happy New Year Everyone!

I posted a thread a month or so ago and got LOTS of help and great advice, however, I still haven't been able to find a stove/solution for my situation. I live in a home built in the late 1890s and I have a VERY small fireplace with a tight mantle. I would love to put a stove in front of it or partially in (or an insert), but I just can't find anything that meets my clearances. I'd rather not remove my mantle and do all the work involved in reconstructing a wall, but I'd be happy to extend my hearth (especially if I can do so easily). I'd love a stove with a 2.0 firebox with a nice big viewing window, but at this point, if I can get anything in there to at least create some warmth and glow, that would be great.

Here attached are my measurements, and a couple photos. I hope you all can help me

Fireplace Opening:
30" Height X 30" Width at opening
19-1/2" Width at back
14-3/4" Deep at top

Mantle:
From one side (inside) of the mantle to the other is 42 inches
From the bottom of the fireplace to the bottom of mantle is 35 inches.

Thanks!
Kenny

 

[webby3650]

You are not gonna be able to fit an insert in with redoing that mantle, that would be a shame anyway. You will have to extend that hearth, but a stove should fit ok. If you put the rear shield on and the short leg kit and possibly a mantle shield the Jotul Castine would look real nice!
(broken link removed to http://www.jotul.com/en-us/wwwjotulus/Main-menu/Products/Wood/Wood-stoves/Jotul-F-400-Castine/)

 

[begreen]

The woodwork is still an issue with the Castine due to the woodwork proximity and the clearance requirements for the stove. Unfortunately, without addressing this issue, the options are very limited, especially with the shallow fireplace. I think I would strongly consider putting in a classic natural gas insert like a Valor instead. Or perhaps block off the fireplace and tap in on the backside of the chimney, then put a stove in the adjacent room? Not sure if that is a possibility, this is just process thinking.

Previous thread with dimensions is located here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/83227/

Here's an image that illustrates the issue. It's for the homestead, but gives one a sense of scale here for other stoves. It's a tough location for a woodstove unless the mantle assembly is replaced.

 

[webby3650]

I was thinkin the stove would be brought out on the hearth, increasing the distance from the wood. It might be closer than I thought though.

 

[begreen]

Yes, the room and fireplace look larger than they really are. And the fireplace is very shallow. I was thinking about a Quadrafire Yosemite, but the side door would need to be locked because of the right-side clearance.

Currently I'm looking at the Jotul F100. It has fairly close clearances listed with a chimney connected stove installation. This might work with a mantle shield so it is currently my front runner. Would that work for you Kenny?

 

[KennyK]

I just measured the room (which is our dining room), to give everyone a better sense of what I'm working with. It's 14 feet X 14 feet, with a 9 foot ceiling (and a ceiling fan). I don't think that would be considered a small room. What would you all say? Medium? One side of the room opens to the kitchen with a doorway with no door attached and the other side opens up to the living room with a big opening about the size of three regular doors (totally open).

As Webby3650 wrote, what about the idea of extending the hearth and simply putting the stove a little further out from the wall giving me enough clearance in front of the mantle? As a novice, I've had a lot of trouble understanding how much distance I would actually need to the mantle. I did notice that the Lopi endeavor claims that it has the closest clearances of any stove (and I like the big firebox and window)(broken link removed to http://www.lopistoves.com/productuide/detail.aspx?id=209).

What would I need to do to make this work (whether with the endeavor or another stove)? My whole house is about 2000 square feet, and at this point I'm happy to heat either just the first floor or more. I just checked my heating bill (gas) for December and it was $319, and it's been a VERY mild December in Boston.

Thanks!

Kenny

 

[webby3650]

I just measured the room (which is our dining room), to give everyone a better sense of what I'm working with. It's 14 feet X 14 feet, with a 9 foot ceiling (and a ceiling fan). I don't think that would be considered a small room. What would you all say? Medium? One side of the room opens to the kitchen with a doorway with no door attached and the other side opens up to the living room with a big opening about the size of three regular doors (totally open).

As Webby3650 wrote, what about the idea of extending the hearth and simply putting the stove a little further out from the wall giving me enough clearance in front of the mantle? As a novice, I've had a lot of trouble understanding how much distance I would actually need to the mantle. I did notice that the Lopi endeavor claims that it has the closest clearances of any stove (and I like the big firebox and window)(broken link removed to http://www.lopistoves.com/productuide/detail.aspx?id=209).

What would I need to do to make this work (whether with the endeavor or another stove)? My whole house is about 2000 square feet, and at this point I'm happy to heat either just the first floor or more. I just checked my heating bill (gas) for December and it was $319, and it's been a VERY mild December in Boston.

Thanks!

Kenny

The Endeavor has a top outlet. You are gonna be limited to Cast iron stoves, not a problem though. Most iron stoves have a reversible flue collar and would compliment you fireplace much better!

 

[KennyK]

Regarding top outlet, do you mean that I need a stove with a rear outlet?

Also, why am I limited to cast iron stoves?

Again, I'm a novice who has never had a wood stove, thus my very basic questions! If you can give me any specific ideas on how I can make a wood stove setup work in this spot and what stove might both work and be a good option for me, that would be greatly appreciated! My house is about 2000 square feet, if I could heat the whole house that would be wonderful, but if unrealistic and I could simply heat my first floor (or supplement my heat), that would be great too!

Thanks!

 

[KennyK]

Yes, the room and fireplace look larger than they really are. And the fireplace is very shallow. I was thinking about a Quadrafire Yosemite, but the side door would need to be locked because of the right-side clearance.

Currently I'm looking at the Jotul F100. It has fairly close clearances listed with a chimney connected stove installation. This might work with a mantle shield so it is currently my front runner. Would that work for you Kenny?

As always, Be Green, thank you for being on the case. The F100 looks like a beautiful stove, and while it's smaller than I'd ideally want, perhaps I will never get what I ideally want based on my clearances. With this stove, I could probably heat the whole first floor where we spend most of our time anyway. I just checked on craigslist and there's a very clean F100 in my area that's about 5 years old for $450, so perhaps I should make a move. Do you think I could make it work with this one regarding clearances? If so, what would I need to do to make it work? Put down a hearthpad and pull the stove out far enough so the mantle wouldn't be an issue? As I'm very "green" (pun intended) the more help you can offer, the better. Also, you mentioned a mantle shield, I didn't find anything about a mantle shield on Jotul's website, so any more info on that would be great too.

Thanks!

Kenny

 

[webby3650]

That sounds like a good deal on that F100. Have you looked into a liner for the flue at all? This is something you will have to do, I haven't heard you mention this, just thought I'd ask.

 

[begreen]

Look on page 12 of the manual for the F100 clearances. Fireplace clearances are listed at the bottom of the page.

Before jumping on the used model, I have to ask if this stove would be more satisfactory than say the Lopi Answer or the Regency 1200. Both of those stoves have larger fireboxes than the F100 and can be dealer installed. Do you have an installer lined up for a used stove?

My feeling right now is that you should work with a dealer. The Regency I1200 will have a larger firebox than the F100. I would also have a Lopi dealer see if the Answer would install. If so that would get you up to 1.6 cu ft. stove.

 

[KennyK]

As I've mentioned, I'd like as a big a firebox as possible that would work with my set up, so perhaps the Answer would be a better bet. I just left a message for a dealer in my area, so I'll keep you updated. I've spoken with two Regency dealers that have told me that the i1200 wouldn't work. They were referring to the insert, so perhaps a freestanding regency would.

I'm still a bit confused about what webby3650 wrote about me needing to have a cast iron stove, especially in light of BeGreen's suggestion of the Regency and Lopi as I believe they are both steel stoves.

Regarding installation, there are a number of people in the Boston area that do installs. Some are dealers and some are independent chimney workers.

Kenny

 

[webby3650]

As I've mentioned, I'd like as a big a firebox as possible that would work with my set up, so perhaps the Answer would be a better bet. I just left a message for a dealer in my area, so I'll keep you updated. I've spoken with two Regency dealers that have told me that the i1200 wouldn't work. They were referring to the insert, so perhaps a freestanding regency would.

I'm still a bit confused about what webby3650 wrote about me needing to have a cast iron stove, especially in light of BeGreen's suggestion of the Regency and Lopi as I believe they are both steel stoves.

Regarding installation, there are a number of people in the Boston area that do installs. Some are dealers and some are independent chimney workers.

Kenny

The stoves mentioned above are inserts, they are steel. I was referring to freestanding stoves. The flue collar's bolt onto cast stoves, and are welded onto steel stoves, with only 30" to deal with, you won't have room to 90 off the top of the stove. Steel stoves usually have much closer clearances due to the heat shielding available. There might be some steel "hearth stoves" out there with rear exits, not real sure about that. How straight is the flue, is it clay lined? Some of these old flues can take some crazy turns that make it hard to get the liner down.

 

[KennyK]

Okay Fire-Loving Friends, I may be starting to make some progress. I finally found a full service stove dealership in my area where they actually seem responsive, helpful and knowledgeable

The owner suggested the following - raising my mantle 2.5 to 3 inches, filling that space on top with a non-combustible material and then installing the Jotul C450. He said that this stove meets my clearances on the sides, and is only 2.5" short of meeting it on the top. The stove will also be a bit wide in back, but he said that he can probably fix this easily with a little bit of brick grinding. This is very similar to a solution that BeGreen suggested (as well as suggesting the Jotul C450 as a possibility) a while back!

Any thoughts on this move? Potential pitfalls? Questions to ask of the dealer?

I'm waiting for an estimate today and will keep you all updated!

I have also been playing with another idea that BeGreen suggested a while back of putting a free standing stove in the room next to the room with the fireplace, cutting into the wall and backside of the chimney. This same dealer said that that is possible, but would be much more expensive between the necessary thimble and labor involved. That said, I'd love thoughts on this idea too.

Kenny

 

[fredarm]

Sounds like a definite possibility. Can you use a mantel shield to avoid raising the mantel? If you raise the mantel, will you raise the whole thing including the sides? You can add some wood at the bottom and stain it to match.

 

[KennyK]

Sounds like a definite possibility. Can you use a mantel shield to avoid raising the mantel? If you raise the mantel, will you raise the whole thing including the sides? You can add some wood at the bottom and stain it to match.

I believe that raising the mantel was what is necessary WITH the mantel shield. The mantel is one solid piece, so, as you suggested, I would raise the whole thing by three inches and add some wood at the bottom, stain to match and put a piece of non-combustible material in the three inch gap that we'd create between the marble fireplace surround and the mantel.

 

[begreen]

That's great to hear that you've found a dealer willing to think outside of the box. It's good to think through all options before committing. Keep us posted and sit down before getting the estimate.

I would be surprised if the freestanding was hugely more expensive. True, there is the labor for installing a thimble, but so will there be for raising the mantel and filling in that area so that it looks right. Both alternatives need a liner. Freestanding stoves usually cost a bit less, though they do need a hearth which can add hundreds if purchased. But go ahead and have them give you an estimate. Do they sell only Jotul? If so, ask if they have pricing yet for the Jotul F55 coming out in February.

 

[KennyK]

It's a good thing BeGreen told me to sit down when I got the estimate

Jotul c450: $2507 (with a discount of approx. 10%)
Mantel shield: $73
6" x 35' 316Ti stainless steel liner system (Homesaver ultra pro .006): $899
Complete installation including minor masonry work to make insert fit: $900
18"x48" micore hearth extension: $99
Optional liner installation: $350
Permit from the city of Boston: $100
Tax: $229.88

TOTAL: $4807.88 or $5157.88 with liner insulation

HOLY &$@&!!

This doesn't include the work to raise my mantel, for which I will use my own carpenter. I am meeting my carpenter to talk about this and/or other possibilities next week.

So, bottom line, I don't have five grand plus to drop right now. Part of me is getting discouraged and part of me is getting more determined I'm strongly considering taking off my mantel altogether. I know some people here have told me that would be a shame as it's a beautiful old mantel, but I have a lot of beautiful old wood work in my house and most of it would still remain. I'm feeling like the move might be a extend my hearth, raise (if possible and still make clearances) or remove my mantel and put a good free standing stove in front of the fireplace. After getting this pricing, I'm thinking about either doing the install myself or hiring a chimney company that might charge me less than a dealer. Perhaps a used stove too. Thoughts?

Lastly, if I do remove my mantel, do I need to put up a non-combustible material around the wall, or just get the stove a sufficient distance from the wall?

People here are so helpful, and I can really use the help

Thanks, thanks, thanks

KennyK

 

[begreen]

No surprises there. That's a fair estimate and about what I expect it to be. So far this sounds like a dealer that is trying to do this correctly so that you have a safe, stove for many years to come. The only change I would make would be to drop down to a 5.5" liner due to the very tall chimney. Be careful with cut-rate quotes, they can often lead to cut-rate work.

 

[KennyK]

No surprises there. That's a fair estimate and about what I expect it to be. So far this sounds like a dealer that is trying to do this correctly so that you have a safe, stove for many years to come. The only change I would make would be to drop down to a 5.5" liner due to the very tall chimney. Be careful with cut-rate quotes, they can often lead to cut-rate work.

I appreciate the words of wisdom, and I agree, the most important thing is not to cut corners and to keep things safe. That said, it's still a lot of money, and perhaps I could get a professional who is not a dealer to give me a better rate, or do some or all of the work myself, as many people here seem to encourage. Thoughts?

Also, from what I can tell, there seem to be many people here that feel that a free standing stove is a better move than an insert. If I do decide to remove my mantel and extend my hearth, I believe I could have more freedom to get a more ideal stove for my house (perhaps the new f55, or a good used deal on something else). One thing that I'm not clear on - if I remove my mantel, do I need to add a non-combustible material to the wall, or just get the stove far enough in front of the wall to meet safe clearances (which on the f55, I believe is very close)?

 

[delp]

the wall is probably horse-hair plaster, right? if so, question is, is hh plaster considered a combustible; and, is it on lath or right on brick?

best of luck!!

 

[KennyK]

the wall is probably horse-hair plaster, right? if so, question is, is hh plaster considered a combustible; and, is it on lath or right on brick?

best of luck!!

I think you're right delp, judging from some other walls that I've gotten into in the house, it probably is horse hair plaster. The bathroom wall, which I recently opened up was on lath, my guess is this is on lath too, but the brick might not be far behind.

 

[delp]

my home is from 1896 and i've got enough horse hair plaster to start a horse race...i've got/had it right on the brick with no lath, especially exterior walls and my behemouth, 6 flue chimney. it's probably non-combustible, but find out for sure!

 

[KennyK]

my home is from 1896 and i've got enough horse hair plaster to start a horse race...i've got/had it right on the brick with no lath, especially exterior walls and my behemouth, 6 flue chimney. it's probably non-combustible, but find out for sure!

Interesting, how does one find out if it is combustible? And if it isn't, does that mean I don't need to worry about clearances? If it is, do I need to put up a shield or just meet further distances for clearance?

 

[delp]

i'm pretty sure plaster is non-combustible and stove specs are about "distance to combustibles" and the required r-value under the stove. i just sent you a PM after a quick google search. there are some fire fighters and many folk way more knowledgeable than me here who can probably confirm the plaster/shield question.