Need advice for choosing an insert

[Autumnknight]

Hello, this is my first post here. I have been browsing here for the last week, and I must say there is a lot of good info here!

I live in eastern Washington state, where it gets fairly cold in the winter. My house is a rancher, and is about 1300 square feet, and built in the early 70's. I have a difficult time keeping my house comfortable in the winter, and my gas bills typically go over $200/month once the weather gets cold.

I currently have a regular, masonry fireplace, which I had cleaned earlier this year. The sweep brought to my attention that the interior of the chimney was not in good shape, and it was going to be fairly expensive to fix it.

That didn't make any sense to me, to fix a chimney for something that isn't very useful, so I started thinking about putting an insert in. So now, here we are in October, and I am still thinking about this. I think I understand the differences between gas, pellet and wood burning inserts as far as advantages and disadvantages. I would like to get away from gas, as that is the most significant part of my heat bill, and every year the utility company raises natural gas rates.

So that leaves either pellet or wood. Pellets seem to be more environmentally friendly, but you have to have electricity to run it, and at least one of the pellet stoves I saw, the flame is "different". Pellet inserts are also more expensive than a wood burning insert.

I have only looked at Quadra Fire so far. They have a plant nearby where they produce the stoves, and several people I know mention them as far as being good quality.

My house isn't terribly big, so I don't need a massive stove. The chimney sweep had recommended a Quadrafire 2700i, which is their smallest insert. He also said I would likely not need a blower, as my living room would be quite warm without it, and if I turn on my furnace fan, I could probably heat the whole house.

I would really appreciate some advice on what type of insert to get, and then specific models to look at. Thanks in advance!

Steve

 

[jtp10181]

If you go with wood, how do you plan on getting it? Do you have a dry out of the weather place to store 2+ tons of pellets? (One ton is usually 40 bags on a 4x4 pallet)

The Quad 2700I would be a a good choice if you do go with wood.

 

[titan]

If you buy an insert,cough up the extra $200 bones for a blower;you won't regret it.

 

[wg_bent]

Hello, this is my first post here. I have been browsing here for the last week, and I must say there is a lot of good info here!

I live in eastern Washington state, where it gets fairly cold in the winter. My house is a rancher, and is about 1300 square feet, and built in the early 70's. I have a difficult time keeping my house comfortable in the winter, and my gas bills typically go over $200/month once the weather gets cold.

I currently have a regular, masonry fireplace, which I had cleaned earlier this year. The sweep brought to my attention that the interior of the chimney was not in good shape, and it was going to be fairly expensive to fix it.

That didn't make any sense to me, to fix a chimney for something that isn't very useful, so I started thinking about putting an insert in. So now, here we are in October, and I am still thinking about this. I think I understand the differences between gas, pellet and wood burning inserts as far as advantages and disadvantages. I would like to get away from gas, as that is the most significant part of my heat bill, and every year the utility company raises natural gas rates.

So that leaves either pellet or wood. Pellets seem to be more environmentally friendly, but you have to have electricity to run it, and at least one of the pellet stoves I saw, the flame is "different". Pellet inserts are also more expensive than a wood burning insert.

I have only looked at Quadra Fire so far. They have a plant nearby where they produce the stoves, and several people I know mention them as far as being good quality.


My house isn't terribly big, so I don't need a massive stove. The chimney sweep had recommended a Quadrafire 2700i, which is their smallest insert. He also said I would likely not need a blower, as my living room would be quite warm without it, and if I turn on my furnace fan, I could probably heat the whole house.

I would really appreciate some advice on what type of insert to get, and then specific models to look at. Thanks in advance!

Steve

Welcome Steve. My Quad dealer discouraged the blower also. (I wonder why?) I have an Osburn insert, and looked at the 2700i when shopping. I think you'd be frustrated with the firebox size if your using it for 24/7 heat. If you can fit, the larger 3100i is a better choice, and the blower is key. Actually, I think air movement helps make a room more comfortable, plus the larger firebox can be loaded with less wood.

Get the larger stove. and the blower.

 

[Mike Wilson]

Go to your local dealer, and tell us what else he sells, just to get options. Quad is a good name, as is Pacific Energy, Jotul, and any of the other "majors" that you'll read about here. For overnight burns you'll need a large firebox, I'd aim for something larger than the 2700. Actually, I'd get the largest insert that will fit into your fireplace... my concerns would be having a long enough burn time, and getting enough heat. Remember, you can always open a window, or just load the stove less frequently. Also, getting the blower is a must with an insert, as is having a liner installed in your chimney. It is a waste of money to have an insert without either of these two items. Shop around, and report back to us here as to what you have available to you. Also, photos of your fireplace, and dimensions, will help us.

-- Mike

 

[FireJumper]

What about Harman? They have a pretty nice wood insert that comes with a blower.

(broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/list.asp?id=8&title=Harman%20Wood%20Fireplace%20Inserts)

 

[kalevi]

I have a Pacific Energy Vista insert with blower. My main floor is about 1300 square feet and the unit makes the whole main floor really toasty. Without the blower, I don't think it would be nearly as effective. The problem with the inserts is that unlike a wood stove, only 1 face is exposed to the room so you need the airflow around the insert. There are ducts that do that but the convective flow is slow so the blower really pours the heat out. Another problem with the Vista is that it is small so I can only get about a 6 hour max burn. If you want to heat overnight, you need a bigger insert and get the blower too.

Your other problem is going to be finding dry wood this time of year.

 

[titan]

That's a good lookin' insert....provided that you stay clear of the "many decorative tile options" :roll:

 

[Mr Whitfield]

I like a pellet insert, storage of pellets is easy. My wife does not have to carry wood in to the house, just a bucket of pellets. Just set it and forget it.. the stove can run 24/7. Less work, no wood to cut,split, or to stack...Look for a used one in your area. I have 3 pellet inserts, One in my home in the Bay Area, and 2 in the mountains (Tahoe Area)

 

[MrGriz]

Welcome to the hearth Steve. Whether you go with wood or pellets I think the blower is a must for any insert. It has been tried many times before and using your existing hvac system is not only ineffective but can be dangerous. The biggest problem from a practical standpoint is that there is too much heat loss in the system.

The big decision to make is wood or pellet. There are a few good threads that discuss the strong and weak points of each fuel. Remember, there is also a lifestyle change that goes with burning as your primary source of heat. Since you are using the existing fireplace, I assume you have access to wood. There is considerably more work involved with wood vs pellets. One of the trade offs is that wood can be much less costly (as little as free) than pellets. It is easier to regulate the temperature with a pellet insert. I would also argue the point that pellets are greener than wood as a fuel source.

I would start by choosing the fuel source you want to use and then move on. From there, measure your fireplace dimensions. Identify any clearance to combustible issues you may have. Find out what brands are sold and serviced locally. Narrow down the choices to those that fit in your fireplace and will produce enough heat for your home. Narrow that list to fit the budget and finally select the one that you think looks the best aesthetically. Above all, don't be afraid to ask questions as you go.

 

[BrotherBart]

What about Harman? They have a pretty nice wood insert that comes with a blower.

(broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/list.asp?id=8&title=Harman%20Wood%20Fireplace%20Inserts)

I looked at the Harman Exception insert when I was stove shopping last year. I saw one serious drawback. It is essentially the Exception wood stove without the top loading feature. With the top loading of the free standing version you can use all of the space in that big firebox. With the insert you cannot. Since you have to front load the insert, to fill the firebox you would have to stack wood straight up the front of the firebox into the space above the door height. Not something any sane person would try to do. That is, have a wall of burning wood that would be ready to fall out on the floor should you have to open the door for any reason.

A beautiful insert but a compromised design in my estimation. As to the freestanding version, that is one ass kicking stove.

 

[Autumnknight]

Thank you all for the advice so far! I attached a photo of my fireplace, and the approximate dimensions are as follows:
It is 22.5" deep, the opening at the front is 34.5" across, and at the back it is about 27" across. The opening is 25" tall. It is 21" on both sides from the side of the fireplace opening to the edge of the rock chimney. The "shelf" in front is 17" deep.

When I try to read some of the dimensions on the websites for the different stoves, I get a bit confused if my fireplace would take the insert.

I believe I have a dealer in town that carries Pacific Energy, and Jotul. We have Regency, Lopi, and Quadrafire too. I haven't checked all of the dealers yet, but plan to go out this weekend.

Can someone tell me about the fire on a pellet appliance? I saw one in operation the other day, and the fire seemed like a jet of flame....I have also heard that pellet appliances are on the noisy side. In my mind, I think I would like the "ambience" or aesthetic of a fire insert....but also know that I would have more work to do. (On the other hand, all of the work might be good for me....I could stand to lose a few pounds...)

Thanks again!

Steve

 

[begreen]

Welcome Autumnknight. I think you would be happy with a mid-sized Quadrafire 3100i or PE D1 insert. I agree with Warren that you may want to consider a bit larger than the sweep suggested. You can always burn a smaller fire, but when it gets in the teens or lower, you will be glad to have the reserve capacity. And the 3100i is almost 4 times cleaner burning. The same goes for the blower option. Get one, even if you run it on low it will help circulate the warmth and in the shoulder months you don't need to turn it on.

 

[jtp10181]

Can someone tell me about the fire on a pellet appliance? I saw one in operation the other day, and the fire seemed like a jet of flame....I have also heard that pellet appliances are on the noisy side. In my mind, I think I would like the “ambience” or aesthetic of a fire insert....but also know that I would have more work to do. (On the other hand, all of the work might be good for me....I could stand to lose a few pounds...)

Usually due to the force air form the combustion lower the flame on a pellet unit is pretty intense. It is a small flame though, usually on HI around 6" out of the burn put (for Quad anyway). You will hear somewhat of a roaring noise from the fire and also when very hot running some of the unit will start to hum or a rumble a little from all the air moving through. Pellet units are high maintenance, you need to go in and take a bunch of baffles out and clean the excess fly ash out at minimum once a season, and Quad recommends after every ton of fuel which could be a few times during the season.

Not tring to scare you away from pellet, just giving you the facts so you can make an informed decision. Sometimes dealers don't talk about these things because they are afraid of loosing the sale.

 

[Mike Wilson]

In my opinion, pellet units are small blast furnaces. They blast a jet of combustion air into a small pot filled with pellets, causing the pellets to burn very efficiently. The problem is that you lose the ambiance of having a real fire, get a flame that looks like a yellow blow torch, and hear all manner of mechanical noises, from the augers, to the fans, etc. Plus, there's the cost of pellets, which is quite comparable to oil around here, thus begging the question, why. They are, however, probably 5 times cleaner than a wood stove, as far as debris in the house is concerned.

Oh, and if you own a pellet stove, nobody on Hearthnet will accept you as a real woodburner! :lol:
In fact, some pellet burners here operate on a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

-- Mike

 

[jqgs214]

Well. I have the PE D1 insert. You may run into front clearance issues since the "shelf" is only 17". I would suggest finding a flush insert and getting the blower. you may need to extend that shelf or add a non-combustible surface to the floor in front of the hearth otherwise.

 

[MrWinkey]

Hey another guy from Eastern Washington!!

Sweet!

Oh wait....the question....

1st of all pellet stoves are not as bad as some people would have you think.....yes your not as "cool" as the guys who hung out behind the gym at school smokin......but hey...I never was that cool....

I can only speak from my expirence and I dont work for any dealer but here goes.....
Pellet stoves are louder. How much louder...well....it depends on the brand and such. When we looked some of the Quads you could not hardly hear them. Some of the Harmans were really dang quiet. I bought the biggest Harman and yep it's a lil louder but for me that was not a factor. My only complaint is that the auger motor could be quieter but I've adjusted and I dont hear it anymore. Lets say it's not offensive loud and on the model of stove I bought you can turn the blower down or off if you have guests over. So if that is a worry look for a model of stove that can do that. They do not vibrate or rattle. Least the good stoves should not. Keep in mind that in the showroom it will be quieter because of the higher noise level around you.

Cleaning them is easy and takes about the same time I spend on my wood stove so for me that is not an issue. Buy a drywall vac or an ash vac. My stove is stupid simple to clean and it only takes a few minutes. Yearly cleaning take a lil more time but so do the cleanings on wood stoves. It's not hard.


Pellets are same/less price.
If you look in craiglist for wood by the cord that is decent you can easily find pellets for the same price or less. So dont let pellet cost be a consideration as we have several pellet plants located nearby. Pellets worked out better for me as I dont have enough time to drive somewhere to cut wood and then split the wood and such when i can take a day or 2 to purchase and stack all the pellets I need. The biggest selling factor for me on a pellet stove was I could come home to a house that was warm. Oh plus my wife is on the small side and she was not able to haul much wood in but she can scoop pellets from the bin into the stove!

If you have enough land w/ trees you can easily cut your own wood or if you live nearby to National Forrest you can get a wood cutting permit for 15 bucks. (last I checked) That would cost less than pellets but with more sweat equity.

I found that for my 1900 sqf house I'm going through 3-4 tons of pellets per year. Hope to use less this year as I've changed out a few doors and such that were leaking.

It works out on my house to be about 100 bucks per month for pellets but it did lower my letric bill by at least 100 bucks per month and the house is kept warmer by about 20 deg so for me it's a good deal. As always your results may vary.

Currently I'm burning a Harman P-68 and if you want the local good places to check out stoves and or pellet prices send me a PM and I'll give ya all the names/numbers.

Heck your more than welcome to come over and we can grab a (insert drink of choice) and solve the worlds problems!

Good luck!

 

[Autumnknight]

Thanks for the additional info, the more I know the better decision I can make. Is the fire in a woodburing insert "different? It seems I read somewhere that the fire appears to float, or something like that.....

The interior of my chimney is damaged a bit....are they going to have to fix that first, or because they install a liner and stainless steel pipe going to circumvent that?

Thanks again!

Steve

 

[begreen]

Pellet stoves are great, especially where the fuel prices are consistent and reasonable. It's hard to beat them for convenience and clean burning.

Mr. Wink, please post current info on pellet prices to the Hearth.com fuel price reports so all can benefit.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/fuels

 

[MrWinkey]

!ACK! I'm going to leave that to the Pro's. Dont forget to figure that into the cost of the repair/reline into the overall install cost.

I do not think woodburning inserts are diffrent from a wood stove.....

Pellet stoves the flame does look diffrent but IMHO is still nice to look at. Not as cool as some of the secondary burn stoves tho.

Depending on if your mechanicly inclined you can do the stove install yourself.

Oops....I forgot to post prices this year....Thanks BeGreen!

BTW I'm a hired geek by day so please dont think that I'm a pro like some of these guys on here!

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the additional info, the more I know the better decision I can make. Is the fire in a woodburing insert "different? It seems I read somewhere that the fire appears to float, or something like that.....

The interior of my chimney is damaged a bit....are they going to have to fix that first, or because they install a liner and stainless steel pipe going to circumvent that?

Thanks again!

Steve

Steve, can you add Eastern WA to your personal info so that it shows below your name on the left of the post? It really helps people when answering questions to know where you are from. A lot of heating related questions are regionally influenced.

What kind of damage is showing up in the chimney? Is it loose and old mortar? Earthquake cracks? Is it just at the top of the chimney or all the way down? Sometimes, with a liner, one can get away with just re-pointing the upper, exterior part of the chimney. What does the sweep have to say about it?

 

[Gooserider]

Depends on the damage to the chimney, but as stated, while the exterior may need to be repointed, or other external repairs made, those tend to be lower cost than the internal repairs. The internal repairs are mostly bypassed by installing an insulated (to UL-1777 standards) liner, which is not cheap, but probably less than most internal repairs would be.

I will mostly stay away from the pellet / cordwood debate except to note that most people think that cordwood gives a much better "ambiance" to the fire, especially a secondary combustion style unit. Your description of "floating flames" is sort of right - especially during early combustion stages. Wood gives off a variety of gasses as it heats up, and these gasses are what actually does most of the burning, or they go up the chimney as smoke... These gasses must be kept above about 1,000*F to burn, and require oxygen. In a tradtional fire, the oxygen closest to the wood gets consumed, and the smoke gets too far away from the fire and cools before it can burn, so you get smoke. In a secondary combustion stove, they introduce large amounts of pre-heated additional air that combines with the smoke gasses and burns well away from the wood, so you get the floating flame effect, which is quite neat looking.

In essence cordwood vs. pellets boils down to a question of money vs. labor... Pellets and pre-cut & split cordwood are both expensive fuels, but they have low work requirements, especially the pellets. If you "scrounge" or purchase "log-length" and process it yourself, you save a lot of money, but have to put in the "sweat equity" - It's a trade-off that you have to decide where you want to be.

Gooserider

 

[Daniel]

AutumnKnight:

As a newer member of Hearth.com I just went on the insert research & shopping binge that you are currently experiencing. I too live in a 1350 sq. ft. rancher on a slab and had some PECO bills over $500! We have high ceilings and alot of windows, but I'm still convinced that something is wrong with the billing or meter. We turn off lights and keep the thermostat at 68 degrees and this will be my second winter in the house and first winter with the insert. I started my shopping binge with the Quads 3100...then on to the Hearthstone soapstone models. After much shopping I stumbled across the Napoleon 1401/1402 model. Check out the spec. and price on this insert and then read the reviews on Hearth.com or other websites. I have yet to read a bad review and if you are on a budget or just don't want to drop big coin for something that I assume you are purchasing to save yourself some money in the first place this may save you ALOT of money. The Fireplace Warehouse.com in CO was very helpful with support after the sale and had reasonable shipping $99 to PA. You can probaly find his phone # on his website. HOWEVER, if you do not feel comfortable installing the insert on your own I recommend that you buy from a local dealer who does installs as well. When you finally buy a unit post your selection so the bookies can pay off the bets!

By the way as a retired bicycle commuter (commute changed) I have enjoyed chopping wood with a maul and wedges. I don't think carrying bags of pellets would be as invigorating
Good Luck

 

[Daniel]

AK:

Just wondering how the shopping is going? My stove is installed, broken in, and is capable of taking 21" length wood, and producing enough heat to warm the whole house (in October). I still need to perfect getting the stove heated up quickly, but hesitant to fire up to hot at this time of year. I'm glad I didn't go with a smaller stove. The ratings are very wide ranging (eg: heats 1000-2000 sq. ft.) and I would not hesitate to bump up to the Quad 3100 if you are still considering a quad. The flames are neat and I can't wait for the temp to plummet. Hope your finding some good information and deals out there.

dan

 

[Autumnknight]

Thanks for checking in, Dan. I am still shopping. I went to a store that sells Harman products, and saw Harman's pellet insert...very nice....it is on the expensive side, but installation would only be about $400...I have a company coming Friday to give me an installed estimate for the Quadrafire 3100i, and I found a local store that sells the Napoleon line, I just have to find time to go down there and check them out.

I have read conflicting things about how clean the glass stays on some woodburning inserts....How is the glass on yours?

Steve