Need Advice: 2-story family room (MT Vernon AE Insert)

[rubin]

Hello All,

I'm new to pellet stoves. I've searched this board and I've read about 10-pages of threads in this forum and can't seem to find an answer to my questions. So, here it goes . . .

I'm very close to pulling the trigger on a Quadra-Fire MT Vernon AE Insert. It would replace my Mickey-Mouse propane "fireplace" in my 2-story family room. My home is a 2,800 sq. ft. colonial that's 7-1/2 years old. We use our 500-gallon propane tank to heat the house, the water, and to cook with. In the last 12-months I've spent $2,700 on propane and it doesn't look like it's going down any time soon.

I've researched wood pellet stoves enough to think they're really awesome and quite economical. However, I have (2) major concerns that I need help with:

1) Will all/most of the precious hot air simply rise upstairs where the 4-bedrooms are and not keep thing toasty on the first floor? During the day we spend most of our time in the kitchen and family room.

2) How do I "integrate" the new stove with my existing propane furnace? I want them to complement each other, not fight. I'm looking for a sizable reduction in my annual propane bill.

Note: I've heard about running my furnace’s blower to move the warm area throughout the house. Also, I've been told a fan placed upstairs, overlooking the family room, would solve the problem.

Bottom line: i don't want to spend thousands of dollars and only get a pretty fireplace.

Your advice is very much appreciated. Thank You!

 

[lmjr]

You have a pretty good grip on things as you have stated.

Furnace fan running and add a ceiling fan at upper level are big pluses and will go a long way to even out the room temp.

Thermostat placement and set-back times will determine how the furnace and stove interact together and what temps other rooms will be at given times.

You need to look at it as heating different zones.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

....
1) Will all/most of the precious hot air simply rise upstairs where the 4-bedrooms are and not keep thing toasty on the first floor? During the day we spend most of our time in the kitchen and family room.

That is exactly what heated air does it rises until it hits something then it will follow what it has hit all the while cooling as the heat exits through the surface area the heated air flows over, when it gets cool enough it will start sinking to the floor to be reheated.

This creates two problems for you:

a. The real heat is at the wrong level for you to really enjoy.

b. The much larger volume of air in the room takes it a lot longer to heat. A large room with tall ceilings requires a lot of air to be moved, most convection blowers on pellet stoves are not really that good at moving large volumes of air. So it takes time and if the rooms surfaces dissipate the heat faster than the stove can produce it it will not get heated to your liking.


2) How do I "integrate" the new stove with my existing propane furnace? I want them to complement each other, not fight. I'm looking for a sizable reduction in my annual propane bill.

Note: I've heard about running my furnace’s blower to move the warm area throughout the house. Also, I've been told a fan placed upstairs, overlooking the family room, would solve the problem.

The furnace blower may be able to move the air but the stove may not be able to produce enough of it to completely take over the heating chores.

If your goal is reduce your propane use this is one way to integrate the stove into your setup. Set your stove up as manually fired and your furnace to CAC mode, and the furnace stat to where you like it to be for comfort.

You will have to base the firing rate on what the stove can continuously maintain and keep it full of pellets.


Bottom line: i don't want to spend thousands of dollars and only get a pretty fireplace.

Nobody wants to do that.

Selecting a stove (heating system) requires that you know exactly what your house has for a heat loss figure.

I don't recommend stoves because most folks have absolutely no idea what this figure is for their house.

 

[lmjr]

WOW...You're located in Anthracite Coal Country.

Not to mess w/ your thinking, but...are you sure about pellets?

 

[rubin]

WOW...You're located in Anthracite Coal Country.

Not to mess w/ your thinking, but...are you sure about pellets?

To be honest I never even considered a coal stove. Are they as popular as wood? I don't see too many models available. Harman has one insert that I saw. I also see it being pretty dirty, no?

Please educate me, you've got me interested.

Thanks man.

 

[rubin]

....


I don't recommend stoves because most folks have absolutely no idea what this figure is for their house.

Smokey The Bear,

Thanks for all of the great info. This is EXACTLY what I was looking for. You make some excellent points about my situation. So, it seems a wood pellet stove for my type of house is not a great idea, especially with my expectations of significant propane reduction. If this is true, what can I do? I feel like I don't have too many options other than keep spending nearly $3k/year on propane.

Thanks!

 

[lmjr]

WOW...You're located in Anthracite Coal Country.

Not to mess w/ your thinking, but...are you sure about pellets?

To be honest I never even considered a coal stove. Are they as popular as wood? I don't see too many models available. Harman has one insert that I saw. I also see it being pretty dirty, no?

Please educate me, you've got me interested.

Thanks man.

Some threads right here at Hearth.com:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/8828/


Goggle these:

Hitzer Stoves

Keystoker

Leisure Line

Reading

Alaska Stove

Baker Stove

There are Gravity Feed and Auto- Stokers...Stoves, Furnaces and Boilers.

And check this site out...A Whole Another World out there:

http://nepacrossroads.com/

and pound for pound near double the BTU's of Wood Pellets! Comes in bags just like pellets.

As far as inserts go you could look at Hearth Models...they sit on hearth and vent out back and up chimney...
but you can also get a add-on furnace and connect it to your existing duct work too.

Your existing propane chimney needs to be good enough for coal, though.

 

[smwilliamson]

Hello All,

I'm new to pellet stoves. I've searched this board and I've read about 10-pages of threads in this forum and can't seem to find an answer to my questions. So, here it goes . . .

I'm very close to pulling the trigger on a Quadra-Fire MT Vernon AE Insert. It would replace my Mickey-Mouse propane "fireplace" in my 2-story family room. My home is a 2,800 sq. ft. colonial that's 7-1/2 years old. We use our 500-gallon propane tank to heat the house, the water, and to cook with. In the last 12-months I've spent $2,700 on propane and it doesn't look like it's going down any time soon.

I've researched wood pellet stoves enough to think they're really awesome and quite economical. However, I have (2) major concerns that I need help with:

1) Will all/most of the precious hot air simply rise upstairs where the 4-bedrooms are and not keep thing toasty on the first floor? During the day we spend most of our time in the kitchen and family room.

2) How do I "integrate" the new stove with my existing propane furnace? I want them to complement each other, not fight. I'm looking for a sizable reduction in my annual propane bill.

Note: I've heard about running my furnace’s blower to move the warm area throughout the house. Also, I've been told a fan placed upstairs, overlooking the family room, would solve the problem.

Bottom line: i don't want to spend thousands of dollars and only get a pretty fireplace.

Your advice is very much appreciated. Thank You!

There are two types of heat: radiant and thermal. Radiant heat heats solid objects. Bay windows assist in radiant heating. and will heat all objects in line with the stove, i.e. downstairs. Thermal will naturally draft upstairs. Putting a thermostat that will automatically kick on your air exchanger for 10 minutes every 45 minutes will cycle the heat through the entire house. You can also connect the Mt Vernon to this thermostat. If the pellet cannot keep up the gas will come on to assist. Putting an insert in the fireplace will reduce drafts. Pellet are clean and renewable. Coal is not. Trees are abundant in your neck of the woods too. Mt Vernon is one of my all time favorite stoves.

 

[smoke show]

need to do a heat loss calculation.
also lots of research.
the AE can pump out the heat.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

....


I don't recommend stoves because most folks have absolutely no idea what this figure is for their house.

Smokey The Bear,

Thanks for all of the great info. This is EXACTLY what I was looking for. You make some excellent points about my situation. So, it seems a wood pellet stove for my type of house is not a great idea, especially with my expectations of significant propane reduction. If this is true, what can I do? I feel like I don't have too many options other than keep spending nearly $3k/year on propane.

Thanks!

Not quite what I said about reducing your propane usage. The pellet stove will do that since it will heat plenty of air and thus you won't burn as much propane to heat what is remaining. The stove just isn't likely to be able to handle it all (I don't have any heat loss figures to work with here and this is all a very simple numbers game, heat from stove that exceeds the heat loss figure at any temperature will cause the inside temperature to rise, if the the heat from the stove is equal to the heat loss figure at any temperature will maintain that inside temperature). Heat loss figures can be estimated from plugging detailed house construction information into a spreadsheet or calculator and running the numbers for a particular location at particular desired indoor temperatures. They can also be backed into by using the rating information on the manufactures plate on your current heating system (provided it is properly sized and handles the current needs at the desired temperatures) .

Most people are looking to replace their current fuel from so called fossil fuel to something supposedly easier on the environment and to heat their places a bit more at the same time. Your goal appears to be slightly different you just wish to reduce your propane bill which the stove can defiantly help with.

You could look at a pellet furnace to add on to your existing system and there are stoves that have (relativity) large blower capacity for a pellet stove they are kind of between a furnace and a stove and can move air.

 

[Trickyrick]

You may have an accurate enough heating study. You mention $2700 for propane for your heating season. Obviously you have cooking in there too but you can estimate that by looking at summer month usage. You should be able to make a good estimate of the gallons of propane you used for Dec, Jan, and Feb. You want to know the worst case BTU loss. From there you have the efficiency of your existing system and the BTUs per gallon. You have 30 days per month, 24 hours per day. you know how many BTUs per hour to fully heat you home.

Note: All heating appiances are rates as Maximum BTUs of their cumbustible material not BTUs they will put into your home. so a 40,000 BTU pellet stove will really input around 30,000 BTU to your home (75% efficient). From there it is all about distribution.

Further NOTE: Most of us find that the room the Stove is actually in will be a little warmer than the rest of the house. Also as our significant others have experienced the charm and heat of these heating appliances, we are finding the average temperature of the house increasing by 2-4 degrees because. When we have that NICE warm fire we find it easier to keep the house at 70 vs 66. Plus the wife comes to bed in less clothes.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

smwilliamson,

Not to rain on your or anyone else's parade but normally available fuel combustion is anything but clean. Some are more messy than others but they are all dirty in at least one respect.

Hard coal was averaging close to 15% ash when burned the last time I looked, I put more than 60 ton of that stuff through the feed door of a coal fired furnace.

Pound for pound it packs more easily recovered BTUs than wood. I haven't even looked at this option in 20 years.

 

[smwilliamson]

smwilliamson,

Not to rain on your or anyone else's parade but normally available fuel combustion is anything but clean. Some are more messy than others but they are all dirty in at least one respect.

Lisa, hard coal was averaging close to 15% ash when burned the last time I looked, I put more than 60 ton of that stuff through the feed door of a coal fired furnace.

Pound for pound it packs more easily recovered BTUs than wood. I haven't even looked at this option in 20 years.

Sulfur PPM in coal way exceeds wood and the last time I checked, you can't grow coal. How many roof collapses have there been in the logging industry or mt. tops leveled to get to the trees. Surely nothing is without consequence but where would you rather spend 8 hrs a day, in the forest or in a hole that could collapse or blow up at any given time? hmm?

Other than that I guess I like coal...its shiny and black.

 

[peirhead]

Remember that Pellet stoves have very little radiant heat output, most of the heat is transferred to
the room by the fans blowing air over the heat exchanger. It is not at all like the heat from a regular wood stove. The pellet stove will perform in your insert just like the propane stove, given comparable btu output.. I love my pellet stove, but I think you might be disappointed just swapping one for the other. If you do it I would absolutely recommend using the ceiling fan to circulate the heat.

 

[lmjr]

If you do it I would absolutely recommend using the ceiling fan to circulate the heat.

I'll second that! ...even if you do nothing else...install the fan...the return on investment is a "No Brainer"

You wouldn't even need a wall switch if you got one w/ wireless remote.

 

[DBCOOPER]

need to do a heat loss calculation.
also lots of research.
the AE can pump out the heat.

Lets see. Heat loss calcs. R factor of walls x sq ft of walls. Roof r factor plus number of windows and their heat loss plus exposure to sun and don't forget about latitude. How about just checking the size and efficency of the existing heater. Seems like someone already did the calcs.

 

[lmjr]

WOW...You're located in Anthracite Coal Country.

Not to mess w/ your thinking, but...are you sure about pellets?

To be honest I never even considered a coal stove. Are they as popular as wood? I don't see too many models available. Harman has one insert that I saw. I also see it being pretty dirty, no?

Please educate me, you've got me interested.

Thanks man.

Some info for you...

What is Anthracite Coal?

Anthracite Coal is a premium hard clean-burning coal mined out of Pennsylvania. It is one of the most economical fuel and heat sources in the world today. Anthracite coal produces the lowest cost per BTU and more consistent even heat, compared to other fuel sources such as wood pellets, fuel oil, natural gas, electricity, and wood. Anthracite coal burns very warm and clean producing no dirty soot or particle build up. It leaves no residue and produces no smoke.

 

[smoke show]

need to do a heat loss calculation.
also lots of research.
the AE can pump out the heat.

Lets see. Heat loss calcs. R factor of walls x sq ft of walls. Roof r factor plus number of windows and their heat loss plus exposure to sun and don't forget about latitude. How about just checking the size and efficency of the existing heater. Seems like someone already did the calcs.

that is one way of gettng it done.
taking for granted it was done right.
hard to find good help these days.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

need to do a heat loss calculation.
also lots of research.
the AE can pump out the heat.

Lets see. Heat loss calcs. R factor of walls x sq ft of walls. Roof r factor plus number of windows and their heat loss plus exposure to sun and don't forget about latitude. How about just checking the size and efficency of the existing heater. Seems like someone already did the calcs.

that is one way of gettng it done.
taking for granted it was done right.
hard to find good help these days.

That is the backing into the heat loss figure method and you must be certain that the original calculations are even close from two perspectives:

1. That the system could actually handle the job on the coldest days (not always the same as the coldest days you have experienced).

2. That the system on most days is somewhere in the efficient operating range for the system (the system was not sized overly large).

A lot of stoves might be able to handle the entire load on some days, most of the load on other days, and be operating out of their actual design point on the coldest days (this means being continually fired at a rate that will result in high temperature shut downs, which I can assure you the op doesn't really want to deal with).

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

About hard coal, aka anthracite coal.

It isn't exactly clean from several standpoints.

1. High ash production compared with wood pellets.

2. The ash produced has higher concentrations of heavy metals (you do not want to use it in gardening).

3. While it produces both less ash and soot than soft coal it still produces soot (aka fine particulates, the smallest of which isn't particularly nice, indecently even the low sulfur heating oil produces this stuff as does wood pellets and gasp even natural gas).

 

[DBCOOPER]

The system installed either works correctly or it doesn't. If it does then its a good starting point. Here is a heat loss calculator. Try it and see if your central system matches the final answer you come up with.

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm


I would guess that the adverage person wouldn't get it right.


Another thing is that a dollar amount for propane is not a definitive measure of use. Gallons are. Propane is only 90k btu per gallon. I'm guessing but a 2800 square foot house would need about a 108k btus of useable heat near design limits and a whole lot less when it warmer. So Rubin, what size is your primary system propane heater?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

The system installed either works correctly or it doesn't. If it does then its a good starting point. Here is a heat loss calculator. Try it and see if your central system matches the final answer you come up with.

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm


I would guess that the adverage person wouldn't get it right.


Another thing is that a dollar amount for propane is not a definitive measure of use. Gallons are. Propane is only 90k btu per gallon. I'm guessing but a 2800 square foot house would need about a 108k btus of useable heat near design limits and a whole lot less when it warmer. So Rubin, what size is your primary system propane heater?

Ah, I see you found one of my favorite calculators.

Now a bit of further information about what you might find for heating system sizing.

I'll use my system as an example just for S & G (that sh*ts and giggles for those that don't know).

My bacterial decomposition product burning device (aka oil fired hot water system is rated at 75K BTU/hr) the heat loss figure for my house at 0°F external 72°F internal is around 20,000 K BTU/hr.

I chose a stove that hits that heat loss at midpoint in its burn range. My boiler can net three times the required heat loss at that temperature, my stove can net at least half again as much heat as I need at that temperature. To put that half again amount into perspective the outside temperature could average well below zero and the stove should be able to maintain the desired interior design temperature . True I'd be pushing the stove but I still have the hot water system. Likewise the OP would still have the propane burner.

While it would be nice to install the same amount of capacity using a pellet stove it isn't really needed in a number of cases, in the case of doing the back into it method in an older home that had been substantially tightened up you easily get into expensive overkill.

 

[DBCOOPER]

I'm not saying that he should try to match a stove to the size of his central plant. I was answering those that were saying he needed to do a heat loss survey. If he adds 49k btu to his family room he should be able to drink beer in his underwear on the coldest day of the year in that room.


I also find it hard to believe that your heat loss is 20K btu @ o degrees and your boiler is 76K btus. That would mean it is oversized by 200%....

 

[rubin]

I'm not saying that he should try to match a stove to the size of his central plant. I was answering those that were saying he needed to do a heat loss survey. If he adds 49k btu to his family room he should be able to drink beer in his underwear on the coldest day of the year in that room.


I also find it hard to believe that your heat loss is 20K btu @ o degrees and your boiler is 76K btus. That would mean it is oversized by 200%....

Wow! I'm impressed and a little overwhelmed about all of the information you guys have provided. I did not realize how much I need to consider about a wood-pellet stove insert. I need to reread all of the posts and go through the calc. website. I'll also post some pictures of my family room and 2nd floor to give everyone a better idea of my situation.

Thank You!

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I'm not saying that he should try to match a stove to the size of his central plant. I was answering those that were saying he needed to do a heat loss survey. If he adds 49k btu to his family room he should be able to drink beer in his underwear on the coldest day of the year in that room.


I also find it hard to believe that your heat loss is 20K btu @ o degrees and your boiler is 76K btus. That would mean it is oversized by 200%....

You are perhaps forgetting possible domestic hot water which is currently off of my boiler and the fact that most people never like slow heat up cycles so as you can see when home heating systems are actually sized things other than building heat loss are frequently factored in. Things that single purpose devices like pellet stoves don't have to have included in their sizing. I didn't get to specify the heating plant in this house but at least it can be evenly heated and very comfortable when on automatic.

This is why I prefer to do the calculation from measurements and construction detail rather than heating system rating plates or worse yet fuel cost figures although it is done that way and can be fairly accurate if what the heating system is actually being used for is considered.