Need a bigger insert

[Huntindog1]

Sounds like you could use a new gasket, maybe others will comment.

Plus not sure about the roxul insulation it has a rating of 2150 deg F.

If the stove outside gets that hot your stove will already be melted.

 

[Grisu]

Looks like an interior fireplace. Stuffing insulation around the insert will not improve its heating capability. Any heat retained in the fireplace cavity will heat the walls of the fireplace which will release it slowly into the house. Ditto, a protruding, more radiant insert of about similar size won't do much better either. You may feel warmer in the living room but that's about it. The only thing you need to keep the heat in is a block-off plate. As long as that keeps warm air from going up the chimney you are not losing heat from the insert.

The C550 is a larger medium-sized insert. The ones you are mentioning won't allow you to load much more wood and would therefore heat about as well. You would need to look for something really big to get significantly more heat. Kuma Sequoia or Buck 91 come to mind. They require switching the liner to an 8" one.

Looks like you are getting the insert hot enough. How long does a burn last in your hands? What's the temp after e. g. 6 hours? How much do you close the air? How dry is the wood? It sounds like you can load the insert only twice a day during the week. Does it also struggle on the weekends when you can load it more often? Does not hurt to change the gasket every few years.

 

[hamsey]

Insert was installed at the end of January 2014. Going to do a dollar bill test tomorrow am. Reading the manual it says to adjust the latch but have no clue what to adjust. Going to test another piece for MC. Interior chimney. When I removed the surround I saw some roxul behind the insert I think it fell from the block off plate. I have a u cut out instead of a hole due to liner going on a slight angle. Not seeing the roxul on one side of cut out.

Temps on the weekends get a couple of degrees higher than the weeknight. Just have to keep the blower up pretty high. I have backed off on the amount of wood I put in due to size. When I had that nice fire I really stuffed it but I get nervous. Might have over fired it though I noticed rust discoloration I will get pictures

 

[Grisu]

Sometimes the gasket is not tight even when coming fresh from the factory. Dollar-bill test is a good idea.

Are you sure you have a block-off plate and not just some insulation stuffed into the damper area? https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/make-a-damper-sealing-block-off-plate/

Blower on high can be self-defeating when you cool down the insert too much below the point where it can sustain secondary combustion. You are losing too much heat; the question is where?

Where is the discoloration? Inside the firebox?

 

[hamsey]

Ok here is where we are at:

Dollar bill test I did this AM. Top of the door is tight, bottom of the door I can get it to move where it latches and in the center closer I get to the hinge tigher it gets. I put a straight edge on the front and there is a little bump in the middle maybe a 1/32". Not sure what the tolerances are. Going to replace the gasket anyway.

Yes on the block off plate. Installed it myself after insisting on the installer doing it. When they got there they had no interest putting it in so I had to do it. Took maybe an hour.

Running the blower almost on high to get some heat but also to cool the firebox when it gets above 600. Never thought about it interfering with the secondary combustion. Running the blower 1/2 to 3/4 is the only way for us to get any heat to keep the furnace off. Last PM, 34 out (feels like 28) after 4 hours and 2 loads temp was up by 3 degrees from 60 to 63.

Attaching some photos. Wood pile again mostly 2-4 splits. Front of the insert with the discoloration and in the corners there seems to be drip marks. No clue from what or when they came about. Asked my wife and she is not sure either. Door showing glass dirty at the bottom. This has occured from day one. Never put 1 and 1 together until I did the dollar bill test. Figured that everything was fine because it is new.

Interior chimney 22 or 23' 6" S.S. Liner that is not insulated. Wanted an insulated liner but was told I do not need it because of the interior chimney.

Any help would be appreciated.


Edit: Would the door gasket have to be replaced less that a year old? Can someone tell me what the white stuff on the baffle tube could possibly be. Comes right off, thinking ash but not sure.

 

[pigc]

after 4 hours and 2 loads temp was up by 3 degrees from 60 to 63.

Wow, you're giving me second thoughts on installing a Rockland. I have a similar setup to yours minus the vaulted ceiling and currently my open fireplace does better than that!

 

[Huntindog1]

The discoloration is just where some wood maybe had too much moisture left some creosote like substance on the bricks. Sometimes parts of the box dont get air like it should. But the mark its self is not a big issue for your safety just that you could burn a little cleaner.

Maybe a pic of your fire going when you have the air shut back down for a all night burn, would be nice.

The mark on the glass might mean a door gasket leak, have you been cleaning it off? And it keeps showing up just like that as a door leak would show back up as the same pattern I would think.

Something is not right here as if its 34 degrees outside and your house is only 63 degrees from two loads of wood , you definitely have a problem. This shouldnt be happening.

If it was colder like 10 degrees and you let your house get 60 then I would say its hard to heat back up as the thermal mass of your house once it gets chilled is very hard to get turned around so you would have to burn a couple loads at high rate. Back when it was below zero last winter and wind chills like -20 I had to burn like 3 loads from 4pm to 11pm to get my house from 62 to 68. That was in the smaller stove I had at the time of 2.1 cu ft .

 

[hamsey]

Yes, been cleaning it off and it comes right back next fire. Dollar bill test showed that the door is not tight at the bottom where the marks reappear. Cannot believe that the gasket is shot already. Did not burn that much last winter due to lack of wood. Fire almost everyday since middle of October. Some mornings but almost every night. Manual says to adjust the door latch. I need to figure out how. Manual shows a compression spring so that must be it. Shows another part #61 but that is not listed in the parts list.

My stove is only a 2.08 cu/ft.

Not sure if we are talking about the same discoloration. I am talking about the rust color towards the bottom of the front plate where the door seals. Not sure what could have caused those marks that look like drips at the ends of the discoloration. Maybe these are related. Being new to all this I am looking for more experienced help.

Discoloration on the brick in that corner is common. When I shut the air down the left side stops burning but the right side keeps burning. Posted a photo here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/jotul-c550-rockland-questions.124516/ post #10. Sounds like a common issue. Not sure if there is anything I can do about it.

 

[Huntindog1]

Whats your firebox measurements? Sounds like you have a Jotul C450 did they sell you the correct stove?

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/problems-with-new-jotul-c550.76842/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/jotul-insert-firebox-sizes.52834/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/jotul-c550-rockland-or-c450-kennebec.48876/

 

[edge-of-the-woods]

Hit up the Regency website and look under Products > CI2600. There's a link for the manual. Open that file and search for "catch". You'll eventually get to a page where they show you how to remove washers from the door catch assembly to tighten the seal. Yours might be similar.

Before I did that, the dollar bill slid right out. I took off one set of washers, and now it hangs onto that dollar bill like a miser

 

[hamsey]

Firebox size see post # 187 from: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/problems-with-new-jotul-c550.76842/page-8 Firebox tapers from front to back. So to calculate the firebox size one has to use a trapezoid formula. I think they used a rectangle formula. I will take dimensions tonight.

Waiting for a call back from Jotul or the service dept on how to adjust the latch.

Anyone know how to get the discoloration off?

 

[Sons924]

i think your vaulted ceilings are hurting you. Also nobody has mentioned your wood moisture content. seasoned wood will give you double the heat output as unseasoned. When you buy your wood do you split it and check the inside moisture? If you can't get secondaries at 600, then you are boiling the wood, not producing heat with it. Go to the supermarket and get kiln dried wood. See if anything changes. I see a major difference in my insert burning actually seasoned wood. Good luck

 

[pigc]

Sounds like you have a Jotul C450 did they sell you the correct stove?

It's definitely the C 550 Rockland (2.08). I have the brochure at home. Have been investigating it the last 3 weeks. Maybe they measured or rated it differently when it first came back in 07-08?

 

[Grisu]

Do you mean this brochure? (broken link removed to http://jotul.com/us/home/_attachment/11056?_download=true&_ts=13d647fa1fe)
I am pretty sure that is a typo and should be 2.8 cu ft as was stated above earlier. The firebox of the Rockland is quite a bit bigger than the one of the Kennebec not just by 0.03 cu ft. That taper also does not cost you almost 1 cu ft.

 

[cybermob2]

agree with the moisture comments. had some wood that got rained on a few days before trying to burn. what a waste. sizzled and wouldn't get stove over 400 and no secondaries.

my best fires get secondaries firing up around 425deg. once they light, stove temp gets cranking. one piece of wet would ruins the entire fire.

if I have a nice load of seasoned wood, I get a pretty hot fire for about 5 hours max, with good secondary burns for about the first 2-3 hours. starts to coal around 3 hours and secondaries burn out, but heat is good for another couple hours. I get the best secondaries by leaving stove wide open for an hour (new fire), damping down to 3/4 at 1.5 hours, 1/2 at 2 hours, and necking down to fully shut depending on how much heat i'm going for. typically burn weeknights around 5pm, load up around 10, house at around 74, and furnace will just kick in around 6am @ 68deg on the thermostat.

did have one episode of "inferno" conditions... many small small splits, secondary burning something fierce, tons of coals... just one big inferno. will limit those types of events.

happy with my 550 for sure...

 

[pigc]

Do you mean this brochure? (broken link removed to http://jotul.com/us/home/_attachment/11056?_download=true&_ts=13d647fa1fe)
I am pretty sure that is a typo and should be 2.8 cu ft as was stated above earlier. The firebox of the Rockland is quite a bit bigger than the one of the Kennebec not just by 0.03 cu ft. That taper also does not cost you almost 1 cu ft.

That's it. Hmm, I just assumed they would double/triple check something like that before printing out hundreds or thousands of brochures. I have not seen the C 450 in person but comparing the Rockland to other 2.3-2.5 cu. ft inserts the firebox seems smaller to me. I'm definitely not expert on sizing though! May have to contact Jotul to verify for sure.

 

[hamsey]

Here are a couple of photos when the stove top hit 700* last PM. These are typical of our fires.



Well now I know where the 2.08 cu/ft came from. I did the numbers and come out with a Edit: 2.0764 useable cu/ft. firebox.

Talked to the dealer and will be picking up a gasket kit and see if that helps. We talked and he thought it is odd that it needs to replaced so soon. Also that the black keeps reappearing same place at the bottom of the door each time after I clean it. I believe the front of the firebox is cast iron so tolerances are not that good hence the need for a gasket. Edit: There is no way to adjust the door latch. Another typo in the manual.

Going to check another split tonight. Pieces I did check where under 20% Ranged from 16-19%. Something I noticed about the wood I bought is it does not have much weight to it. Dry punky (i think is what it is called) looks rotted. Again new to all this. I did call a tree farm that is putting in a kiln they say they are shooting for 20%mc. At this point I am hesitant about buying more wood.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Wow, you're giving me second thoughts on installing a Rockland.

You should have second thoughts. They cost a ton and don't throw much heat for a "big" stove.

 

[marty319]

Here are a couple of photos when the stove top hit 700* last PM. These are typical of our fires.

View attachment 146570 View attachment 146571

Well now I know where the 2.08 cu/ft came from. I did the numbers and come out with a 2.07 useable cu/ft. firebox.

Talked to the dealer and will be picking up a gasket kit and see if that helps. We talked and he thought it is odd that it needs to replaced so soon. Also that the black keeps reappearing same place at the bottom of the door each time after I clean it. I believe the front of the firebox is cast iron so tolerances are not that good hence the need for a gasket. Edit: There is no way to adjust the door latch. Another typo in the manual.

Going to check another split tonight. Pieces I did check where under 20% Ranged from 16-19%. Something I noticed about the wood I bought is it does not have much weight to it. Dry punky (i think is what it is called) looks rotted. Again new to all this. I did call a tree farm that is putting in a kiln they say they are shooting for 20%mc. At this point I am hesitant about buying more wood.

the glass on my eviro gets dirty all the time at the bottom and I burn well seasoned tamarack ,pine and birch

 

[Sons924]

With your wood under 20% and your temps well up there you might be right with needing an insert that protrudes into the room. The flush Rockland 550 may work well for others, but i think you should start considering a different style.

 

[hamsey]

With your wood under 20% and your temps well up there you might be right with needing an insert that protrudes into the room. The flush Rockland 550 may work well for others, but i think you should start considering a different style.

Any recommendations? Looking at the Hearthstone Clydesdale, Enviro 1700 Boston & PE Alderlea T5. T5 is the same size but projects into the room. Read that it is not going to help much. Hearthstone I am concerned about how long it will take to heat up. We use it daily but mostly cold starts. I read the Boston only blows out the right side of the slot.

I am will to swap it out but I need to make sure it will work. Wife will beat me if it does not.

I might be able to talk her into something like this with the surround (broken link removed). Can this be done with all stoves?

 

[begreen]

Both the C450 and C550 have relatively shallow fireboxes. The main differences are that one is flush and takes 24" wood, the other has adjustable depth and takes 20" wood. If nothing else, there should be about a 15% difference in firebox sizes, regardless of the literature sizing. In practical terms it looks like the actual usable area of the C550 firebox looks to be about 12" x 12" x 24" max. Is that correct? If so it would place it at 2.0 cu ft in size and the C450 around 1.7 cu ft.

 

[begreen]

Any recommendations? Looking at the Hearthstone Clydesdale, Enviro 1700 Boston & PE Alderlea T5. T5 is the same size but projects into the room. Read that it is not going to help much. Hearthstone I am concerned about how long it will take to heat up. We use it daily but mostly cold starts. I read the Boston only blows out the right side of the slot.

I am will to swap it out but I need to make sure it will work. Wife will beat me if it does not.

I might be able to talk her into something like this with the surround (broken link removed). Can this be done with all stoves?

You are looking at good units. All three are good heaters. In general terms the more a inset projects out into the room the better it will heat radiantly without a fan. The Alderlea and Boston are also designed to convect naturally with the blower off.

 

[hamsey]

Begreen, Any opinions on the hearthstone Clydesdale or hearthstone homestead hearthmount?

Yes about the C550 firebox size.

 

[begreen]

I have seen the Clydesdale and am impressed by the quality. Reports here are very good for it as a heater. The Homestead is a very different animal as it is a freestanding stove, set on the hearth. It has very stiff hearth insulation requirement and is a shallow stove. Some folks really love it as a heater, but I am not sure it would be significantly stronger than the C550. Can your fireplace fit a 3 cu ft insert? If yes, I would consider the PE Summit insert.

How are you breaking up the heat that is stratifying near the peak of the cathedral ceiling? Is this effective?