Masonry Renovation/Retrofit Advice & Questions (w/ photos and measurements)

[MattStryfe]

All,

I have scoured the forums for quote some time looking for relevant information for my issue/question but have mostly come up empty. Due to my location, there aren’t very many stores/vendors around, and the one fireplace specialist/sweep I reached out to about these questions has basically ghosted me.

Background:
I have an old masonry fireplace which was inspected last year (the report is attached). I’m not interested in repairing the terracotta but I am VERY interested in replacing/upgrading the setup to a newer catalytic style stove/insert. From what I have gathered, I will need a liner (insulated), a new cap, and possibly some demo of the old damper. Additionally, I understand that regardless of the ‘demo’ decision, i will need to either go with an oval liner, or perhaps a transitional piece near the quick connect/transition.

My intent:
The house is rather large 3k sq/ft and based on what I’ve read on here, the internet, and the manufacturer's claims, there’s no stove that will heat the entire house. Either way… last year, using the old insert (another fireplace in the house), we were able to significantly reduce our HVAC bill, to almost zero. Add to that the ‘winter bombs’ and the increasingly unpredictable weather and suffice to say, I just want something better.

What I REALLY want is an actual stove but based on the dimensions and what I have seen ‘most’ people go with, an insert would be much better suited for this scenario. In fact, it looks like the Regency CI2700/HI500-1 Pro series would slip perfectly right in there. However, as this is a B.I.F.L sort of purchase, I want to make sure I don’t get something that, in a year or 2, I will regret and wish I ‘went larger’. That’s where you guys hopefully come in. =)

Questions:

1. Is the difference between an insert and a stove, performance wise, noticeable? And if so, is there a measurable difference which would be worth the trouble to make the switch given my situation?
2. Is it reasonably possible, given the dimensions of this masonry fireplace, to make a stove work or is the juice not worth the squeeze?
3. Is an offset realistic in this scenario? And if one is used on say a Regency 5200, would there be any additional modifications needed to the liner? I wasn’t able to find the Installation manual for the 5200 (https://regency-fire.com/en/Owners/Service-Maintenance/Manuals) but I was able to find it for the 3500 and it states ‘minimum vertical 36” before any offset. This essentially kills this idea, correct?
4. Code compliance options if DIY? I plan on doing this myself and if done this way, based on what I have read on this forum, there are some code compliance AND insurance considerations which need to be taken into consideration. Assuming these vary based on locality and insurance company but generally speaking… Are these a PITA do get done/scheduled properly?
5. Would you remove the Damper Assembly or cut a hole into the existing metal (assume this is cast iron based on the weight and feel of it)? Possible third option, go with an oval liner?
6. Based on the architectural drawings and photos, my clearances should be fine for a 6”/8” liner, right? Or do I need more info to confirm this?
7. Existing chimney is ~16.5’ tall and located at the direct center of the house. Is this okay for drafting/pull of a stove/insert, or should this be something I look further in to?
8. As far as online liner suppliers go, RockfordChimney and Chimneylinerdepot seem to be the most suggested. However, I’m a bit confused on which type/style liner would be best. Based on what I have researched, smooth walled would be optimal. However, what is the difference between 316, 316L, and 316Ti? To make matters worse, chimneyLinerDepot has a 316ti SS Liner. I would just like to know what order to put them in and what the ‘BEST’ one is. Would something like this work? https://www.northlineexpress.com/6-...wall-liner-kit-with-tee-sm625k-tee-19713.html
9. Based on the ~16’, I would want to purchase a 20’ liner, right?

I hope this isn’t too much and I tried to organize everything as best I can. It’s a big purchase and something I only want to do once so I figured I’d ask the experts first!

Thanks in advance, have a happy Labor Day.
Matt

Imgur Link to photos

 

[EbS-P]

Couple thoughts…

you can get a stove with 29” height jotul F55 comes to mind as the biggest option. Do you want a stove?

If you want the biggest firebox you can get can you fit an insulated 8” liner?

you probably want to checkout the 3 cu ft inserts. There are are not many.
Buck 91 is an 8” catalytic

blue ridge 500 not catalytic https://www.englander-stoves.com/us/en/heaters/wood-inserts/esw0014/

Umm that’s all I recall for 3 cu ft inserts. Anyone else.

I appreciate the organization I just haven’t had enough (or too much) coffee to address point by point.


I removed the entire metal damper assembly frame and damper. I’m never going back to an open fireplace

 

[MattStryfe]

EbS-P,

Thanks for the quick response. That Buck 91 looks like it's right up my alley actually! I believe, based on the attached architectural drawings and photos, an 8" liner would fit (with proper clearances). However, I was hoping to get some feedback from you all on that.

View attachment PXL_20240121_195728958.jpg
View attachment PXL_20240121_195750867.jpg
View attachment PXL_20240121_193452892.jpg

 

[stoveliker]

If that's 16*16 inch ceramic, then surely an insulated 8" liner will fit.

 

[EbS-P]

See if you can verify its inside dimensions. You need 11” to get the insulated 8” down.

Read up on the reviews of the 91, The blue ridge is quite new. Only a couple users have posted about it. It’s an SBI product which has good customer service. The 91 looks better. But probably costs 2x the blue ridge. Blue ridge qualifies for tax credit. (Buck should too but I don’t remember). 8” liner and insulation will cost almost 2x the 6”.

 

[bholler]

All,

I have scoured the forums for quote some time looking for relevant information for my issue/question but have mostly come up empty. Due to my location, there aren’t very many stores/vendors around, and the one fireplace specialist/sweep I reached out to about these questions has basically ghosted me.

Background:
I have an old masonry fireplace which was inspected last year (the report is attached). I’m not interested in repairing the terracotta but I am VERY interested in replacing/upgrading the setup to a newer catalytic style stove/insert. From what I have gathered, I will need a liner (insulated), a new cap, and possibly some demo of the old damper. Additionally, I understand that regardless of the ‘demo’ decision, i will need to either go with an oval liner, or perhaps a transitional piece near the quick connect/transition.

My intent:
The house is rather large 3k sq/ft and based on what I’ve read on here, the internet, and the manufacturer's claims, there’s no stove that will heat the entire house. Either way… last year, using the old insert (another fireplace in the house), we were able to significantly reduce our HVAC bill, to almost zero. Add to that the ‘winter bombs’ and the increasingly unpredictable weather and suffice to say, I just want something better.

What I REALLY want is an actual stove but based on the dimensions and what I have seen ‘most’ people go with, an insert would be much better suited for this scenario. In fact, it looks like the Regency CI2700/HI500-1 Pro series would slip perfectly right in there. However, as this is a B.I.F.L sort of purchase, I want to make sure I don’t get something that, in a year or 2, I will regret and wish I ‘went larger’. That’s where you guys hopefully come in. =)

Questions:

1. Is the difference between an insert and a stove, performance wise, noticeable? And if so, is there a measurable difference which would be worth the trouble to make the switch given my situation?
2. Is it reasonably possible, given the dimensions of this masonry fireplace, to make a stove work or is the juice not worth the squeeze?
3. Is an offset realistic in this scenario? And if one is used on say a Regency 5200, would there be any additional modifications needed to the liner? I wasn’t able to find the Installation manual for the 5200 (https://regency-fire.com/en/Owners/Service-Maintenance/Manuals) but I was able to find it for the 3500 and it states ‘minimum vertical 36” before any offset. This essentially kills this idea, correct?
4. Code compliance options if DIY? I plan on doing this myself and if done this way, based on what I have read on this forum, there are some code compliance AND insurance considerations which need to be taken into consideration. Assuming these vary based on locality and insurance company but generally speaking… Are these a PITA do get done/scheduled properly?
5. Would you remove the Damper Assembly or cut a hole into the existing metal (assume this is cast iron based on the weight and feel of it)? Possible third option, go with an oval liner?
6. Based on the architectural drawings and photos, my clearances should be fine for a 6”/8” liner, right? Or do I need more info to confirm this?
7. Existing chimney is ~16.5’ tall and located at the direct center of the house. Is this okay for drafting/pull of a stove/insert, or should this be something I look further in to?
8. As far as online liner suppliers go, RockfordChimney and Chimneylinerdepot seem to be the most suggested. However, I’m a bit confused on which type/style liner would be best. Based on what I have researched, smooth walled would be optimal. However, what is the difference between 316, 316L, and 316Ti? To make matters worse, chimneyLinerDepot has a 316ti SS Liner. I would just like to know what order to put them in and what the ‘BEST’ one is. Would something like this work? https://www.northlineexpress.com/6-...wall-liner-kit-with-tee-sm625k-tee-19713.html
9. Based on the ~16’, I would want to purchase a 20’ liner, right?

I hope this isn’t too much and I tried to organize everything as best I can. It’s a big purchase and something I only want to do once so I figured I’d ask the experts first!

Thanks in advance, have a happy Labor Day.
Matt

Imgur Link to photos

The only way you will fit a large stove would be to.set it infront of the fireplace and pipe it into the chimney up above the fireplace opening. This is certainly doable but will add cost and complexity to the install as well as taking up extra space in the room. But it will reduce reliance on a blower

 

[MattStryfe]

The only way you will fit a large stove would be to.set it infront of the fireplace and pipe it into the chimney up above the fireplace opening. This is certainly doable but will add cost and complexity to the install as well as taking up extra space in the room. But it will reduce reliance on a blower

I think what you're describing is this, and if so, i agree and obviously you're right. That's mostly what I was trying to confirm if I wanted to go the stove route.

 

[MattStryfe]

See if you can verify its inside dimensions. You need 11” to get the insulated 8” down.

Read up on the reviews of the 91, The blue ridge is quite new. Only a couple users have posted about it. It’s an SBI product which has good customer service. The 91 looks better. But probably costs 2x the blue ridge. Blue ridge qualifies for tax credit. (Buck should too but I don’t remember). 8” liner and insulation will cost almost 2x the 6”.

I'll have to go up on the roof to get a confident measurement of the width because the dang damper is in the way - but I will try today.

I did some measurement comparisons on against the Buck 91 Spec Sheet and it seems like a perfect fit. The ONE issue will be the clearance on the hearth. Currently, it's poured concrete and i believe it goes down through the subfloor. I think that is what the 12" deep conc chimney footing is in this drawing. Does that seem right?
View attachment 1725374403052.jpeg


So liner wise...
Assuming it will take an 8" insulated liner (+~3 inches for insulation?), the spec sheet mentions the following
"Model 91 is tested with only double wall pipe." AND a starter pipe? This is the first i have heard this term before. Is this suggesting that I use something like this to get passed the damper area and the anchor/blockoff plate?

And finally, I'm still a little confused on the liner types (rating wise), which is best, and where to buy. So for question #8 of the original post, any would any of those sites work?

View attachment PXL_20240121_195750867.jpg

 

[MattStryfe]

See if you can verify its inside dimensions. You need 11” to get the insulated 8” down.

Read up on the reviews of the 91, The blue ridge is quite new. Only a couple users have posted about it. It’s an SBI product which has good customer service. The 91 looks better. But probably costs 2x the blue ridge. Blue ridge qualifies for tax credit. (Buck should too but I don’t remember). 8” liner and insulation will cost almost 2x the 6”.

I looked into the Englander BLUE RIDGE 500-I, assuming that is the company/model you meant. That one is definitely cheaper but probably because is non-cat? What's impressive is that it still seems to qualify for the credit, like you mentioned. Which means even without a cat, it's super efficient, right? Impressive. However, the warranty, FWIW, is only 5 years. Which seems significantly lower than the 'higher tier' stoves.

I think, for now, I have my sights set on the Buck 91, my only concerns or hesitation with them is
1. there is no vendor near me, which is fine i think because i seem to be able to order online anyway.
2. the warranty is only 5yr+5yr, which is middle of the road from my research.

 

[EbS-P]

I looked into the Englander BLUE RIDGE 500-I, assuming that is the company/model you meant. That one is definitely cheaper but probably because is non-cat? What's impressive is that it still seems to qualify for the credit, like you mentioned. Which means even without a cat, it's super efficient, right? Impressive. However, the warranty, FWIW, is only 5 years. Which seems significantly lower than the 'higher tier' stoves.

I think, for now, I have my sights set on the Buck 91, my only concerns or hesitation with them is
1. there is no vendor near me, which is fine i think because i seem to be able to order online anyway.
2. the warranty is only 5yr+5yr, which is middle of the road from my research.
View attachment 329491

I wouldn’t worry too much about warranty 5 vs 10 and the fact that you don’t have a dealer may be an issue with buck and a future claim.
Englander/SBI sells directly to customers so they work with you in warranty.

It’s difficult to get heavy wall liner for a self install. Most places are selling mid or light weight. You can easily wrap installation around any liner. You don’t want smooth wall or triple wall. It’s junk.

Catalytic converters are a consumable. They may give a ten year warranty but you can consume them in about 10k hours. I don’t know how they handle it but many just give a free cat the first time and then you have to pay for replacement.

A 4+ cu ft stove is HUGE. Are you located in northern VA? Not saying too big but being realistic. Burning 2-3 cords a year means you need space to store 6-9 4x4x8 cords of wood.

My point is the size difference wouldn’t be a deciding factor. The advantages and disadvantages of a cat and the price difference and looks would be what I would be focusing on. Last point you are not buying this for life. 20 years maybe 30. New liner every 10-20.

 

[MattStryfe]

Last point you are not buying this for life. 20 years maybe 30. New liner every 10-20

That would be most of my life, especially because I feel like I will be splitting this for most of it. =)

TBH, I never thought of it like this - thanks. Though I would be pretty annoyed if I only got 10 years out of one of these liners. What specifically should I be looking for to determine if one of the liners on these websites is 'mid walled' or better than some of the others? I have this quotes written down in my notes from BHoller,

• All metal liners are stainless. There are basically 4 types of ss liners. Regular corrugated light wall which is .005" or .006" thick.
• 2 ply smooth wall liner which is the same thickness but has an inner overlapping edge that is unsupported on the bottom forming a smooth interior.
• Mid weight and heavy wall which are .010" or .015" respectively. They are an interlocking coil which is much more durable and smooth wall.
• Rigid pipe which is just sections of pile joined together to form a full liner.
• 2 ply is the least durable. Rigid and heavy flex are about the same for most durable

The problem is, I come across stuff like 8" Forever Flex Hybrid Smooth Wall 316L Stainless Chimney Liner Tee Kit. Which is .010 but advertised as 'Smooth Wall'.

 

[bholler]

That would be most of my life, especially because I feel like I will be splitting this for most of it. =)
View attachment 329502

TBH, I never thought of it like this - thanks. Though I would be pretty annoyed if I only got 10 years out of one of these liners. What specifically should I be looking for to determine if one of the liners on these websites is 'mid walled' or better than some of the others? I have this quotes written down in my notes from BHoller,


The problem is, I come across stuff like 8" Forever Flex Hybrid Smooth Wall 316L Stainless Chimney Liner Tee Kit. Which is .010 but advertised as 'Smooth Wall'.

Forever flex hybrid is mid weight and good pipe. If you can find it they make it in 304 as well which is cheaper and works just as well for wood

 

[MattStryfe]

Awesome! Last question, I swear.

Assuming I go with the Buck and the 8" Forever Liner, would the best plan of attack for this damper be hammer and chisel? Then add a block plate during the install w/ some insulation (Roxul/rock-wool) as suggested here?

View attachment PXL_20240121_193420255.jpg
View attachment PXL_20240121_194553540.jpg
View attachment PXL_20240121_193440301.jpg

 

[stoveliker]

I think an angle grinder; leave what's in the brick be.

 

[MattStryfe]

I think an angle grinder; leave what's in the brick be.

That seems like a great idea.
So basically cut the metal so I don't ruin the integrity of the brick. Gotcha.