Is Liner Mandatory for Wood Stove in Fireplace?

[greasemnky]

Looking at a Leyden wood stove with a blower, mainly for astetics, for our oversided fireplace. Fire box is 50in tall, 48 wide. The chimney was built in 2000, and as best as I can get a tape up the flue, is 24x24. We have 32 feet from the flue, to the top of the chimney. Its not in any walls etc.





My question is, what function does a 6in liner serve? Its hard to get a clear answer, other than creasote built up, and chimney leaks. Neither of which concern me as I have a much larger than typical chimney. I also have the equipment to sweep the chimney each fall previous owner of the house left it all behind.

I have enough room to get the double wall pipe well into the chimney. If the chimney was sufficent for the big fires we've burned previously, what does the liner do besides provide saftey of no Co2 etc leaks? Trying to understand the "science" behind it. Someone told me it increases the draft, but a straw verus a pipe, seems counter intuitive to my uneducated brain.

I happen to own a property that was once logged for wood furniture, so have a about 200 cords of 10+ year old hemlock, oak etc that I'll be burning. I doubt we'll use it more than twice a week.

Thank you in advance for the education

 

[stoveliker]

The cross section of the flue should match what the stove needs. A fireplace has a large opening, so a lot of air will flow, hence a large chimney is needed to exhaust that gas.

A stove has a much lower air flow, and thus needs a much smaller flue cross section.

If you empty the stove exhaust flow in a 2'x2' flue, the total speed of the gases will slow down tremendously (think about blowing in a straw, how fast that goes, and then connecting that straw to a 4" pvc pipe; you're still blowing the same amount of gas but in the pvc pipe the flow speed is much lower because the total flux (mass flow through the cross sectional area) has to be the same). That will allow the gases to cool a lot (in addition to the cooling due to an expansion when emptying in a big volume).
Cooled exhaust gases result in creosote.

 

[bholler]

Looking at a Leyden wood stove with a blower, mainly for astetics, for our oversided fireplace. Fire box is 50in tall, 48 wide. The chimney was built in 2000, and as best as I can get a tape up the flue, is 24x24. We have 32 feet from the flue, to the top of the chimney. Its not in any walls etc.

View attachment 331346

View attachment 331347

My question is, what function does a 6in liner serve? Its hard to get a clear answer, other than creasote built up, and chimney leaks. Neither of which concern me as I have a much larger than typical chimney. I also have the equipment to sweep the chimney each fall previous owner of the house left it all behind.

I have enough room to get the double wall pipe well into the chimney. If the chimney was sufficent for the big fires we've burned previously, what does the liner do besides provide saftey of no Co2 etc leaks? Trying to understand the "science" behind it. Someone told me it increases the draft, but a straw verus a pipe, seems counter intuitive to my uneducated brain.

I happen to own a property that was once logged for wood furniture, so have a about 200 cords of 10+ year old hemlock, oak etc that I'll be burning. I doubt we'll use it more than twice a week.

Thank you in advance for the education

What stoveliker said is absolutely all true but I will add that there most likely won't be enough heat put into the chimney by the stove to generate adequate draft to make the stove work.

 

[stoveliker]

BTW, nice place!
If you put a wood stove there, do you have a ceiling fan? The heat will pool at the top otherwise.

Also with a flue of 32 feet you will need one or even two flue dampers because draft is likely going to be too high.

 

[greasemnky]

Thank you!! MUCH better explanation then the sales guy at our 1 fireplace store in town. Appreciate the plumbing reference!

My office happens to be on that cat walk above the fireplace, so I'm good with heat going up, its where I am 90% of the time!! Plus the GFA cold air returns are actually hidden behind the trim at the bottom of the ceiling line, so if I leave the blower to the furnace on, it will suck the hot air in, and blow it out the registers in the floor. The house has 2 "wings" to it, that we rarely use, so to keep that main room 68, the side rooms are 72+. I'd just as soon keep them 60-65, and heat the main room up to 70-72. Plus I need to get rid of some of this wood we have piled around the property, so win win.

Next dumb question.......too much draft is bad? Once I drop a stainless liner down, do I still need to sweep it once a season like the fireplace, or is the service interval longer? Last one....I think.....single wall ok since its in a chimney?

 

[begreen]

Personally, I would walk away from the Leyden. It's a pretty stove, but was cranky to run and Lopi only carried it for a short time. If the combustion pack needs replacement, it will be costly.

 

[stoveliker]

Thank you!! MUCH better explanation then the sales guy at our 1 fireplace store in town. Appreciate the plumbing reference!

My office happens to be on that cat walk above the fireplace, so I'm good with heat going up, its where I am 90% of the time!! Plus the GFA cold air returns are actually hidden behind the trim at the bottom of the ceiling line, so if I leave the blower to the furnace on, it will suck the hot air in, and blow it out the registers in the floor. The house has 2 "wings" to it, that we rarely use, so to keep that main room 68, the side rooms are 72+. I'd just as soon keep them 60-65, and heat the main room up to 70-72. Plus I need to get rid of some of this wood we have piled around the property, so win win.

Next dumb question.......too much draft is bad? Once I drop a stainless liner down, do I still need to sweep it once a season like the fireplace, or is the service interval longer? Last one....I think.....single wall ok since its in a chimney?

Yes, too much draft is bad. It'll lead to overfiring the stove, loss of control of the fire in the stove.
And yes, generally (especially for folks starting to burn in a new-to-them stove), sweep at least once a season. You can do less if a few years of data show you don't need as much - and if your insurance is okay with that (...).

 

[bholler]

Thank you!! MUCH better explanation then the sales guy at our 1 fireplace store in town. Appreciate the plumbing reference!

My office happens to be on that cat walk above the fireplace, so I'm good with heat going up, its where I am 90% of the time!! Plus the GFA cold air returns are actually hidden behind the trim at the bottom of the ceiling line, so if I leave the blower to the furnace on, it will suck the hot air in, and blow it out the registers in the floor. The house has 2 "wings" to it, that we rarely use, so to keep that main room 68, the side rooms are 72+. I'd just as soon keep them 60-65, and heat the main room up to 70-72. Plus I need to get rid of some of this wood we have piled around the property, so win win.

Next dumb question.......too much draft is bad? Once I drop a stainless liner down, do I still need to sweep it once a season like the fireplace, or is the service interval longer? Last one....I think.....single wall ok since its in a chimney?

Yes to much draft can be bad. But it is much easier to deal with than too little draft. If you just ran into that chimney without a liner you would absolutely have too little draft.

Yes you will probably still need to clean once a year.

And yes just a single wall insulated liner will be fine.

 

[greasemnky]

Looking for something with a glass door, with a blower. The room is 30x30 with 24 foot ceilings (I know, real 1st world problems here). I can get the Leyden for 1K, with the blower. If thats not a great choice, what would people suggest?

Thanks for all the help You guys are much nicer/informative than the auto boards

 

[begreen]

What are the fireplace dimensions? There are many options, but it's important to know the budget too.

 

[begreen]

Wondering if the Drolet Escape 1800 would fit.

Wood Stove | Escape 1800 Black Door + Cast Iron Legs

Escape 1800 wood stove - EPA certified at 1.54 g/h - 75,000 BTU/h - Heats up to 2,100 ft² - 20 '' logs - Model on cast iron legs - Made in Canada Us.

www.drolet.ca

 

[stoveliker]

What are the fireplace dimensions? There are many options, but it's important to know the budget too.

50" x48" HxW
Big.

 

[begreen]

Plenty of room to go larger then if desired. It's mainly up to the budget.

 

[greasemnky]

Wondering if the Drolet Escape 1800 would fit.

Wood Stove | Escape 1800 Black Door + Cast Iron Legs

Escape 1800 wood stove - EPA certified at 1.54 g/h - 75,000 BTU/h - Heats up to 2,100 ft² - 20 '' logs - Model on cast iron legs - Made in Canada Us.

www.drolet.ca

I would say under 5K? Ideally 2-3K. I had a couple of local friends caution me against a steel stove, so I was looking mainly at cast iron. I then was educated that not all cast iron is real cast iron. Wood stoves seem like a bit of a minefield. I grew up in a house that only had a wood stove, I barely remember maintaining it, and it just ran year after year.

The idea of a larger log would be nice. I have a LOT of stacked seasoned wood from the previous owner already (there in 10ft logs right now, but are 10+ years old) We had a good storm move thru this evening, and God has gifted me 3 beech tree's laying on the ground as well LOL. I'm also building a shop, and have 15+ tree's on the ground from this past weekend. Being able to cut them larger will save me time on the prep end, and I would assume, give a longer burn.

 

[stoveliker]

I would far prefer a steel stove over a cast iron one.

 

[greasemnky]

I would far prefer a steel stove over a cast iron one.

May I ask why? I'm sure there's good and bad in both. I liked the idea of the cast iron holding heat longer, esspecially overnight. That said, some of the steel stoves do look very good, and I imagine the tech has come a long way since the last I saw them.

 

[stoveliker]

The firebox integrity is not dependent on cementing seams. It's welded.
There are steel stoves with cast iron cladding for the thermal properties you like.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

I’ll just mention here that with so much wood available, as long as you have the discipline and stamina to cut and stack it, you may well just find yourself using a woodstove more than you currently imagine. My husband and I first bought an insert to help heat a cool finished basement where he had an office. We had no intention of heating the whole home with it, but it worked so well, and we loved the heat and savings so much, that we quickly moved in that direction. Having moved twice since, we’ve worked hard to have wood heat in our two subsequent homes.

I think you’ll find that firebox size will contribute more to longer burns and subsequently longer heat time than the material of the stove itself. My mother burns a beautiful old cast iron stove with a small firebox, and it does hold coals overnight, but it really doesn’t heat by morning. The larger stove inserts our family had put out more meaningful heat after more hours because we just had the ability to load more wood.

Stoves are rated by how much square footage they heat, but the more accurate measurement would be cubic footage. Because of your twenty-four foot ceiling height, your “square footage” is triple what the stove calculation would use. I’m not expressing that well, but I hope it makes sense.

 

[Woody Stover]

I would say under 5K? Ideally 2-3K. I had a couple of local friends caution me against a steel stove, so I was looking mainly at cast iron. I then was educated that not all cast iron is real cast iron. Wood stoves seem like a bit of a minefield. I grew up in a house that only had a wood stove, I barely remember maintaining it, and it just ran year after year.

The idea of a larger log would be nice. I have a LOT of stacked seasoned wood from the previous owner already (there in 10ft logs right now, but are 10+ years old) We had a good storm move thru this evening, and God has gifted me 3 beech tree's laying on the ground as well LOL. I'm also building a shop, and have 15+ tree's on the ground from this past weekend. Being able to cut them larger will save me time on the prep end, and I would assume, give a longer burn.

I wouldn't hesitate to lay out a little more up front, to get a stove that will supply your heating needs, and look good doing it. When you spread the cost over the life of the stove, maybe 20 years, that little extra up front will pay big dividends over the long haul.
Where do you sit in relation to the hearth? You might want a radiant stove that will warm object, people included, within 25' or so. Or if you want to heat air in order to move heat to other areas, a more convective design might be in order.
I have a couple of seamed cat stoves now, one cast iron and one soapstone. But I'm thinking of trying out a plate-steel stove with a welded box..a Jotul F35. No cat to bother with, either. Never have to rebuild those when the seams start leaking, as they inevitably will.
Do you have any wood that's split and dried out? 10 yr. logs might be dry, but maybe not. Get a moisture meter and check some. Get it to room temp, split and check immediately in the center of the freshly-exposed face.

 

[Woody Stover]

Thanks for all the help You guys are much nicer/informative than the auto boards

You might be changing your screen name to stovemnky, when you find out how much nicer we really are compared to other places on the 'net.. 😉

 

[greasemnky]

I wouldn't hesitate to lay out a little more up front, to get a stove that will supply your heating needs, and look good doing it. When you spread the cost over the life of the stove, maybe 20 years, that little extra up front will pay big dividends over the long haul.
Where do you sit in relation to the hearth? You might want a radiant stove that will warm object, people included, within 25' or so. Or if you want to heat air in order to move heat to other areas, a more convective design might be in order.
I have a couple of seamed cat stoves now, one cast iron and one soapstone. But I'm thinking of trying out a plate-steel stove with a welded box..a Jotul F35. No cat to bother with, either. Never have to rebuild those when the seams start leaking, as they inevitably will.
Do you have any wood that's split and dried out? 10 yr. logs might be dry, but maybe not. Get a moisture meter and check some. Get it to room temp, split and check immediately in the center of the freshly-exposed face.

Yes I've split quite a bit of it, mainly for camp fires and to heat my current shop. I made a wood stove out 3/16 stock, with a big heat exchanger on top. Its scary looking, but heats our repair shop in the winter nicely! There's a hotel chain called Great Wolf Lodge in our area, the previous owner made nearly all the wood furniture for that company.

 

[Woody Stover]

I made a wood stove out 3/16 stock, with a big heat exchanger on top. Its scary looking, but heats our repair shop in the winter nicely! There's a hotel chain called Great Wolf Lodge in our area, the previous owner made nearly all the wood furniture for that company.

Interesting back-story on your place! 😎
So does this stove of yours have a catalytic combustor, or is it a secondary-air stove? If it's a "smoke dragon," it's time to get back to work!😏 You can definitely handle it, with your mechanical skills. Don't forget, we like plenty of pics when someone tackles a project like this. 😁

 

[EbS-P]

On smaller scale (my opening is 29Hx42 W)

We stuck the stove completely in the fireplace. It needs a blower to move heat out. What ever you choose needs a blower. Might as well plan on insulating the liner. 35’ add 600$ to the liner cost of. Just guessing $1500-2500. Pre insulated is an option.

Stoves…. Drolet are good but lacking in aesthetics. Jotul F55 could rear or top vent. (Brings up the question where will the damper (s) be installed so you can easily reach them). Would stay in budget.

A Woodstock stove could look nice. Probably pushing the budget a bit.

A pacific energy T5 or big T6 could possibly work maybe even with op to a 90 (or two 45s) if you want it out in front.

You have lots of options with 50” height.

 

[Wisco Shepherd]

The idea of a larger log would be nice. I have a LOT of stacked seasoned wood from the previous owner already (there in 10ft logs right now, but are 10+ years old) We had a good storm move thru this evening, and God has gifted me 3 beech tree's laying on the ground as well LOL. I'm also building a shop, and have 15+ tree's on the ground from this past weekend. Being able to cut them larger will save me time on the prep end, and I would assume, give a longer burn.

10 years will likely do it for logs but you may be surprised at the moisture depending on how they are stored. Learning how to use a moisture meter will be your friend here.

 

[begreen]

I had a couple of local friends caution me against a steel stove, so I was looking mainly at cast iron.

That's simply not correct. Having owned and worked on both I can say that a good steel stove is definitely as durable as cast and in the long run, lower maintenance. A steel stove is welded box. All of the seams are welded. This is not true for a cast stove. Most need the sealing cement needs to be replaced after 10-15 yrs. That's an expensive rebuild. Our T6 is going on its 15th season now. It has had nothing but gasket replacements. A cast stove would be looking at a rebuild now.

Being able to cut them larger will save me time on the prep end, and I would assume, give a longer burn.

If by larger one means longer, that is not always a benefit. Most long log loaders are wider stoves with shallower fireboxes which usually means E/W loading. This is means less useable capacity because one must load the stove so that the logs can't roll up against the glass as the fire burns down. A N/S loading stove will have a deeper firebox that allows the firebox to be fully packed.