Is it worth fixing our stove/chiimney- LONG post, need BIG help

[Exmasonite]

Hey everybody-

So, looking for advice here. This is going to be a long one so feel free to stop reading now.

Situation:
House: Purchased house in September. Log home, ~2500 sq ft. Have since learned that every corner that previous owner could cut, has been cut.

Heating: Fuel oil burner and radiators (2 zones- 1st and 2nd floor), wood stove on main floor (Merlin 3, 1.8 cu foot non-cat stove), Dellpoint Europa 75 pellet stove in basement, ventless LP fireplace in living room

Points to know/consider:

a) Wood stove is in one end of first floor, has 6" pipe that goes through 8" thimble into masonry chimney, 25', unlined. Goes up ~ 2-3 feet from stove, 90 degree turn and out horizontally through wall into chimney.

b) Wood stove probably handles 60-70% of heating with fans to move air around, etc. Only problem is opposite end of main floor (living room, of course) gets cold so we use the LP fireplace to keep that room warm.

c) at night, we use a space heater (sealed oil space heater) to heat master bedroom upstairs

d) novice burner... bought some "seasoned" wood in the fall (hehe) so have been dealing with somewhat green wood. Have been removing the 6" flue pipe to clean every 2 weeks. But, overall stove has been working well, cranking out some heat (despite fact that it's a 20 yr old new zealand stove- still on EPA certified list, works well). Have probably burned through about 2.5 cords thus far this winter in Northwest CT. Find that i'm spending a lot of time with stove and house gets cold at times (after long shifts, overnights, etc). Probably limits of 1.8 cubic ft firebox, bad wood, etc.

e) Pellet stove in basement is a bust... have cut vents in basement door, put 2 vents in floor but aside from having 70 degree basement, used numerous fans but can't get the heat out of the basement. pellet stove is parked in little corner/alcove of basement opposite basement stairway door.

So, hopefully that covers the background. Here is the most recent problem/issue:

We have occasionally noticed smokey smell in house, attributed to stove door being open. But, have discovered some leakage at thimble and one of the stove pipe junctions lately. Was exaggerated the other night when it was very windy (house was pretty smokey, scary moment). Will post a pic below to illustrate. Talked to a stove/chimney guy today and he thinks that lining chimney is 1st and foremost to do given smoke leaking back into house.

So, here are my problems that i can identify (going to restrict to the woodburning stove as goal is for it to be primary heat source):

1) Unlined chimney

2) BAD thimble/pipe interface.

3) Bad wood +/- small stove +/- non-central location of stove


In closing, trying to figure out what to do here. Figured these are the options:

1) Quick fix: Fix the pipe/thimble issue and continue burning through unlined chimney

2) Better fix: Fix pip/thimble and get chimney lined

3) Best fix: Fix pipe/thimble, line chimney, and upgrade stove +/- OAK kit

4) Alternative fix: Move pellet stove from basement to mainfloor and vent into unlined chimney (this is the cheapest, quickest fix and thus don't want to line chimney)


At this point, we are at a "crossroads" in life where we'll either be living here for only 3-4 yrs longer or possibly the next 20+. Won't know that for 2-3 more years.

So, we are looking at all our options but unfortunately finances are a big part of it. I'm looking at getting serious about having 8-10 cords of wood delivered to process to get a 2-3 yr head start, have started dabbling in chainsaws, etc. But... finances are definitely finite.

I don't have a quote on getting chimney lined but i'm bracing for $1-2K. One the one hand, i'm looking forward to woodburning, processing wood and the effort/joy of it. (Having had just a taste of it this winter, it is awesome). On the other hand, just wondering if i'm better off just sucking it up and paying the propane man. The time saved could be better used picking up extra shifts at work... coupled with chance of possible return to grad school this summer makes it an appealing choice.

After all that rambling, i guess it comes down to a few questions:

1) If i can seal/fix thimble, how bad is burning into unlined chimney (given my issues with smoke, obviously i have a draft issue... then again, did "ok" for the last 2 months)

2) (and i will likely post this in pellet forum but..) Can i vent pellet stove into unlined chimney?

Cost wise, i see $1-2K for liner, $700-800 wood, another couple hundred to rent splitter (chainsaw costs aside.... i need a good saw with my property so that's not an issue). For only a couple of years, is it worth the cost? I just am wondering what's best for my family/finances... all things the same, i'd rather go the woodburning route.

 

[Exmasonite]

here are pics

 

[gilmil]

What's on the other side of that thimble?

 

[Exmasonite]

goes through the wall into masonry chimney, no liner... about 25' up to top and about 6-7' down to grade. Horizontal run of pipe terminates just about where thimble meets the chimney

 

[Renovation]

Hey everybody-

So, looking for advice here. This is going to be a long one so feel free to stop reading now.

Welcome Exmasonite!

Situation:
House: Purchased house in September. Log home, ~2500 sq ft. Have since learned that every corner that previous owner could cut, has been cut.

Welcome to my world!

I have no specific advice yet, but a general one. Since your situation is uncertain and money is tight, I encourage you to create options for yourself--relatively simple and inexpensive solutions that meet your present needs, but will not be a big waste if you later decide to do more. Maybe you're already thinking along those lines.

I may have more later, but I hope this helps for now. Welcome, and good luck.

 

[Exmasonite]

George-

Thanks for the kind words and advice.

Here's my "quickest" fix idea but not sure how comfortable i am with it: Finding something to stuff around the 6" pipe to fill the 2" gap in the thimble and prevent smoke leakage. I don't want anything permanent like adhesive/caulk since i need to be able to remove the pipe to clean it. I'm wondering if fiberglass insulation will work but worried about how flammable it might be (well, not the insulation but the coatings on it).

Any opinions on fireproof ability of fiberglass insulation?

 

[gilmil]

I can't speak to stuffing insulation around there, but if you do you should use rockwool insulation. How far up into Northwest CT are you? I know rock wool can be tricky to get, but I can get it in Manchester.

 

[ecocavalier02]

r e micheal in hartford will have rock wool . a heating and a/c supply house company if not them then sasco in southington ct thats where we get all ares for are duct chases.

 

[webbie]

Keep in mind that air can be as good - or better - of a insulator than insulation!

I don't think a piecemeal situation is going to help here, because from afar we cannot see enough to make accurate determinations.
That means getting a pro to look at it....but some general comments.....

If the masonry chimney is not lined, you are really in an unsafe situation......if it had a good tile liner of the proper size you might be OK.

The situation through the wall is totally messed up as you know.
The first rule here is - stove pipe of any kind is not really allowed to go through any wall.
you need to have either a UL approved thimble installed, or a masonry "wall patch" as in NFPA - which means a LOT of masonry around that sucker.

From afar it seems like some combination of chimney liner (single wall) and then double wall pipe to come through the wall (with air space, thimble or approved masonry patch around it) is the right solution.

If someone can do that right for 2 grand, I'd be amazed....especially since the liner in an unlined chimney must be insulated itself.

The stove itself doesn't look pristine....I really wonder what 6 cords a year is going to do to that.....if it will hold up, and what parts might be needed.
What brand and model is it?

I understand the reluctance to spend a lot of money.....some comments on that....

1. It may be tough or impossible to sell the house with a known dangerous and not up to code situation, so it may have to be removed or fixed.
2. Say your prayers and cross your fingers - it just MIGHT be that a tax credit program called Homestar comes into being soon.....if so, maybe it covers a new stove and installation like the one that expired in 2010.

Google Homestar to see if it is coming along.....not sure.

 

[Exmasonite]

thanks for all the info, everybody.

When we purchased the house, we did have to check and there was a permit pulled for the stove insulation back in the 90's. It was enough to satisfy our insurance company. I have 2 theories on how that happened:

1) There was an prior stove with an 8" flue/pipe that has since been cut and trimmed to allow the 6" pipe.
or
2) Edit: inspector was an idiot

I really don't know which one, nor do i care as i'm left dealing with the aftermath. Unfortunately, my naivete (coupled with a rather shoddy home inspector of my own) caused me to take the permit at face value.

Any recommendations on good stove pros in Northwest CT? I talked to one guy (won't give names) and all he wanted to do was to install a chimney liner and have me send him digital pics of everything to give me a quote (as in, not interested in setting foot on property). not very impressive, to say the least.

 

[Exmasonite]

Had another question... It was asked over in the pellet mill whether my chimney was simple brick or if it had tiles on the inside. In my ignorance, i'm not sure so i snapped some pics and posted over in that thread. Figured i'd ask for opinions over here, too.

Instead of reposting pics (and put undue strain on server), here's link to my other thread: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/71233/

What do you think?

 

[BrotherBart]

It is tile lined. And those bottom tiles and the thimble through the wall have a serious glaze creosote problem.

Line it with an insulated liner which ever way you go. For pellet that would be a four inch liner. But I would put a six inch in instead in case you decide someday to replace the pellet stove with a wood burner. You need the liner for the pellet stove to establish a draft. If you don't and the electricity goes off that pellet stove can fill your house with smoke. The exhaust from a pellet stove isn't hot enough to keep a proper draft going in that large a tile chimney.

 

[begreen]

+1 Excellent advice.

Have you tried Preston Trading Post in Preston, CT?

http://www.prestontradingpost.com/

 

[cj-8_jim]

My 2cents:

- fix thimble
- install yourself a SS insulated liner... I did 25' a year ago... I think it was around $500 total (including ceramic insulation, SS cap, SS chimney cover, SS liner, SS adapter, etc).
- move pellet stove to 1st floor. When economy improves, upgrade pellet stove to stove of your choice (wood or pellet).


PM me (I'm not subscribing to this thread) if you want me to dig up the vendors and pricing I got 14 months ago.

 

[delp]

Exmasonite,

I wish you well with your project, but, really, your Stevie Wonder comment is way out of line --it is racist AND extremely disrespectful to folks with are vision impaired. I trust you meant no harm, but each and every word we choose to write or say really does matter.

All the best to you.

 

[zzr7ky]

Line chimney. - I went insulated rigid; it took a couple hours to install. That will get the stove performing much better.

The wood issue: guess 10-30% better with good dry would, Say Ash cut and split this month or next. OAK - probably a waste.

Once that is done you can assess burn time and see if you want/need a bigger stove box for longer burn times. I would guess yes.



Pellets - Rabbits make those, I hear little and know less...

ATB,
Mike

 

[Exmasonite]

BeGreen- Thanks for info. I'm up in torrington, opposite side of state but will keep them in mind. Have call into a contractor recommended by Green Mountain Stove Co in New Hartford, CT (don't do installs/service themselves).

Delp- I apologize for any offense... post edited.

zzr7ky- Thanks for the info. Not sure if that is something i want to tackle myself. I'm ALMOST interested in trying it but likley need a pro to handle thimble issues as i'm rather stymied. I consider myself somewhat handy but here's a follow up question:

If i ever go to sell house, will i want/need a permit or licensed installer on that liner?

 

[Exmasonite]

Also-

CJ-8: Hoping to be able to salvage wood stove on first floor or possibly upgrade to another wood stove. In hindsight, pellet stove in basement does serve its purpose of keeping basement warm. Now... i could move that pellet stove up and eventually get another one for the basement. If i'm going to go to the expense of lining the chimney, i'll likely keep burning wood. Only entertained moving the pellet stove if it was a way to save $$ from lining chimney. Thanks though.

 

[Exmasonite]

Well, i've sorta got dueling threads going over here and in the pellet mill but figure i've got it broken down to 5 viable options. Cost is somewhat a factor but common sense and safety will always win out. Here's what I can come up with and see what people think:

1) Try to fix/seal thimble so no smoke leaks back into house and do nothing else. Still, safety is big concern and realize this is quick/easy fix... Not entertaining this one very seriously.

2) Line chimney, fix thimble, keep on using wood stove. (The RIGHT thing to do... of course, likely the most $$)

3) Retire wood stove, move pellet stove to 1st floor and vent into current masonry chimney. (Another corner cutting option... chance this could work pretty well. Then again, might not)

4) Same as 3 but line chimney (Only advantage this offers is ease of pellet use, stove has blower (wood stove doesn't). Probably costs a little more $$ to run vs wood but also less time since i wont have to buck, split, stack wood)

5) Same as 3 but forget chimney/thimble and vent pellet stove out its own thimble/pipe (advantage is $$$ as i might be able to get away with 10-15' vertical run of pellet pipe vs. 25' chimney liner)

And i guess there is an option 6
6) forget it all and just pay the oil man.

But, i really don't want to do number 6. Have greatly enjoyed my beginner experiences in wood and pellet burning, hoping to continue them.

Have a tech from Valley Fireplace and Stove in Canton, CT coming out to the house next week to assess... $50 for inspection didn't seem bad and at least guy was willing to come check everything out and not just make decisions over the phone.

Really wish we knew that we'd be staying in this house for the long haul is that would make financial considerations a no-brainer.

Thanks again for all the help and looking forward to any other advice people have.

 

[BrotherBart]

Really wish we knew that we'd be staying in this house for the long haul is that would make financial considerations a no-brainer.

Like the grape vineyard I didn't put in because we were only gonna be in this house two to three years when we moved in. In April of 1985. >:-(

 

[begreen]

Same for me with the well I never put in. By now it would have paid for itself. Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

 

[Exmasonite]

well... wanted to update since the stove guys came out today:

They came and looked at everything and are recommending only to fix the thimble issue for now and possible look at altering/changing cap at top of chimney (in case it's impeding flow). They say the chimney is in good shape and does NOT need a liner.

Now, that being said, here's where it gets weird:

I asked about getting newer/better/more efficient wood burning stove. IF i were to do that, they said i would most likely need a liner. (I'm getting confused, too). The tech who was out admitted he had to talk to the owner of the company (who handled more of the stove sales but was also the "expert") but said whenever they do a stove install, they all but insist on putting in a chimney liner. But he also admitted most of the installs were on older chimneys in much worse shape which is why he said there might be an exception made here.

So, i am somewhat confused: If i keep my older stove, no chimney liner needed. If i were to get a newer stove, i'd likely need a liner. Seems very counter-intuitive to me.

Regardless, due to $$, going to fix thimble issue and see how current stove burns and monitor really close.


P.S. "Liner" (which tech said would be $1000-1200, would consist of uninsulated FLEXI liner which was "the best" and would "last a lifetime".


Opinions on the "advice" i received today?

 

[Wood Duck]

I think to have an install 'by the book' you need a liner, and if the company you talked to was to install a new stove they'd be liable for problems, so they'd insist you do it by the book, i.e. they'd insist on a liner. However, in the tech's opinion the existing chimney is probably OK for the stove to work in an acceptable way, so he is giving you a cheaper option than a liner, which is to repair the thimble.

My stove currently is hooked up like yours, without the leaky thimble, and I think it is working fine. My tile-lined chimney is 6 inches diameter, I think. Yours is larger, it appears. A too-large flue can mean a poor draft. I have no idea whether your set-up would be OK if you fix the leak.

If you want my opinion, I'd fix the thimble first and see how that works. I would do it properly, whatever that means, not just stuff some insulation in a crack. I'd plan to keep to wood stove. If money is tight you cn cut your own wood.

 

[pen]

new stoves require more draft than older stoves and a proper diameter liner improves draft to help insure they work. The other issue is the new stove will probably be around 15 to 20+ years. They want to make sure the chimney will be serviceable for just as long.

pen