Introduction and Old Stove Advice Needed

[mopar440_6]

Hi all! I've been lurking for about a month now and decided it was time to join so I wanted to give an introduction and some background before I started asking all the stupid questions. Sorry for the long post.

I'm a 28yo engineer from south central PA and I'm sort of a noob when it comes to wood burning. I grew up on a diary farm in an 1800's built farmhouse with a monstrous old (probably 1960's) Baker Double Eagle wood stove that my Dad used to supplement the oil heat. I learned the routine of cut, split, stack, and season there but never really did much with operating the stove (Dad stopped using it when I got older as they had upgraded to gas heat). I do remember that he would stack it completely full (probably 3-4cu.ft.), get it roaring hot, and shut it down with the air controls and key damper for overnight burns. There would usually be a 2-3" bed of good coals in the morning with that old thing. My guess is that he was smoldering the fire and I'm not sure how that old unlined brick chimney never went up in smoke.

Fast forward 15 years and my wife and I recently purchased a new house which came equipped with a coal/wood stove in the basement. This stove is also a Baker (much newer but a similar design to the smoke dragon that I grew up around). The stove model is a Heat King and some pictures are attached. I will be getting new firebricks and retainers this weekend. After talking with the manufacturer, I've been told that it is only certified as a coal stove but they stated that it will also burn wood. I have the manual for the stove but it is not very helpful since they cannot put anything regarding a wood fuel in it. I do not want to burn coal because coal costs money but I can get wood for the price of fuel to run my saw and my time.

The stove is vented with 7" single wall pipe (one 90 degree elbow) through a crock in a 12" poured concrete wall into an 8"x13" clay lined exterior 32' tall chimney. The chimney is centered and goes 32" above the peak of the roof. Some days it has a nasty downdraft but I can usually take care of that by cracking the basement window and burning a piece of newspaper in the stove. Once the chimney gets some heat though, it pulls like a freight train. The house was built in 2003 so the chimney should meet current codes as is. I had the chimney cleaned and inspected prior to using the stove for the first time. The (CSIA) sweep only found one 2" hairline crack in the outside face (furthest from the house) of the very bottom liner tile. The crack is visible only from inside the basement looking through the crock and does not go completely through the exterior of the liner tile (the opposite face can be seen from outside looking through the cleanout door). I would consider it a surface fracture. The sweep said because they are CSIA certified that officially they must recommend a reline if there are ANY defects in the chimney. Unofficially he said I would probably be fine to use the chimney as long as I keep an eye on the crack to make sure it doesn't get any bigger or accumulate any creosote.

The sweep company sent an estimate for a reline and quoted $2300 for an insulated flex liner installed. While I would love to install a full stainless liner and a new EPA rated stove, $5K+ is not in the budget right now having just bought the house. I am only trying to heat the basement when I'm there (evenings and some weekends) and maybe supplement the upstairs heat with the ducting from the blower when it gets really cold.

I have burned 3-4 fires so far and have not been very happy with the results. When we moved in, the stove was equipped with a barometric damper. I burned two fires with the barometric damper and never felt like I could properly control the stove or get the wood to last any significant period of time. I was also using wood that the previous owners had left there. After some reading and checking I determined that the wood was sub-par at 23-25% MC and that I wanted to get rid of the barometric damper for burning wood for safety reasons (if there ever was a chimney fire). I have since gotten about a face cord of 14-18% oak, maple, and hickory from my Dad's wood pile and installed a key damper 10" above the flue collar of the stove.

I burned a fire last night with the key damper now installed and still was not happy with the results. I ran a small load (4 medium splits and a handful of small splits and kindling) and once it lit off my stove pipe temperatures headed for 650*F+ before the stove top was even at 200*F. (These are measured with a Fluke digital thermometer and thermocouples.) Not wanting to shock the stove or chimney, I started to back the stove down some and it began to black out the glass so I opened it back up a little. Once I sort of had it dialed in it seemed to cruise around 450*F stove top and 325*F pipe burning semi-clean with the draft controls at 50%, upper controls at 75%, and flue damper wide open. That only lasted for about half an hour before all the wood was coals and the temperatures started falling off. I kicked the draft controls back to 100% and threw in 4 more medium splits (Any more wood and it starts to run away and the only way to slow it down is to smolder it). Once I had it going and all of the wood seemed to be coaled over I started to back it down but the stove never really seemed to come back up to temperature. After about another 45 minutes the wood was almost completely coals and the temps were steadily falling so I closed it down to about 25% (anything less and the glass goes black) and went to bed. The stove was completely cold by this morning.

So, now for the stupid questions:
-Can I use this coal stove somewhat efficiently for wood or should I sell it and look for a used newer stove?
-Is the masonry chimney safe to use as long as I make sure that the crack is not getting any larger?
-What is the MAX stove pipe and/or flue gas temperature that I can safely send through a clay lined chimney?
-If a reline is truly necessary, why couldn't I just use uninsulated rigid SS since the chimney is already clay lined and should have the required clearances to combustibles? It would have had to be up to code for the permits to have been signed off when the house was built right?
-What kind of temperatures (stove and pipe) should I expect when the stove is cruising?
-How should I operate this thing to get decent heat without coating the chimney and burning my house down?
-Should I just expect to run the stove wide open with very small amounts of wood or is there a way to put in a bigger load of wood and keep the temperatures from crossing the 4-digit line?

Thank you all for the indirect advice I have gathered so far and thanks in advance for any advice you can give me. I have a feeling this is going to be another addiction once I get everything figured out. I'm already making plans to C/S/S a couple cords now for next season...

 

[blades]

1. Sell and get a current unit
2. more than likely could just run a plain liner but at the risk of accumulating creosote due to the nature of a un-insulated flue causing condensation of the creosote particulates out of the exhaust gases . Takes a long time to get one those hot enough to prevent condensation.
3 I do not know this answer
4 see 2
5 Likely around 3-400 at apx 2 ft above exit of stove , at least that is where I tried to keep mine at
6 seen those wood hogs with the single wall black pipe glowing red more than I care to course then it's warm enough to prevent creosote from forming most of the way up.
7 see 1
8 hard to put a big load in those and get decent heat with out a too high flue temp nature of the beast. Got to kinda spoon feed them to keep things in check and provide heat at same time.

If the basement is uninsulated 30% or more of your heat wasted out walls.
Lot of different replacement options depending of pocket book but be aware that in furnaces there are only a few that were designed strickly for wood use, those that can use coal also are not much better, if at all, than what you now have. The dynamics of burning coal are completely different than those of wood.

 

[blades]

Dang forgot my manners Welcome to the forum

 

[mellow]

Coal stove has the air coming through the shaker grates, not the greatest for wood.
I stand by what the sweep said
600-800 degree exhaust temps is not uncommon on startup
Crack in terracotta calls for insulated liner so you have zero clearance to combustibles
I would shoot for stove top temps of 400-700, but that depends on the stove
You will need to burn it hot in order to keep creosote buildup down

Surprised the sweep didn't mention that hood is against code.

Get rid of that coal stove and put in an Englander NC-30 budget stove, you will need to get 6" pipe.

 

[mopar440_6]

...If the basement is uninsulated 30% or more of your heat wasted out walls.
Lot of different replacement options depending of pocket book but be aware that in furnaces there are only a few that were designed strickly for wood use, those that can use coal also are not much better, if at all, than what you now have. The dynamics of burning coal are completely different than those of wood.

Thanks for the welcome Blades. The basement is uninsulated for now but we plan to finish it in the future and I'm still not sure how to deal with the stove pipe when we do finish the basement but that's another issue.

There's really nothing left in the pocket book after buying the house and the holidays here. Even the cheapest options I've found (budget stove and installing a flex liner kit myself) will still be in the $2K+ range. Going to be a long time till I can afford to spend anything on a stove and reline so it sounds like my electric bill is going to go up since it sounds like I shouldn't use this thing at all.

I want to stay away from the wood furnaces because while it would help heat the rest of the house, they don't give off any radiant heat to heat the basement. Are there any stoves that have provisions for ducting to be attached to the blower?

Surprised the sweep didn't mention that hood is against code.

When you say the hood is against code are you talking about the part where the ductwork attaches? That part is welded (sealed) to the blower outlet of the stove and its from the manufacturer like that. What about it doesn't meet code?

 

[DougA]

Is this the only source of heat for the house. I re-read but I may have missed it if you did post it. If not, I would take the old unit and sell it for scrap. Spend whatever money you can afford to finish the basement, then get a good wood stove in the future. blades is right, a stove in an unfinished basement is wasting a LOT of heat.
-What kind of temperatures (stove and pipe) should I expect when the stove is cruising? It's not the cruising temps you want to worry about, it's the temps just before cruising. I had a digital thermometer in the flue of my old VC and it could easily hit 1200 before turning the air down.

If this is your only source of heat, I would also look into a wood furnace if you have access to a lot of free or cheap wood. If not, a mid or high efficiency NG furnace is what I would put in until you can do something else.

 

[mopar440_6]

Is this the only source of heat for the house. I re-read but I may have missed it if you did post it. If not, I would take the old unit and sell it for scrap. Spend whatever money you can afford to finish the basement, then get a good wood stove in the future. blades is right, a stove in an unfinished basement is wasting a LOT of heat.
-What kind of temperatures (stove and pipe) should I expect when the stove is cruising? It's not the cruising temps you want to worry about, it's the temps just before cruising. I had a digital thermometer in the flue of my old VC and it could easily hit 1200 before turning the air down.

If this is your only source of heat, I would also look into a wood furnace if you have access to a lot of free or cheap wood. If not, a mid or high efficiency NG furnace is what I would put in until you can do something else.

Sorry, my fault for not specifically mentioning it. The stove is supplemental heat only. The first and second floors are on propane forced air furnaces (2-zone).

 

[husky345 vermont resolute]

Get a epa stove. Why better then that boat anchor

 

[mellow]

When you say the hood is against code are you talking about the part where the ductwork attaches? That part is welded (sealed) to the blower outlet of the stove and its from the manufacturer like that. What about it doesn't meet code?

Ahh, looks like it is open above the stove from the pictures. The worry about that is CO/smoke leaking from the stove and going straight upstairs. Ducting from a wood stove is not allowed, only certified wood furnaces. If you want to keep the duct take a look at the Drolet Tundra furnace.

 

[DougA]

I'll change my post. Instead of selling it for scrap, post it on craigslist. I posted my old stove and will get enough that I could buy a cheap new stove.

BTW, welcome to the forum and sorry that all of us are giving you bad news.

 

[mopar440_6]

Well, after all the bad news in this thread I decided to visit the local stove shop tonight. They quoted the relining and came in at $100 less than the previous estimate from the sweep company so at least I know why the quotes are so high (labor to break out and remove the clay liner). I also looked at a few stoves and after reading the reviews on here I think I've got my sights set on a QuadraFire 5700. The manager I worked with at the stove shop also gave me some great ideas on how to use the existing duct work from the old stove to move the heated air from the basement to the 2nd floor using a thermostat controlled duct booster and how to finish the basement while still keeping a hearth area that meets code. It's a pile of money but I think it's a worthwhile investment that will increase the value of the house in the long run.

Now, the question is can I safely use the existing stove occasionally in the interim as long as I make sure to burn it hot enough to stay (somewhat) clean?

 

[begreen]

Code says a return air duct needs to be at least 10 ft away from the stove.

 

[mopar440_6]

Code says a return air duct needs to be at least 10 ft away from the stove.

That's what I discussed with the manager at the shop. He said that because this stove came from the manufacturer with the duct connector that it does meet code but only because it's a coal stove and that no wood only stoves would have such a connection (unless we went with a wood furnace). So, to satisfy code and still move the heated air to the 2nd floor, we would remove the portion of the duct running up from the current stove and across the basement ceiling. Then put the duct booster in the vertical pipe running upstairs. The vertical pipe is on the opposite side of the basement some 15-20' away from the stove.

 

[mellow]

The QF is a good stove, but before you invest in that I would take a serious look at the Englander 30NC that I mentioned before, it can be found at Lowes and Home Depot under Summers Heat brand name. It is a good basement stove that won't break the bank, you can sometimes find a 10% coupon to use on it or slide over to DE to buy it with no sales tax.

You can keep using that stove, heck it has been used this long, just keep an eye on it. For peace of mind I would get a digital thermometer with a thermocouple you can put in the stovepipe, the Auber one has an alarm that will go off at set temps, they now even have one that is wireless you can keep upstairs: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=441

The good thing is the Auber can be used on the new stove as well.

Edit: I just checked and the Englander 30 at Home Depot is $899! That is a heck of a deal for this time of year.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Englander-2-200-sq-ft-Wood-Burning-Stove-30-NCH/100291302

 

[mopar440_6]

The QF is a good stove, but before you invest in that I would take a serious look at the Englander 30NC that I mentioned before, it can be found at Lowes and Home Depot under Summers Heat brand name. It is a good basement stove that won't break the bank, you can sometimes find a 10% coupon to use on it or slide over to DE to buy it with no sales tax.

You can keep using that stove, heck it has been used this long, just keep an eye on it. For peace of mind I would get a digital thermometer with a thermocouple you can put in the stovepipe, the Auber one has an alarm that will go off at set temps, they now even have one that is wireless you can keep upstairs: http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=441

The good thing is the Auber can be used on the new stove as well.

Edit: I just checked and the Englander 30 at Home Depot is $899! That is a heck of a deal for this time of year.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Englander-2-200-sq-ft-Wood-Burning-Stove-30-NCH/100291302

I've already looked at the NC-30 based on your prior recommendation. It is my budget option along with installing the liner myself. My only concern with going that route is breaking out the clay liner myself since I don't have the special drill adapter/breaker thing that the stove shops have. But I could get an NC-30 and buy the liner kit from the local shop (their price for just the components is comparable to the online places after shipping) and still keep the total cost under $2K as long as there were no major issues.

The QF has a timed bypass option that I think would be really helpful. It allows you to start/reload the stove with the bypass open and set your primary control to the normal cruising setting. Then once the secondaries are lit and the mechanical timer runs out it will close the bypass automatically. I need to do some research and see if it actually works without letting the stove run wide open for too long or shutting it down before the secondaries are going fully.

I already have a Fluke digital thermocouple thermometer and I've been measuring stove top and external stove pipe temperatures with the high temp thermocouples. But that Auber remote unit is really nice too. I have a high temp probe to stick into the pipe to get the actual flue gas temperature with the Fluke. When I install the probe in the pipe what should I consider the "panic button" temperature for the flue gas?

 

[begreen]

My understanding of the ACC on Quads is a boost (start) air control, not a bypass control. Personally I like the KISS principle with stoves. With dry wood and kindling starting the stove is easy. And in real winter country one is running the stove 24/7.

 

[matt1@]

It's kind of odd how the acc works on these stoves. The small control on the bottom right is pushed all the way back to set the timer and then pulled forward (rear air closed) but since you've set the timer, the rear air is still open and the primary air control is essentially disabled (bypassed by timer) to be open fully to give the most air to the firebox for startup regardless of if it's in the closed position or not. When the timer runs it slowly closes the rear air completely and closes the bypass air to restore the primary control, so if you have primary air closed, it will slowly go from full to minimum air or anywhere in between depending where primary lever is set by you. This works decently, the only problem is all wood is different. Moisture content, species, and just size of splits all change and the timer doesn't, so expect at least some manual tinkering and leaving the door open for a while to help light it. Quad should let you adjust the timer itself to dial it in as open and close times vary. I really like the large 5700 though. My buddy has one and loves it. It'll take 24" logs which comes in handy if you wanna load that baby up on a cold night. The 30nc does look very nice considering the price though. I bought mine before I found this site but probably would have considered that stove also due to good reviews.

 

[blades]

That fancy priced clay tile liner buster is nothing more than a piece of 4x4-6x6 inch square steel with a fitting , off set slightly so it whips all over, on it to attach sweep rods to electric drill. I have a couple of sweeps that bring them in to have the corners built back up with weld. Most of the money is pure labor to drag all the busted stuff back up from the basement.
Short lesson: masonry flues are attacked by the by-products of combustion and condensation which creates an acidic environment. Over time the the joints get broken down by this acid. The problem is more prevalent now because almost all furnaces and hot water heaters do not have a standing pilot as they used to. That standing pilot of old kept the condensation at bay and hence the acidic creation as well. This is more prevalent in the colder areas of the country than southern due to our extreme temp swings, particularly in the fall and spring.

 

[mopar440_6]

It's kind of odd how the acc works on these stoves. The small control on the bottom right is pushed all the way back to set the timer and then pulled forward (rear air closed) but since you've set the timer, the rear air is still open and the primary air control is essentially disabled (bypassed by timer) to be open fully to give the most air to the firebox for startup regardless of if it's in the closed position or not. When the timer runs it slowly closes the rear air completely and closes the bypass air to restore the primary control, so if you have primary air closed, it will slowly go from full to minimum air or anywhere in between depending where primary lever is set by you. This works decently, the only problem is all wood is different. Moisture content, species, and just size of splits all change and the timer doesn't, so expect at least some manual tinkering and leaving the door open for a while to help light it. Quad should let you adjust the timer itself to dial it in as open and close times vary. I really like the large 5700 though. My buddy has one and loves it. It'll take 24" logs which comes in handy if you wanna load that baby up on a cold night. The 30nc does look very nice considering the price though. I bought mine before I found this site but probably would have considered that stove also due to good reviews.

matt1@, thanks for the info. Good to know there are some other (semi) local people who have Quads and like them. I really like the 5700 just for the firebox size and design aside from the ACC system. I assumed there would be some manual tinkering until I got it dialed in. Learning curve with anything new of course but might be a nice to have. However, I think budgetary constraints are going to dictate the NC-30 for the time being and maybe upgrade down the road.

That fancy priced clay tile liner buster is nothing more than a piece of 4x4-6x6 inch square steel with a fitting , off set slightly so it whips all over, on it to attach sweep rods to electric drill. I have a couple of sweeps that bring them in to have the corners built back up with weld. Most of the money is pure labor to drag all the busted stuff back up from the basement.
Short lesson: masonry flues are attacked by the by-products of combustion and condensation which creates an acidic environment. Over time the the joints get broken down by this acid. The problem is more prevalent now because almost all furnaces and hot water heaters do not have a standing pilot as they used to. That standing pilot of old kept the condensation at bay and hence the acidic creation as well. This is more prevalent in the colder areas of the country than southern due to our extreme temp swings, particularly in the fall and spring.

blades, I saw a picture of one of the tile busters the other day. I do some fabrication so making one wouldn't be difficult for me at all (in fact, I think I have a 4x4x1/2 piece of tool steel at the shop already). I am leaning towards going the route of doing the reline myself but I've got two different shops telling me two different things. One says the clay has to go, the other says its not an issue. You can see my relining thread here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/correct-way-to-reline.137654/ if you like. I think if I attempt the reline myself, I'll either order oval liner or break the tiles. That's good information about the degradation of the masonry liners. Luckily, all of my gas appliances are vented with PVC.