installation "holy crap" moment

[noiruuk]

I have been looking around for a plumber to come install my new EKO-40 to my forced air system (via plenum heat exchanger) and water heater (via sidearm heat exchanger). I had one reputable fellow come in the other day, and today he sent me a quote of $3600 for installation. I have all of the major components, because I got my unit as a kit, so he would be installing the piping between the components as well as attaching the unit to the flue. Is that price way high? For some reason I had thought that installation of this unit would be more in the $1000-$2000 range.

I have a couple other plumbers giving me quotes later in the week, but I thought I'd ask the knowledgeable that read these forums what they thought of that price...

 

[MrEd]

You know, after having just completed the tarm install myself, I can now see why plumbers charge so much. Its not a quick thing to setup, and there is a lot of details take care of.

Not sure how much of that $3600 is "parts", and how much is labor, but not including the chimney which I had to put in, I probably spent $1500 on miscellaneous "parts" and then spent good deal of many, many days doing the work (much more than it would take a pro). So if the labor was $2000, and he is charging say $75/hr, you are only talking about 3 or so days of work.

If you are a betting person, you could try and find someone that will work on time and materials - maybe it will come in cheaper, but maybe not.

 

[muncybob]

It's in line with what I was quoted here in central PA.

 

[Tony H]

Whats the breakdown on parts and labor ? I spent 1500 + for materials to pipe mine mostly copper ie 1 1/4 copper pipe is something like 5.00 a foot and that plus fittings adds up very quick. If he is providing all the connecting pipe it sounds like its in the ballpark.
You could also get a quote from a HVAC shop that installs and services boilers they would have guys that can do all the pipe plus sheet metal and even AC.

Or you could just take a vacation from your job and work on the boiler for a couple of weeks.

 

[noiruuk]

He is supplying all of the materials aside from the major components that came with the EKO. So he'll provide the copper tubing and any other associated stuff with that, as well as connect the unit to the flue and wiring to the unit and all other hardware required for that. The price includes his material, labor and tax.

All I've received so far is the sum total - the actual paper quote is in the mail with (I assume) a breakdown of cost.

 

[free75degrees]

If you are handy and you think you might be able to do it yourself, then you probably can. I really didn't think I could do my own install, but with the great help and advice from this board, I did. I think there are a bunch of people who had similar experiences too. You could save a lot of money and also you would then be the expert on your system so you'd be able to make future fixes/changes much more easily.

 

[noiruuk]

Well after that quote, doing it myself certainly came to mind. I've only done a little work with copper tubing - years ago using a disposable torch from Home Depot. I'm pretty handy and learn quick - i'm just scared to death of screwing it up. I would definitely take the time to do it myself (one can never have too much knowledge) if it was realistic that a rookie can install such a system without breaking it.

 

[MrEd]

A rookie can defintely do the install, if you put a lot of thought and planning into it. The really great thing about doing the install, is you then really understand the system. I am a handy guy, do all my own plumbing, electric carpentry etc, but the boiler was always a big box in the cellar I knew nothing about - and it always bothered me there was the critical piece of equipment in the home I couldn't deal with - but now I can. It isn't easy to do, but it is doable.

Almost anything that goes wrong, I could figure out (or ask on hearth.com) and fix it. It is a nice feeling that goes with the nice independent feeling you get from burning wood in the first place.

 

[free75degrees]

the boiler was always a big box in the cellar I knew nothing about - and it always bothered me there was the critical piece of equipment in the home I couldn't deal with - but now I can. It isn't easy to do, but it is doable.

I feel like you are reading my mind. I just told somebody the other day that part of the reason I took on this project was because my boiler was the scariest part of the house.

noiruuk - just to give you a feel for the time it took me - I drove to NH in April to pick up my boiler and just finished the install 2 weeks ago. The install entailed building a tank from scratch, making copper coil heat exchanger (lots of bending and soldering), installing a metal chimney from my basement through a corner of my family room then through the roof, designing the plumbing and controls, and plumbing the whole thing together. Most was done on weekends and some limited hours on weekday evenings, with some weekends off for family commitments. So the bottom line is that it takes a long time. However, I see that you are connecting into a forced air system. Without knowing much about forced hot air, I would guess that your system will be much simpler to pipe because you don't have to deal with piping it in with another boiler. Also you didn't mention a tank, so that may be another simplification.

Whatever you end up doing you have an incredible technical resource in this site. There is no way i would have ever done this without the hearth.

 

[sinnian]

IDK about Pa, but in Maine the plumber would need to be solid fuel certified, so you will pay a little more in labor for that. THAT said, I paid 3k for my install, and that included parts.

 

[deerefanatic]

Is your plumber willing to do the plumbing in Pex? I know it's not as sexy as copper, but I did all my plumbing in pex, except for the big stuff which was iron. Pex is not only cheaper than copper, but much, much, MUCH faster, so it will save you time too...... And time is money. Many plumbers I would guess go copper instead because it "looks" more professional.... It can't hurt to ask.

I too recommend a self install. And if you DIY, then I REALLY recommend using pex..... No soldering required.

 

[noiruuk]

hmm...I didn't realize I could do most of this with Pex. That makes the DIY sound less intimidating. I already have Pex as my main tubing in the house. For some reason I thought the boiler system would be more "specialized" than my standard house plumbing.

 

[warm in VT]

I just did the same thing with mine. Exact same circumstances you detailed. I provided the heat exchangers and he did pex into the house to the DHW tank then copper for the rest of it. He also provided all valves etc for the project. The cost of mine with about 14 hours labor as he had the time to work on it was $1000.......

 

[deerefanatic]

The only thing with pex is make sure its Oxygen barrier pex.... And be sure not to scratch the o2 barrier off.......

 

[pybyr]

Is your plumber willing to do the plumbing in Pex? I know it's not as sexy as copper, but I did all my plumbing in pex, except for the big stuff which was iron. Pex is not only cheaper than copper, but much, much, MUCH faster, so it will save you time too...... And time is money. Many plumbers I would guess go copper instead because it "looks" more professional.... It can't hurt to ask.

I too recommend a self install. And if you DIY, then I REALLY recommend using pex..... No soldering required.

matt-- tell us about the details of your storage mentioned in your signature, please

 

[pybyr]

hmm...I didn't realize I could do most of this with Pex. That makes the DIY sound less intimidating. I already have Pex as my main tubing in the house. For some reason I thought the boiler system would be more "specialized" than my standard house plumbing.

PEX is great stuff to work with, and I say that only after having been won over to it after thinking that all plastic plumbing was second best.

the only thing to bear in mind is that you want to be sure you size your diameters of PEX to be able to move enough water flow to move all the BTUs from your EKO 40, which may well get you into sizes above 1 inch pex, which are harder to get hold of, and harder to find crimp or expander tools and fittings for.

(someone please remind me of options for non-exotic ways of connecting pex of 1.25 inches and larger)

some folks are using "parallelled" 1" lines and I may do that myself- unless I can borrow a tool that can work with the bigger pex, or find another way of working with the really big sizes of PEX

 

[mtfallsmikey]

No mention of Sharkbite, Tectite, etc. but that's what I did the bulk of my piping in. I believe I came out ahead of the game with that vs. crimp tools for 1/2"-1", especially since I'm not in the mech. contracting biz anymore. and, crimp tools are a PITA to use in a crawl space. Sharkbite, etc. can go directly from copper to PEX. so far I've not had any leaks. Double check your copper tube sizes on inlet/outlet of your hydrocoils guys, especially Heil/Bryant. Mine were 3/4" O.D., had to buy refrigeration reducing couplings to get to "normal" 3/4" copper (7/8" O.D.) size.

 

[stee6043]

I don't think shark-bites offer any fittings that will work with Pex-al-pex? I did my hot water heater relocation with standard pex and sharkbites but I had to buy some fancy (read - more expensive) compression fittings for the 1" pex-al-pex I'm running in my system. Perhaps I was lied to by Pexsupply.com? ha. They sent me an email stating in no uncertain terms that the sharkbites are for standard pex only....

But for the record - the sharkbite connections are awesome for normal plumbing. They allow you to go from copper to pex and back with one connector. I was very impressed. Worth the price, in my opinion.

 

[deerefanatic]

I used the stainless side cynch clamps and tool for my pex. Those stainless bands are rather cheap when bought in bulk, and the tool was $25 on ebay.......

Details of my tank..... Well, not much too it. I have a bottom fitting that leads to two Grundfos 15-58 pumps, one pointing in each direction. Then it goes to a wye strainer, then to the flat plate. Out of the flat plat, and up and around to the top fitting on the tank which has a dip-tube that goes down about 4 inches below water level.

Very simple setup actually. About 1150 gallons. (It's a 1250 tank and I wanted to leave room for expansion.)

 

[heaterman]

Just a word of caution regarding pex.

1. Don't start with the pex right at the boiler. Try to keep it "downstream" from your over temp safety loop. You don't want pex in an overheat or over pressure situation. Use copper or steel for the near boiler piping and use pex only for your run outs.

2. Keep in mind that pex and copper or steel are not equivalent on the ID. 1" pex is smaller diameter than copper and much smaller than steel. Flow rates will be affected.

 

[hkillam]

I too was caught off guard by the price of installing my Garn WHS 2000. Installation was just recently completed, and the cost of hook-up and materials was in the $3700 ballpark (don't have the printed copy yet, not sure of the EXACT amount). This included one Taco 007 F5 pump, steel pipe off of the Garn, some copper between the steel and the PEX, Flat Plate exchanger and a few elbows and extensions to plumb into my existing Propane boiler (in floor heat only).

Also included was penetrations into one existing building (PEX was already run into the new building which contains the Garn), a thermometer at the Flat Plate, all valves, and valves and stub outs for future additions of DWH loop and second building loop. Exclude the PEX - I ordered and installed/insulated that myself, from inside of the Boiler garage to just outside of the heated building. I also did all electrical work, including installation of the Exhaust blower, mounting and wiring of the control panel, connecting the low-water float valve, and wiring the power to the pump. I also had to reverse their physical install of the pump - they had it backwards, with the pump PULLing water all the way through the loop to and from the heated building, from the bottom of the tank, and pushing it back into the top of the tank - after the reverse everything works great, however. Does $3700 seem to be too high? I ask because I was never given an estimate of this material or labor, and thought that this was included in the contract I signed for the purchase of the Garn unit itself. OK, maybe I was naive about what was included, but that is why I asked to have it installed and didn't try it myself. I will pay what I believe is fair, but as I was never given an estimate, written or verbal, I'm going to be pretty critical of whatever material and labor rates they show me before I pay anything.

Opinions about whether $3700 sounds fair based on the job I described?

 

[rowerwet]

It cost me about 4K to connect my CB Maxim pellet boiler up. The pellet boiler is open to a flat plate HX, my oil furnace/ base board loops ( I split my house from one loop to three with manual shut off controls) are pressurized. PEX and sharkbites are the way to go, the only copper I will be using is for a sidearm preheater I am making for my paloma tankless water heater.
The total for all parts for all the modifications and new parts will be closer to 6K.