How to get around dealing with Pellet stove or other dealers? Part 2

[smwilliamson]

I was trying to respond to the OP but it was locked.

I have thought about making a "Climber's" Guide for pellet stove mechanics, and I just may....I have a business that specializes in service. I have identified about 15 unique ways in which people become alienated from dealer service; these reasons are a testament to why this forum is so credible. Much of what I know has come from hands on practice and stuff I learn here from all of you.

If you look at the birth of the automobile, that industry too created specialized products that ONLY dealers would have the parts and expertise to remedy. What they (automobiles) all had in common was the need for fuel.

As automobile sales increased, the demand for fuel led to a more systematic way of delivering it, and in 1914 Standard Oil of California opened a chain of 34 homogeneous stations along the West Coast. Major oil companies moved quickly to secure their own gas dealers, made possible by technical advances in gasoline pumps. Soon pumps were being installed not only at the new service stations, but in front of hardware stores, feed companies, livery stables, and a variety of other retailers. Curbside pumping was less common in the countryside. The early service stations along the roadside might be converted barns, stables, warehouses, or poorly constructed sheds.

Super service stations were important elaborations of the original filling stations. Introduced in Los Angeles prior to World War I, super service stations combined operations that had been handled separately. Before that time, a motorist went one place for gas and oil, and other places for lubrication and cleaning, and returned to the dealer for repairs and other accessories. Combining these activities was convenient for consumers and opened up new marketing possibilities for those interested in taking advantage of the boom in automobiles.

People shared all of the same frustrations we have with our heating via stoves. It's not that dealers do not want the business...its that many dealers do not know how to do the business well enough to stay in business.

The problem is that the manufacturers protect their dealers from like brand competition through geography yet do not enforce the service aspect to retain a dealership, or do not offer a "manufacturer" option AND are reluctant to open it up to competition from folks like me who actually WANT to do the work.

In the end, companies like mine will eventually proliferate the marketplace for service and the brands that want to remain credible will need to embrace the marketplace where the consumers feel most comfortable spending their money.

 

[Lousyweather]

Part of the problem might actually be that your business model and a dealer's business model is somewhat different. Often, for dealers, warrantee work and service work is a money-losing proposition. Why? Because the service departments are not run very well, with a perspective toward profitability. Its hard for anyone to get excited about anything if there's no money in it. Some of the warrantee agreements with these stove companies are literally decades old, with the service charges paid to the dealers as decades old as well. Pretty hard to travel 40 miles round trip in a service van, spend an hour or two fixing a stove, and only get $55, soup to nuts. I think money can be made in service, but some of the warrantee terms dealers have to agree to make it exceedingly difficult to do so. I think that needs to be changed.
Dealers also need to run their service departments like a business, with a mind toward profitability and open communication. If the stove in question is no longer under warrantee, the dealer needs to disclose the service charges PRIOR to the work being done, not AFTER its done, with the customer standing there, stickershocked. If its communicated prior, well, if the figure is too high, noone gets their time and efforts wasted.

And as an afterthought, there are plenty of good dealers with good service departments, as there are also plenty of independant service techs who DO NOT have good service and ethics as well....The pendulum can swing both ways.

 

[smwilliamson]

The key to any business is communication. Open, free communication. Dealers get into a pickle when they are afraid to charge enough and discount themselves into hole. MSRP is there for a reason. When you charge that amount, then you DO have enough money to perform warranty work. When you train and use your own staff for installs you KNOW the product will perform properly...and while you're there, how about SHOWING the customer how to use it and what to look for...then you don't have to babysit the customer or have them feel like you do not have the time for them when you really do not have the time for them.

Its like people are afraid of success and they wimp out. They undercut their competition for a weak profit and then sell too many products and cannot afford to service them or warranty them.

Charge more, work for less people, deliver higher quality jobs...thats a pretty good model.

Its not that my company model is set up different that others....I just know how to fail and I make choices that swing the other way. Comes from experience and practice.

 

[exoilburner]

Thanks for your perspectives. It is good to understand the details from your side of the fence. Makes the charges more tolerable. I would rather pay the fair rate and get the repair done right than get a bargain or a cheap warranty repair. And get the repair done right the first time.

The service tech that repairs mine actually looks for and takes care of all problems and not just what I called him for. Been a very good experience.

 

[Don2222]

Hi Scott

The dealers around me charge $99 labor for warranty work. They just want to get in an out that is all. Then the big box stores that sell stoves have no service at all! Just curbside service, they drop the stove off in front of your house and run! I got some pellets from Lowes and the guy really tried to be nice he helped me with about 5 bags and said wow look at the time! I have to run to go to my next drop off! Anyway, there is no consistancy but still it is hard to charge more for good service, times are tough and people do not have much money. People also do not realize that pellet stoves will get dirty and break if not properly maintained. If not taken care of, the stove will quit it is just a question of time. For many people, the stoves are too complicated to fix themselves! Also,There are many types of tools needed to properly work on a pellet stove! The best solution to me is for stores and dealers to contract their service work to someone with the expertise to perform quality and timely work!

 

[Lousyweather]

good points, Scott, except these days, in retail, so very few people actually value service until they need it. They dont need it when they buy the unit, thats the problem. They dont think they will ever need service either (and we all know better, dont we?). So, it nearly ALWAYS comes down to price....thats why you see so few retailers selling at MSRP.....they couldnt compete. Sure, there would be folks who would pay more for the service, but I submit that customer is an EXTREME minority these days, if I had to put a percentage on it....less than 5%.

People arent afraid of success, but they tire of being hammered day in and day out by people who always seem to insist on "a better deal" ("yea, I know thats the price, but what's MY price"?.....). Depending on your market area, this is more prevalent in certain areas, particularly where there are alot of fairly recent immigrants to an area (must be common in other parts of the world). We have solved that- we dont dicker. We get what we get for our units and our service. If you oversimplify this, it brings it home. If you wanna buy it from me, you pay my price. If you want me to fix it, you pay my price. If you dont like my prices, then please feel free to support my local competition, as it is capitalism at its best.

 

[Lousyweather]

Hi Scott

The dealers around me charge $99 labor for warranty work. They just want to get in an out that is all. Then the big box stores that sell stoves have no service at all! Just curbside service, they drop the stove off in front of your house and run! I got some pellets from Lowes and the guy really tried to be nice he helped me with about 5 bags and said wow look at the time! I have to run to go to my next drop off! Anyway, there is no consistancy but still it is hard to charge more for good service, times are tough and people do not have much money. People also do not realize that pellet stoves will get dirty and break if not properly maintained. If not taken care of, the stove will quit it is just a question of time. For many people, the stoves are too complicated to fix themselves! Also,There are many types of tools needed to properly work on a pellet stove! The best solution to me is for stores and dealers to contract their service work to someone with the expertise to perform quality and timely work!

Pretty cheap for labor. Your big box example is a good one in that they sell alot of stoves, and some pretty good ones too, but they are less expensive, the big boxes offer ABSOLUTELY no service, but hey, they still sell alot of stoves! Bolsters my point above. People almost always will not pay for service. Heck, how is the customer supposed to know good service from bad service anyways? Everyone SAYS they offer GREAT service, even the big boxes.
When we sell a stove we try to communicate to the customer that they DO require maintenance, because if they dont maintain them, the unit WILL stop working, and it WONT be covered under warrantee, and service is expen$ive. I dont think they listen much sometimes.

 

[Don2222]

Pretty cheap for labor. Your big box example is a good one in that they sell alot of stoves, and some pretty good ones too, but they are less expensive, the big boxes offer ABSOLUTELY no service, but hey, they still sell alot of stoves! Bolsters my point above. People almost always will not pay for service. Heck, how is the customer supposed to know good service from bad service anyways? Everyone SAYS they offer GREAT service, even the big boxes.
When we sell a stove we try to communicate to the customer that they DO require maintenance, because if they dont maintain them, the unit WILL stop working, and it WONT be covered under warrantee, and service is expen$ive. I dont think they listen much sometimes.

I agree, but even some people who listen just get busy with everything else and then the stove has a hopper fire or quits working and they call for help! Also the fact that this is a seasonal business means good service techs come and go. Also there are so many different stoves out there many average to good service techs still cannot fix them. Case in point, I have a friend with a Little Rascal, the tech spent 2 hours and charged $200 and could not fix it.
See > https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...in-other-words-gone-south.79957/#post-1022906

He said if he stayed longer and charge more there would be a slight chance he could fix it! It has the infamous Highway Mode error! Now the owner who got the stove for free went back to using propane and this almost brand new stove is just sitting there!

 

[smwilliamson]

good points, Scott, except these days, in retail, so very few people actually value service until they need it. They dont need it when they buy the unit, thats the problem. They dont think they will ever need service either (and we all know better, dont we?). So, it nearly ALWAYS comes down to price....thats why you see so few retailers selling at MSRP.....they couldnt compete. Sure, there would be folks who would pay more for the service, but I submit that customer is an EXTREME minority these days, if I had to put a percentage on it....less than 5%.

You may say that its 5%...if that is the case, then you aren't doing a very good job of selling your company as something unique. If people aren't willing to pay more for YOU, then you must be like everyone else. However, you run the risk of being arrogant when you tell the customer that this is my price and that's that. People very quickly forget about price when there are other option available to weigh the transaction. You cannot be outstanding if you are just shlepping stoves. You have to sell service.

The first service will offer to them is your opinion, then you fascillitate a transaction, then you deliver it, then you install it, then you educate them, then you clean it out and maintain it, you actually pick up the phone and call every single customer at least twice a year. You send email soft sells and promotional stuff, you get involved in something charitable and let your customers know about it.

Selling yourself is a heck of a lot of work because it is non-stop and it is all a service.

 

[Lousyweather]

actually, I said its LESS than 5%. All theoretical, Scott, and it doesnt always work in "real life".......I know youre a great tech, but Im not sure how much experience you have in the real world of retail sales (or, maybe Im just punch drunk)...everything you say SOUNDS really good, but the actual FACT is, like I said (and its a given its based on my own experience), very few poeple will PAY for your service regardless of how you sell yourself, since any stove company will tell you they offer GREAT service....I guess we disagree there...you assume the public acts rationally....what is one of the basic tenets of any Economics 101 course? That people act rationally...right. Service cannot be quantified in a world where people require quantification. One only appreciates it when they actually need it. Have a roof rake? Hard to appreciate it until the ice dams on your overhangs start backing up, water starts pouring in your living room, then you can actually appreciate it!

Call each person twice a year? Lets look at the logistics there. I figure we've sold around 3000 stoves in the past 10 years or so......twice a year? Rational to assume 10 minutes per call? 3000x10x2= 60000 minutes. Now, thats about 1000 hours per year, or, 125 man-days just to make the calls.....so, this would equate to someone spending quite literally half their time making phone calls.......

Well, maybe Im just jaded, but in these economic times, with the short personnel that retail shops have to have these days, I dont see it. maybe its just us, or this business, but I dont think folks really understand retail unless you actually try it.....and its tougher and tougher every year.

 

[Lousyweather]

I agree, but even some people who listen just get busy with everything else and then the stove has a hopper fire or quits working and they call for help! Also the fact that this is a seasonal business means good service techs come and go. Also there are so many different stoves out there many average to good service techs still cannot fix them. Case in point, I have a friend with a Little Rascal, the tech spent 2 hours and charged $200 and could not fix it.
See > https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...in-other-words-gone-south.79957/#post-1022906

He said if he stayed longer and charge more there would be a slight chance he could fix it! It has the infamous Highway Mode error! Now the owner who got the stove for free went back to using propane and this almost brand new stove is just sitting there!

well, there are alot of stoves, which is why we specialize in units we sell (Harman). Anything can be fixed, its just a matter of finding the right guy (or girl) to fix it, and paying for the parts...if the unit needs it.

 

[smwilliamson]

actually, I said its LESS than 5%. All theoretical, Scott, and it doesnt always work in "real life".......I know youre a great tech, but Im not sure how much experience you have in the real world of retail sales (or, maybe Im just punch drunk)...everything you say SOUNDS really good, but the actual FACT is, like I said (and its a given its based on my own experience), very few poeple will PAY for your service regardless of how you sell yourself, since any stove company will tell you they offer GREAT service....I guess we disagree there...you assume the public acts rationally....what is one of the basic tenets of any Economics 101 course? That people act rationally...right. Service cannot be quantified in a world where people require quantification. One only appreciates it when they actually need it. Have a roof rake? Hard to appreciate it until the ice dams on your overhangs start backing up, water starts pouring in your living room, then you can actually appreciate it!

Call each person twice a year? Lets look at the logistics there. I figure we've sold around 3000 stoves in the past 10 years or so......twice a year? Rational to assume 10 minutes per call? 3000x10x2= 60000 minutes. Now, thats about 1000 hours per year, or, 125 man-days just to make the calls.....so, this would equate to someone spending quite literally half their time making phone calls.......

Well, maybe Im just jaded, but in these economic times, with the short personnel that retail shops have to have these days, I dont see it. maybe its just us, or this business, but I dont think folks really understand retail unless you actually try it.....and its tougher and tougher every year.

I understand completely. You have to come at it from a position of control. I control my customers...in a nice way. There used to be a time when the off season hit and I'd be scraping by, so now I sell service contracts which are a set price. Check out my website to see pricing. If people want a deal, that's it. A service contract PRE PAID. Why is is it pre paid? Because in the down turn of the season, I need money in. I give them a deal and I get to have money to operate. By doing this I can pay the office staff to receive the money, do the bookkeeping pay the insurance, register the vehicles, take on new hires etc...My peers said that nobody would pre-pay for services...they were wrong. We send out email campaigns, post cards and phone calls to EVERY customer. We start in March as things wind down and because of this we do not really have a slow season. I do personally...because the girls in the office do a fantastic job.

You are coming at it from a position of weakness when you think people will not pay for it. 3000 stoves in 10 years? Man...I'd kill for those numbers in retail. You ought to get your retail and service in line with one another and turn up the heat! Try not to be too jaded. Think of it this way...you may be selling stove to the wrong people. One easy way to correct that...charge more and justify it through service. Check out Fallons Home and Hearth and Hampton Falls NH...they get it and do a very good business. Jim was telling me that they just eclipsed customer 10,000.

 

[Lousyweather]

yep, Jimmy runs and amazing business up there! He is Harman's #1 dealer IN THE WORLD, from what I hear. Huge sales area, some of it fairly affluent, but, you dont get to be #1 without doing something right, agreed.

 

[smwilliamson]

yep, Jimmy runs and amazing business up there! He is Harman's #1 dealer IN THE WORLD, from what I hear. Huge sales area, some of it fairly affluent, but, you dont get to be #1 without doing something right, agreed.

Affluent? Maybe Rye and parts of Hampton, but lets face it, it's still New Hampshire! The affluent don't use pellet stoves anyway...its too much work. Affluent or not....it not about the money one has to spend, it's about the money they will $ave. Selling from a position of strength to overcome price objections is done by selling yourself. That is what makes YOU different and when I say YOU I mean any stove shop. If you are into it and get it...all this work becomes much more fun and easier over time. The dude that is upset because YOU never told him he needed to clean it and now your charging him to fix it it an example of a only a partial sale. There should have been a service contract added on and scheduled the day it was installed. Then the customer KNOWS he is being taken care of before any problems ever occur.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

That Seacoast area of NH is a prime area for hearth shops. There are 3 other hearth shops not too far down on the same road plus Home Depot and Lowes that carries alot! Maybe it is due to alot of seasonal cottages with no central heat, the fact that the ocean breeze is much cooler at night and in the mornings even this time of year! I have been to the Harman dealer there, he also sells pool supplies in the summer. He has an awesome display of Harmans and Quads, even the pellet boilers on display that show the piping! Their service is much better too, because when he talks about pellet stove cleanings they always simply state "Stove Cleaning and Gasket Change!" This way the customer knows he is getting something more that just a rub down and re-used or old piece together gaskets! Anyway I really like the open trailer by the side of the road that has the stoves burning away. It attracts alot of attention!

See file photo below!
That trailer would be great for warming up a camp site ! ! ! ROFL

 

[Don2222]

I was trying to respond to the OP but it was locked.

I have thought about making a "Climber's" Guide for pellet stove mechanics, and I just may....I have a business that specializes in service. I have identified about 15 unique ways in which people become alienated from dealer service; these reasons are a testament to why this forum is so credible. Much of what I know has come from hands on practice and stuff I learn here from all of you.

If you look at the birth of the automobile, that industry too created specialized products that ONLY dealers would have the parts and expertise to remedy. What they (automobiles) all had in common was the need for fuel.

As automobile sales increased, the demand for fuel led to a more systematic way of delivering it, and in 1914 Standard Oil of California opened a chain of 34 homogeneous stations along the West Coast. Major oil companies moved quickly to secure their own gas dealers, made possible by technical advances in gasoline pumps. Soon pumps were being installed not only at the new service stations, but in front of hardware stores, feed companies, livery stables, and a variety of other retailers. Curbside pumping was less common in the countryside. The early service stations along the roadside might be converted barns, stables, warehouses, or poorly constructed sheds.

Super service stations were important elaborations of the original filling stations. Introduced in Los Angeles prior to World War I, super service stations combined operations that had been handled separately. Before that time, a motorist went one place for gas and oil, and other places for lubrication and cleaning, and returned to the dealer for repairs and other accessories. Combining these activities was convenient for consumers and opened up new marketing possibilities for those interested in taking advantage of the boom in automobiles.

People shared all of the same frustrations we have with our heating via stoves. It's not that dealers do not want the business...its that many dealers do not know how to do the business well enough to stay in business.

The problem is that the manufacturers protect their dealers from like brand competition through geography yet do not enforce the service aspect to retain a dealership, or do not offer a "manufacturer" option AND are reluctant to open it up to competition from folks like me who actually WANT to do the work.

In the end, companies like mine will eventually proliferate the marketplace for service and the brands that want to remain credible will need to embrace the marketplace where the consumers feel most comfortable spending their money.

Hi Scott

How many service contracts did you sell for last year?

 

[smwilliamson]

Hi Scott

How many service contracts did you sell for last year?

Last year, 73 I think, this year well over 400

 

[Don2222]

Last year, 73 I think, this year well over 400

Wow, that is the way to go! That really insures stability in providing the same great service!

 

[smwilliamson]

Hello

That Seacoast area of NH is a prime area for hearth shops. There are 3 other hearth shops not too far down on the same road plus Home Depot and Lowes that carries alot! Maybe it is due to alot of seasonal cottages with no central heat, the fact that the ocean breeze is much cooler at night and in the mornings even this time of year! I have been to the Harman dealer there, he also sells pool supplies in the summer. He has an awesome display of Harmans and Quads, even the pellet boilers on display that show the piping! Their service is much better too, because when he talks about pellet stove cleanings they always simply state "Stove Cleaning and Gasket Change!" This way the customer knows he is getting something more that just a rub down and re-used or old piece together gaskets! Anyway I really like the open trailer by the side of the road that has the stoves burning away. It attracts alot of attention!

See file photo below!
That trailer would be great for warming up a camp site ! ! ! ROFL

That's the burn trailer at Fallons Home and Hearth.

 

[save$]

Buy a furnace and from the onset the dealer will tell you about scheduling maintenance. Buy a pellet stove and it is a crap shoot if maintenance is mentioned, or advised. I like to maintain my pellet stove, but I wouldn't touch my oil fired hot air furnace or the oil fired hot water heater. Even though I seldom use the furnace, I still keep up with scheduled maintenance.
My new car has an "anything mechanical for as long as I own the car" warranty. That cost as much as a new Harman, but now that I am retired, I must keep cost as predictable as possible. It would well worth it for dealers to push these warranties or scheduled maintenances at the point of sale. The public needs to be educated that stoves need to maintained to be efficient and safe. Any stove owner needs to factor those costs when considering a transition to pellet burning for either a supplemental or primary heat source.
I have seen way too many stove sales that are sold like furniture. I've seen bad attitude dealers who have little regard for their customers once the sale is made, or who have an "attitude" when some ones comes in looking for help who didn't buy their stove from them. Yes, there is a niche for services such as those offered by smwilliamson and a whole lot of room for retail sales to improve on the sale to new stove owners.

 

[Lousyweather]

Buy a furnace and from the onset the dealer will tell you about scheduling maintenance. Buy a pellet stove and it is a crap shoot if maintenance is mentioned, or advised. I like to maintain my pellet stove, but I wouldn't touch my oil fired hot air furnace or the oil fired hot water heater. Even though I seldom use the furnace, I still keep up with scheduled maintenance.
My new car has an "anything mechanical for as long as I own the car" warranty. That cost as much as a new Harman, but now that I am retired, I must keep cost as predictable as possible. It would well worth it for dealers to push these warranties or scheduled maintenances at the point of sale. The public needs to be educated that stoves need to maintained to be efficient and safe. Any stove owner needs to factor those costs when considering a transition to pellet burning for either a supplemental or primary heat source.
I have seen way too many stove sales that are sold like furniture. I've seen bad attitude dealers who have little regard for their customers once the sale is made, or who have an "attitude" when some ones comes in looking for help who didn't buy their stove from them. Yes, there is a niche for services such as those offered by smwilliamson and a whole lot of room for retail sales to improve on the sale to new stove owners.

yea, I do my stove AND my furnace! Its important as well to keep up the scheduled maintenance on the furnace as well, as you point out.

Some dealers DO need to do a better job of informing their customers how to maintain their units. Sometimes its the dealership, sometimes its the salesperson, sometimes its the STOVE OWNER. Most folks can maintain their own units if they so choose, or hire someone to do a yearly cleaning and checkup. As a stove dealer though, I dont think its all our fault that folks dont maintain their units. There are folks out there who are just plain lazy, and dont want to go to the expense of hiring someone either. Those tend to be the problem units.

So, how do we make dealers better? Most manufacturers these days have training workshops, which are required for techs. I do wonder though, if they have the same thing for salespersons? We have our salespeople clean our burn displays, such that they know what to check, what to clean, what TO do, and what NOT to do. The salespersons generally arent techs, and have a basic idea of how to troubleshoot, but can only go so far, possibly a tech needs to be involved as some depth at some point. I think the stove Co's should step up a bit with quality control and/or better reimbursement for warrantee work to the dealers. The poster above mentioned "attitiude" when folks come in for help with units they bought somewhere else. Advice is fine, but a house call, I think that should be service charged......particularly if the stove is under warrantee and not purchased from the dealer. As dealers, we often get people who got a "helluva deal" from a competitor who now decides they dont want the original dealer to service their unit (distance, lead time for service are the most common reasons). Many stove co's basically freely admit warrantee work is a money-loser, and say that we are supposed to build possible warrantee losses into the original sale of the unit, and if we didnt sell it, we are starting at a loss. Get a new customer from helping them out? Maybe, but generally a quality stove will last quite some time. Wish I had a buck every time someone told me "I wish I bought it here..."

Another possible solution might be online cleaning instructions, as well as in the manual. (We can only suggest the customer read it, cant make them read it). Harman has theirs on their website (broken link removed to http://www.harmanstoves.com/en/Customer-Care/Cleaning-Instructions.aspx) , but in all fairness, it doesnt list ALL the pellet units they sell. PB105? Not there. P43? not there (yea, I know its virtually the same as the P61, evenso, its not listed), and where is the P35i? I cant imagine the big boxes do any better, and their salespeople GENERALLY know less, but they typically sell less expensive units, so, well, they get a mulligan on that, becasue they are, well, the big boxes.

I think, generally speaking, "you get what you pay for". There are sometimes killer deals to be sure, but they are few and far between, generally only gleaned by folks who really know their stoves and what they are doing. If its too good to be true, it probably IS "too good to be true".

Just a few ideas.
Good evening!