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Ashful

Minister of Fire
Mar 7, 2012
20,075
Philadelphia
I've been trying to do my own web development / SEO for my small business for way too long, and the results are really not helping my business. It's time to find a pro.

I get absolutely inundated with solicitations from SEO providers, mostly offshore if I had to guess from the poor English in most emails, and suspect they're probably not my best option. I'm really looking for either an independent consultant or company who can be a marketing partner, in terms of helping us to create the best web presence, within the budget of a small company.

The bit of research and books I've read on the subject indicate that all of the old hacks and tricks for SEO really don't work anymore, Google's AI has just become too smart to be "tricked" into placing undeserving sites near the top of search results, and anyone promising such is basically a modern snake oil salesman. Content rules, and I'll admit that as a mostly one-man operation focused almost entirely on engineering and managing fabricators, I'm not super content-rich. I know that will be an ongoing obstacle, at least in the short-term, but I also know there are ways to help maximize the impact of even minimal content, of which I am just a total noob.

So, how does one go about finding a good web development and/or SEO consultant, partner, or provider? Anyone here in the biz?

Thanks!
 
We have looked at it for our 2 businesses. I think we started having work done on the larger of the 2. We interviewed a lot of people and were shocked at the prices. I think you’re on the right track talking to the companies. If you talk to enough people you can weed out the junk.
 
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If this is a marketing question then start by asking
- Where do your clients look first when starting out cold to find your specific niche of engineering?

How long is a typical project and how often do they come by? I'm not convinced that expenive SEO optimization is going to pay back well if we're talking about 2-3 clients a year. If we are talking about 2-3 a week, then yes. If it's just one a month, then having a clean and professional looking website with standard SEO optimiazations that details services may be sufficient. The website could be as little as 2 pages. Then, getting a link for this website listed in key places, may be more valuable. A quarterly newsletter may also be a good way to keep your company name in the back of future clients' minds.
 
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If this is a marketing question then start by asking
- Where do your clients look first when starting out cold to find your specific niche of engineering?

How long is a typical project and how often do they come by? I'm not convinced that expenive SEO optimization is going to pay back well if we're talking about 2-3 clients a year. If we are talking about 2-3 a week, then yes. If it's just one a month, then having a clean and professional looking website with standard SEO optimiazations that details services may be sufficient. The website could be as little as 2 pages. Then, getting a link for this website listed in key places, may be more valuable. A quarterly newsletter may also be a good way to keep your company name in the back of future clients' minds.
Good questions, begreen. Ideally, I want to stabilize the business around 10-12 new development projects per year, with better than 50% hit ratio on jobs quoted, with means securing about 20 serious inquiries per year. Any more than that, I'll have to hire more engineers, which would make all of this much less fun.

The biggest challenge is that the products are highly customized, to the point where customers really have trouble searching for a product by function. So, it's more about getting to the point where your company name is among the first they recall for this product type, when a new need arises, and then being able to quickly develop and deliver the specific flavor they require. If I had to make a total WAG on ratio of site visitors to those who will find the product type(s) suitable for serious inquiry, I'd guess somewhere in the range 4:1 to 10:1.

Long way of saying, for every 100 site visits, I hope to get 10 - 40 inquiries, of which 5 - 20 may lead to orders. Each inquiry that leads to a quote costs me 20 - 100 hours, which usually represents about 20% of the total development time for a project, all lost if we fail to win the order. So of course quality of the lead is as important as quantity, to avoid costs associated with responding to low-probability inquiries.

I'm also making a push to bring on manufacturer's reps, chosen from those who already visit my existing or prospective customers, supporting adjacent product lines. I had begun this business thinking I could avoid that, and I've had some success with that, but only as a third-party supplier to the companies directly interfacing with the customer. There's more caught up in all of that, but I'll hold off derailing the thread with that tangent, for now.
 
The main thing will be to have your company name come up when someone is searching. This might happen online, but it could also be at a BBQ or cocktail party. SEO may have limited returns so defintely track results. Would it be possible to do some speaking engagements, start a newsletter, write some helpful guides, etc. in order to compliment efforts? Here are some random marketing ideas, some already discussed.

 
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The main thing will be to have your company name come up when someone is searching. This might happen online, but it could also be at a BBQ or cocktail party. SEO may have limited returns so defintely track results. Would it be possible to do some speaking engagements, start a newsletter, write some helpful guides, etc. in order to compliment efforts? Here are some random marketing ideas, some already discussed.

Yes, definitely. And I'm working those channels, including two of my industry's more important trade shows in June and August. Casual settings are more of a challenge, since my area of work is so specialized to such a small customer base, so the trade shows are about the best chance for a face-to-face.

But due to the duration and frequency of the types of projects requiring my products, I still believe many or most contacts that lead directly to a quote come through web search. Trade shows are so busy that people tend to forget what they've seen, and while giving away small items (notebooks, mouse pads, etc.) can help jog the memory when then unpack after a trip, the exposure doesn't often coincide in time with the need. Web search is on-demand, the customer sees your product right when there's an immediate need for it, not six months or a year before or after.

I have a lot more to say on that, in fact I just typed and deleted 7 paragraphs. But since I already have the other channels in the works, I really think web SEO is the area where I'm most lacking.
 
Can you get their names and set up a visit to them? It’s easy to forget phone calls, an in person visit is harder to forget.
 
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Can you get their names and set up a visit to them? It’s easy to forget phone calls, an in person visit is harder to forget.
Yes, but not without penalty. My biggest customers last year were in Taiwan and Germany, so there's a lot of lost design hours and dollars involved in making a trip to visit their facility. Trade shows are a good place to connect with sales or management types, but rarely the engineers, most trade shows end up being sales guys staring at each other... all sellers, with few buyers beyond the local region.

Not to derail from the OP, but one thing that I'm trying is mailing out some nice graph paper notepads and mouse pads, with my company logo and info on them, directly to the product engineers at target companies. LinkedIn is a huge help at getting into the company structure, past the usual purchasing manager firewall and directly to the engineers specifying product. I think notepads and mouse pads will have a higher likelihood of hanging around for many months on an engineer's desk, than the usual crap mugs and pens everyone sends out, and so they actually have a chance at being reminded of your existence when a new project creates need for my product types.

An engineer (my customer) will typically spend 15+ months on one of these projects, and usually have 2 or sometimes 3 running in parallel, so you can see the frequency of need or recollection is somewhere on the order of every 6 months. Then the probabilities of me being their best option for a solution (expertise, performance, timing, price, etc.) lowers my hit rate farther, depending on the shape and scale of their need. It creates a scenario where my primary goal is being one of the first 2 or 3 names that come to mind, when they need this product type, as you can't respond to the inquiry you just never receive.
 
Long way of saying, for every 100 site visits, I hope to get 10 - 40 inquiries, of which 5 - 20 may lead to orders. Each inquiry that leads to a quote costs me 20 - 100 hours, which usually represents about 20% of the total development time for a project, all lost if we fail to win the order. So of course quality of the lead is as important as quantity, to avoid costs associated with responding to low-probability inquiries.
in reality if you get 100 site hits you may get about 1-5 inquiries, out of 1000 website hits you may get 1-2 jobs out of it.. A website will help you but the things that re going to stick in peoples minds is quality of work and what they find when they research you.
Yes, but not without penalty. My biggest customers last year were in Taiwan and Germany, so there's a lot of lost design hours and dollars involved in making a trip to visit their facility. Trade shows are a good place to connect with sales or management types, but rarely the engineers, most trade shows end up being sales guys staring at each other... all sellers, with few buyers beyond the local region.

Not to derail from the OP, but one thing that I'm trying is mailing out some nice graph paper notepads and mouse pads, with my company logo and info on them, directly to the product engineers at target companies. LinkedIn is a huge help at getting into the company structure, past the usual purchasing manager firewall and directly to the engineers specifying product. I think notepads and mouse pads will have a higher likelihood of hanging around for many months on an engineer's desk, than the usual crap mugs and pens everyone sends out, and so they actually have a chance at being reminded of your existence when a new project creates need for my product types.

An engineer (my customer) will typically spend 15+ months on one of these projects, and usually have 2 or sometimes 3 running in parallel, so you can see the frequency of need or recollection is somewhere on the order of every 6 months. Then the probabilities of me being their best option for a solution (expertise, performance, timing, price, etc.) lowers my hit rate farther, depending on the shape and scale of their need. It creates a scenario where my primary goal is being one of the first 2 or 3 names that come to mind, when they need this product type, as you can't respond to the inquiry you just never receive.
Who uses mouse pads anymore.. Quite honestly if i get that type of stuff from a vendor it goes strait in the trash.. If its a hat or something useful ill give it to my staff or toss it out if it is a low quality product.. Gimmicks do not work reputation is what is going to build you.. If you want something they will remember get some good quality pens, hats, things like that and give them to your client when you see them in person..
 
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in reality if you get 100 site hits you may get about 1-5 inquiries, out of 1000 website hits you may get 1-2 jobs out of it.. A website will help you but the things that re going to stick in peoples minds is quality of work and what they find when they research you.
Different industry. No one is searching out my site without a specific need.

Who uses mouse pads anymore..
I do. My primary software vendor sends me a new one each year, which I use until the next one arrives. My prior employees used to all use the same.

Quite honestly if i get that type of stuff from a vendor it goes strait in the trash.. If its a hat or something useful ill give it to my staff or toss it out if it is a low quality product.. Gimmicks do not work reputation is what is going to build you.. If you want something they will remember get some good quality pens, hats, things like that and give them to your client when you see them in person..
Agreed. Most tchotchkes go straight in the trash, with mugs and pens right at the top of that list. But there have been a few that I've kept and used, graph paper note pads and the aforementioned mouse pads being two of the few that I've kept.

The direct mailing is no in place of direct contact, but in addition to. It's really just about having something hanging around as a reminder, for when that product engineer has a project creating a need, likely many months down the road from now. Connecting with rep's who actually do business with and have presence within an organization is also key, someone who is in there frequently enough representing complimentary lines, to land in front of the customer when the need arises.
 
I have kept high end pens that write nicely, but haven't used a mouse pad for years with an optical mouse. Would a nice digital micrometer be an appreciated tchotchke upgrade that is kept?
 
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I think there are a lot of personal preferences and habits here about goodies. (I have zero knowledge about website traffic etc.)

I keep pens and mugs. I use them. One very senior famous person I know always brought a full 2 lbs of pens and pencils to every synchrotron visit he went to. The diffusion constant of pens is inexplicably large...

But most engineers work on a screen these days, and micrometers are less used *by them*. Manufacturing workers do use them. (I was lucky to design (my own) vacuum systems, and then to do some of the shop work as well; micrometers are used by those who produce or have hands-on involvement in design cycles, not by those who just design.)
Mouse pads are used by those who use graphical (as in CAD or related) software. Mousing for hours a day is just better on a pad. (For me...) Or in situations where the desk gets dirty (see shops again). Mouse pad protects the mouse and can be replaced when it inevitably gets dirty.

Unfortunately, I think your product is not seen as it'll be buried in bigger assemblies. And it's a design only (?).
Being in a very specific niche-customer business, I'd focus for goodies on the following:
What "thing" would trigger word of mouth? You want those you have sold to to talk about you.
What person-to-person contact opportunities occur in your world?
What would be used/had in hand when one customer discusses a product (of your type) with another potential customer?

So something that is used when your customers interact with other potential customers of you. The mouse pad would not be that (if any social skills are left...).
A mug could be that (discussing something over coffee).
I'm of the white-board instruction (discussing with/educating PhD students on specifics happens there). If that is something that is common in your field, a dry erase marker holder or eraser with a marketing message on it might work.
A credit card holder thingy (RF shielded - seems related to your product?) to be put on the back of a phone case with a marketing message.

And with that I have reached the bottom of my inferior marketing brainstorming bin.
 
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Good questions, guys. I'll try to give some good answers.

I have kept high end pens that write nicely, but haven't used a mouse pad for years with an optical mouse.
My favorite pen is one given to me by Kyocera, when they were my supplier for ceramic packages, I like it so much I actually went and bought a second. It's a little expensive to be giving away en masse, and I've noticed I'm in the minority, for actually noticing or appreciating a really good pen.

I still use mouse pads, even with an optical mouse. I have a natural walnut desk, and so it protects the finish. But even when I was stuffed in a cubicle working on a Formica desk, I found that the desk got kinda nasty without a mouse pad to protect and throw away each year.

Would a nice digital micrometer be an appreciated tchotchke upgrade that is kept?
Yeah, that would be nice. Most of us keep a pair of digital calipers handy, for measuring parts we're modeling, mating to, or replicating. But also, most have a preference of brand and model (eg. Mitutoyo DigiCalp with thumb wheel, for me), and would probably just take a freebie set home for personal use, since these items are generally employer-provided at work.

There are $30 calipers that aren't total throw-aways, for home use, but most I know prefer the ones costing over $100/ea, when shopping on their employer's account.

I keep pens and mugs. I use them.
I'll admit I had a huge collection, at one time. I had to thin the heard awhile back, and found pretty much all the freebies were the ones I was tossing.

The diffusion constant of pens is inexplicably large...
lol... well put! Expensive Kyocera (OHTO) ceramic roller balls aside, most pens have the lifespan of a French fry, and receive even less attention.


What "thing" would trigger word of mouth? You want those you have sold to to talk about you.
That's a good question, and I don't have a great answer. It's ironic that a new customer learning you've been supplying their competitor can actually hurt my chance of building a relationship with the new customer, as there's always fear over protecting one's IP from their competitors, and most of these designs involve at least some collaborative sharing of information both ways. Of course NDA's are standard fare, but there are still many engineers who will automatically avoid a vendor who has any known relationship with their competitor.

Of course, there's probably an equal number where that knowledge has the reverse effect. For now, I've been only disclosing past (but not current) relationships with prospective customers, as some way of demonstrating history and experience in this field, without causing apprehension over IP disclosure.

What person-to-person contact opportunities occur in your world?
Mostly handled through manufacturer's rep's. Essentially, find rep's who already have a good relationship with your prospective customers, through selling product lines adjacent or complimentary to your own, and contract with them to also represent you at those customer sites or regions.

What would be used/had in hand when one customer discusses a product (of your type) with another potential customer?
Not sure I understand this question. There are basically three classes of products of the type I design:

1. Low power / commodity stuff, aimed at known volume applications. ($500 - $2000/ea) I don't compete here, as there are larger manufacturers who build hundreds at a time into stock, and can ship next day at prices that would make me bleed.

2. Medium power, commercial off the shelf (COTS) stuff, typically orders of 1 - 100 pieces. ($2000 - $10,000/ea) Basically, you have a design, but only build to forecast or order. Designs are driven by the requirements of one or a few customers, then advertised on your site for pickings from additional customers operating in the same space. This is the area where I am to grow the business most, as I can be competitive here, and the repeat orders are the only effective way to amortize my design time at expected product pricing.

3. Very high power custom. ($10,000 - $250,000/ea) This is where 90% of my work has been over the last 2 years, stuff that's just so over the top outside what anyone else offers as a COTS product, that all my competition is either bidding as a custom job (like me) or no-quoting the thing. Some of the jobs I've quoted here have been so stupid expensive that I was sure I'd never get the order... and then I do. These jobs put food on the table, and then some, but the risk and stress is enormous and there's no easy money from building a second or third order of the same. Just imagine irreversibly screwing up a job where the material cost is $100k, or learning that the product cannot meet customer spec after completion.

I am happy doing the very high power custom stuff as a reasonable fraction of the business for now, and am insured for such work, but aim to taper that down to zero over the next 10-15 years. It's extremely risky, in terms of cost / profit ratio, and also takes design hours away from the medium power COTS development. I really want to build up the medium power business, but of course it relies on very good market research to predict needs, and also risk that things developed (even stocked) are actually going to move.

A credit card holder thingy (RF shielded - seems related to your product?) to be put on the back of a phone case with a marketing message.
Yep, you're in the right field, but think full lead suit at my power levels! I had one customer cook one of his coworkers from 250 meters away, and I suspect he didn't care much about the credit cards melting in his pocket, at the time. ;lol

My last company actually gave away pop sockets and rubber grippy pads to go onto the back of cell phone cases, 10 years ago. Not sure if that stuff is still popular.

I'm getting the message that mouse pads have fallen out with most people, with the caveat that engineers are not "most people", but maybe it's time to scratch that one off the list and look at other options. One I have from my prior employer is neoprene drink coasters. identical construction to old-skool mouse pads, but two of these drink coasters sit on my desk at all times. Usually ice water on one, while the other alternates between coffee and cocktail, AM to PM. Stupid little things, but I've probably had them more than 6 years now.
 
The one you did not understand: I was thinking that if two customers (one past/current, one potential) talk to each other, what are the circumstances there. What's in their hand. That's the item to give away. What do you have on you (visibly) when you talk to reps or other customers?

The rep. as intermediate vector muddies things, as if I were a rep. I would avoid handling marketing material from someone else's business.

Customer IP nervousness is a problem too.

If repeat customers for (tweaked) existing designs of medium mass/quantity stuff is where you want to go, then the goodies don't matter much I think; indeed it'll be a website that's needed. You do need to have a threshold number of product flowing out, not just for $$, but below a certain threshold, you're not visible enough to have that visibility create sufficient demand.

Word of mouth works for truly custom stuff, or for "cheap and fast" appeal. Neither is where you want to be as a single person company.

At least, that's my layman's view. Good luck.

My dad warmed himself near (airforce) radars in the 60s.. I'm lucky I was able to get born after all that :p
 
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The best swag type thing I ever picked up was a fly swatter. It’s one of those things everyone needs, but nobody ever buys, lol.
 
Maybe a USB card would be good swag for an engineering trade show. They can do personalized ones that look like credit cards and bracelets.
 
The best swag type thing I ever picked up was a fly swatter. It’s one of those things everyone needs, but nobody ever buys, lol.
Back scratchers are that way too.
 
The first question I would ask is what are your competitors doing? What methods do they have to find, attract and secure clients.

From my experience niche businesses perform substantially better as they scale up in size, as the company becomes large enough that is has both name recognition, and the talent pool to accomplish almost any task thrown in its direction. Which is obviously not the business model you are trying to achieve.

The company I work for has a website and Facebook page. And I know for a fact that both of those have resulted in 0 work, although the owner continues to spend money on improving the website every year. The Facebook page works for helping to find employees, but that's about it.

I do like notepads/graph paper and do keep those from vendors. Some of our vendors have very well put together reference documents, often put together into a quick reference style book that I use often. And some have top-notch brochures that I'll keep as well.

The problem with SEO is that it can be too broad, and can send you a large volume of customers that are not your target market, wasting a huge amount of time on your end decipher actual requests from garbage ones.
 
The best swag type thing I ever picked up was a fly swatter. It’s one of those things everyone needs, but nobody ever buys, lol.
Best SWAG I ever received was from Agilent (formerly Hewlett-Packard, but now Keysight), and it was a Victorinox Swiss Army knife with a 4 GB (huge, at the time!) USB stick as one of the "tools" in the knife. It also had a LED light and a pen, really everything you could ever find handy for working with lab equipment where usually the easiest way to move data was by USB thumb drive.

[Hearth.com] Hiring web development / SEO consultant / company

Of course, they screwed up and imprinted their logo with an ink that rubbed off in the first few weeks, so most of their customers probably forgot where they got the thing. ;lol

The fly swatter is actually an excellent idea, but sends a weird message, no?

Any tool or part that fixes a known problem with a competitors design can also make great SWAG. I've seen that in other markets, and it's always memorable. But unfortunately I'm operating in an incredibly-high SKU / low volume space, where I'm never competing against the same competitor part twice.

If repeat customers for (tweaked) existing designs of medium mass/quantity stuff is where you want to go, then the goodies don't matter much I think; indeed it'll be a website that's needed.
Yep... as stated! Everyone here got distracted with the tchotchkes, which is really all they are. In terms of budget and time invested, they're not a big deal, just one more useful tool to try and keep your company name in front of a customer who's need for your product type may be only a few times per year, or less. The web site is key, ranking high in search results for a given product type is key. Having a notebook, pen, or mousepad in front of the customer may help remind them at the time to include your name in the search, or even better just go straight to your site, but that's all it is.
 
Different industry. No one is searching out my site without a specific need.


I do. My primary software vendor sends me a new one each year, which I use until the next one arrives. My prior employees used to all use the same.


Agreed. Most tchotchkes go straight in the trash, with mugs and pens right at the top of that list. But there have been a few that I've kept and used, graph paper note pads and the aforementioned mouse pads being two of the few that I've kept.

The direct mailing is no in place of direct contact, but in addition to. It's really just about having something hanging around as a reminder, for when that product engineer has a project creating a need, likely many months down the road from now. Connecting with rep's who actually do business with and have presence within an organization is also key, someone who is in there frequently enough representing complimentary lines, to land in front of the customer when the need arises.
I guess my experience with mouse pads is different.. Everyone i deal with and know not a single person uses a mouse pad with todays mouse their is no need, everyone that i know that uses cad do not use as well between their pen and laser mouse. The give away market is a hard one and cheap give aways are just that cheap and hit the garbage..

Does not matter if you have a specific need, any web development that is telling you the numbers you posted are just out for your money.. I used to do web design and it is alot of work to make those numbers a reality, i gave it up since i live out in the middle of nowhere and always liked to see customers in person a few times compared to video chat as you can learn alot more in person. Just got to be to much traveling and got tired of sitting in front of a computer most of my life..LOL