Greenwood 100 Issues

[bluecap24]

First off let me introduce my self. I live in Northern Indiana and have been "appointed" to take care of my fathers boiler system since I live next door. I am a mechanical engineer so I can understand how it works to a point, but I am by no means a hydronic whiz.

My brother and I installed it with the help of Greenwood as at the time we were a dealer for them. The system is heating a 1500 sqft farm house, DHW, and a garage. It has an open loop on the boiler and a closed loop on the house and garage side. We are using a plate hx. We obviously didn't have the return water protection and this thing condensed so much that it rust completely through the side panels.

Well after talking with there stellar customer service they sent out new side panel. Which got damaged in shipping. After they waited 2 weeks before they shipped them. So they sent another set, but not until 4 days later and I had to personally bash this Dave Barber guy. Naturally this set was smashed too even worse than the first. So I call and after yelling and complaining get a guy by the name of Jay. He seems to be the only one that can do anything there and actually answers his phone. Kudos for Jay. He sends out another set but of course it is Friday so they arrive Monday, this time in perfect shape. Pheww what a mess.

So I remove all the insulation and such to replace these monsters and find the clogged HX tubes. What a mess. Also notice that the flex tubes that connect the firebox to the damper are coming undone. So I am trying once again to get a hold of someone that can help me.

My main concern is first what are you guys doing about protecting the returning temps. I got three difernet diagrams from greenwood on how to do this. The one they finally recommend is a shunt pump, aquastat and check valve. I called to get a number for an engineer to discuss something on one of the diagrams they sent and wouldn't you know the guy is in Rhode Island! Seems to me that it would be kinda hard to do much for the company when you are completely on the opposite side of the country! He says that the pump is the only way to do it.

I also have concerns cause this thing will not keep up when it gets cold out. It will run and run and the life just gets sucked out of it. I asked about adding a storage tank to help that "7" gallons of water that is circulating in the boiler handle the load and he tells me that I could add 1000 gallons and it wouldn't make a difference. So I am confused. If I can store heat in a tank for the peak loads how can this not help?

I know that it is an old farm house that is going to use some heat, but my goodness unless it is 40 degrees out we can't heat the house and the garage to even 60 degrees.

Will the shunt pump help the unit keep up or will it just starve the house for heat to maintain the boiler temp?

I know that I am just dumping out a bunch of questions here, but I really could use some help.

I attached a pic of what the right side panel looked like when we took it off! BTW this unit is only 2 years old.

Thanks in advance Jim

 

[stee6043]

It sounds like the system they are recommending to maintain return temp is more complicated and expensive than I would use. A lot (if not most?) of the folks on this site use Danfoss or Termovar loading valves. These are simple three way valves piped between your input and output to maintain input temps. I have a Danfoss three way and the plumbing is quite easy. It shouldn't starve your system of heat once the load is up to temp. Have you been measuring any input/output temps on your system?

 

[bluecap24]

Where would I get one of these valves and roughly how much do they cost. I believe that is in one of the diagrams but they also show two oventrop balancing valves that are quite expensive from my research. I would like to keep this simple as possible so that my dad can tend it during the day and not have to worry about it.

I have a temp guage on the return water of the house loop and it always was running way low. Like 120 or below even when the stove gage shows 180.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

I hope I don't have to take my side panels off before late-spring. If I can get solar up and running, that will give me summer and early fall to make some mods to my GW100.

Dave barber is a loser when it comes to customer service. I doubt he knows how to spell it even.

Hopefully Eric, NoFo, or some of the Pro-types here will chime in on cold return temps leading to condensation and failure . . .but . . .

I have no return temp protection. I always thought condensation would be an issue on STEEL, not refractory material. Why did your side panel rust through? The water doesn't touch it and there is insultation between the refractory material and the side covers.

Tell us more about not getting enough heat.
What size HX?

If your inside unit is water, did the HX get hooked up so the flows go in oposite directions?

Have you measured the temps going in/coming out of the HX?

Radiant or baseboard?

This garage you speak of . . . pex in concrete?

 

[NNYorker]

I don't know why all these manufacturers refuse to use stainless for the side panels--well I know it would cost more$$$. I priced stainless for my former heap and it would have cost me $225 per sheet/18Ga. to reskin(2 sheets).

I had no return temp. protection other than a temp. gauge on the return line just before the boiler--mine started showing signs of rusts after three months of use.

These units will pump out a lot of heat,probably way more than your heat load will call for. How green is your wood? Exclusively burning green wood was not a friend of these boilers when mine was up and running.

Be patient, you'll get more help here.

 

[2.beans]

it sound like you dont have enough draft if the boiler is keeping up. my father inlaws boiler had build up on his heat exchanger and his return temps are usually around 160*. doesnt seem like the fire is getting hot enough to burn off the moister and creosote. have you measured the draft? how tall is the chimney and what size is it?

 

[Dino57]

One manufacture has used stainless steel to avoid this rust out problem.Check out there site.
(broken link removed)

 

[Nofossil]

I don't know anything about Greenwood specifically. I'll agree with the comment on burning exclusively green wood - can cause problems with any boiler. Seems like there are two issues: heat output and input protection.

You may want to get yourself an infrared thermometer for troubleshooting. Just put a piece of masking tape on any pipe where you want to measure the temp, point the thing at it, and pull the trigger.

I'd try making sure that it's clean - all HX tubes, smoke passages, whatever. Then get yourself some really dry wood - cut up a pallet or something. Build a fire starting with really dry wood, then a mixture of really dry and the stuff you've been using. See how it burns, and measure temperatures into and out of the boiler and both sides of the heat exchanger.

That panel rust looks like it got moisture inside the jacket, either from a leak or from temperature cycling in a humid environment. Where is this installed?

 

[NNYorker]

One manufacture has used stainless steel to avoid this rust out problem.Check out there site.
(broken link removed)

I forgot about the Greenhorizon --I do keep in contact with Mark at SJV Trailer --he is the ONLY one who would help me with my Adobe. Nice,professional,and SO MUCH MORE informative than the (broken link removed) site--go there for a laugh......

Looks like you get it all in one package, none of you have to buy this you have to buy that..... Looks like a nice setup, how do you like it?

 

[Dino57]

Have not used it yet.It has not been cold enough yet.I use my wood stove to keep the chill out of the house.Come the cold weather we will see.You are right about the features just hook up 2 pipes and you could be ready to go.

 

[bluecap24]

Hey guys thanks for the input. The boiler was in a semi insulated shed next to the house. We have now built a new insulated building with wood storage for it that we are working on now. Basically like a new well insulated garage. Temp should remain fairly constant in there. The house is using a water to air hx in the gas furnace plenum and the garage is a water to air hanging unit. The plate heat exchanger on the boiler is a LB31-20. The wood at times hasn't been the most seasoned and I know that is some of the problem, but the recovery time seems to be really long. I am adding a shunt pump to it tonight since I can add that without sourcing anything new parts. I am sick of being greenwoods guinea pig. I have a temp gun but didn't use the tape like you said. The return water was low temp. I also have a couple of well type temp gauges that i am going to plumb in also.

The chimney had good draft most of the time, but it was a smoke pipe chimney. We put up with the new building a 13' tall masonary chimney and are putting in a draft inducer to compensate if needed and to pull the smoke out while loading.

Got the new side panels put on last night and all buttoned back up ready to plumb.

I guess we really need to get it all fired back up in the new building and start fresh.

Still curious about the extra water storage tank idea. Greenwood says it won't help and i read on here that it does help. About as large as I could go is about 40-60 gallons. If I do that should it be on the open loop side of the boiler or on the closed loop side on the house.

Thanks again.