Getting propane service... questions about propane wall/space heaters

[djlew]

A little insight into my situation here... I live in an area with no natural gas service and the only thing we have is electric. Oil is an option, but a lot of people have propane as well. Currently, I have an electric heat pump which anybody who knows about these things can tell that under a certain outdoor temperature, they are borderline useless and rely on extremely expensive heat strips that, in my case, constantly run and make my electric bill almost into the 1000 dollar range (no joke). I am trying to move away from electric as the utility company is raising rates 20% and even more in some cases.

For this reason, I got my Jotul 602 to heat up the main living space and a lot of that heat goes up into the second floor rooms as well. No issues there. A bit small but it does the job. My issue is with the 450-500 sq ft primary bedroom addition that is down a hallway and doesn't get much of the heat from the wood stove. I've considered other electric heating options for that room, like baseboard and stuff, but again my primary goal is to bring down these winter electric bills.

That lead me to getting with a company that deals with oil, propane, and other HVAC stuff. They recommend a small 50 gallon tank to run a propane space heater for the room on those colder days/nights where the heat pump can't keep up. This sounded really good and exactly what I was looking for. Then I started doing some digging and basically ended up getting more confused on how safe these heaters really are.

I saw two different types - vented and ventless. I understand the concepts of course, but I really want to make sure I am getting the proper heater for what I need. Ventless (a 10,000 BTU unit was recommended for me, which seemed a bit small but I digress) seems a bit dangerous to me for obvious reasons. It would be nice to run something while I sleep, but I have to imagine anything propane that will not be an option. Vented seems like a safer choice, similar to what I think a wood stove would be like, and I have a full burn year of experience now with that bad boy. The issue is also a seemingly limited options of vented units for what I would need (something I think in the 10000-20000 BTU range). There are a ton of ventless options, some with fan add-ons that claim to increase the square footage of what the thing can heat.

My main question here is does anybody have any experience with these types of heaters in a bedroom? Vented or ventless? How do you use them, only when it's super cold as a supplement and then turn it off at night? CO detectors are a must, of course, either way. I saw a thread that mentioned an Ashley Hearth 11k BTU vented wall heater, which came up on my radar, but had mixed reviews. The good ole' Dyna Glo and Mr. Heater brands have great reviews, but concern me being ventless.

I have the company I am working with also looking into some things for me, but I always try to get real life experiences from the forum instead of from a sales department of a company. Thank you all as usual for any insight you might be able to give.

 

[stoveliker]

I would never use a ventless heater like that. They are not ventless, they exhaust into your living space and lungs.

Have you tried a fan on the floor, running as low as possible blowing colder air from the bedroom to the stove room ? That is the most efficient way to get heat from the stove to the bedroom.

Also, your heat pump is likely of the wrong (or old,) type.
Mine can heat my home when it's<10 F outside. No heating strips.

I would put a cold-weather heat pump mini split in the bedroom. That won't cost you an arm and leg in install and in electric bill

 

[djlew]

I would never use a ventless heater like that. They are not ventless, they exhaust into your living space and lungs.

Have you tried a fan on the floor, running as low as possible blowing colder air from the bedroom to the stove room ? That is the most efficient way to get heat from the stove to the bedroom.

Also, your heat pump is likely of the wrong (or old,) type.
Mine can heat my home when it's<10 F outside. No heating strips.

I would put a cold-weather heat pump mini split in the bedroom. That won't cost you an arm and leg in install and in electric bill

Thank you for the quick reply. I have tried the fan method. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference in my case. It's a pretty narrow hallway to the bedroom. I've looked into mini splits. I was under the impression that they worked similarly in terms of larger heat pumps and really have a rough time in sub 35 degree weather. I didn't realize there were specific ones to work better in colder weather. That's an option for sure. My issue is heat, the heat pump works great for AC.

My heat pump is a York, installed about 5-6 years ago, 2018 I think. Might be undersized, I'd have to double check the tons. Sub 35 degrees it freezes up, goes into a thaw cycle (air handler still runs, cold air is blowing at this point), rinse and repeat because all the heat pumped in is lost during the thaw cycle.

 

[stoveliker]

Fan: okay. Bummer.

Heat Pumps in Extreme Cold Climates | Mitsubishi Electric HVAC US

_While variable-capacity HVAC technology was introduced to the U.S. over 30 years ago and is very common abroad, many consumers in the U.S. are still getting familiar with heat pump technology. Join us as we debunk some of the most common “myths” about these systems!_ **Myth: Heat Pumps Are...

www.mitsubishicomfort.com

They claim 100% of rated capacity at 5 F, and will still heat (at lower capacity and higher electric cost per kWh of heat provided) down to -13 F.

That is likely far more than you'd even need, so you should be able to get a minisplit that's cheaper and does the job.

I had a ducted heat pump back in TN. Below 40 F it ran strips until I pulled those out and put a natural gas burner in (we had that in the road already). But still, those heat pumps konk out at 40 F.
The minisplit I have here on Long Island works great, and a much, much lower kWh usage (i.e. higher coefficient of performance, which is the "kWh heat delivered per kWh electricity used" - this CoP will vary with temperature, getting lower with lower outside temps, but current technology allows good heating at low temps.)

Minisplits are far more efficient than conventional heat pumps, also at 45 F where conventional heat pumps work well.

I'd say that a minisplit suitable for your climate will be by far the best solution for a *single room* top-up heating need. No need for additional utility (and fixed cost of that), and good efficiency and safety.

Before you make a decision, get quotes on minsplits, ask them about the lowest temps where you still have a CoP of 2 or larger (i.e. 2 kWh of heat delivered for 1 kWh electricity used), and compare with temps you see in winter.

 

[djlew]

Fan: okay. Bummer.

Heat Pumps in Extreme Cold Climates | Mitsubishi Electric HVAC US

_While variable-capacity HVAC technology was introduced to the U.S. over 30 years ago and is very common abroad, many consumers in the U.S. are still getting familiar with heat pump technology. Join us as we debunk some of the most common “myths” about these systems!_ **Myth: Heat Pumps Are...

www.mitsubishicomfort.com

They claim 100% of rated capacity at 5 F, and will still heat (at lower capacity and higher electric cost per kWh of heat provided) down to -13 F.

That is likely far more than you'd even need, so you should be able to get a minisplit that's cheaper and does the job.

I had a ducted heat pump back in TN. Below 40 F it ran strips until I pulled those out and put a natural gas burner in (we had that in the road already). But still, those heat pumps konk out at 40 F.
The minisplit I have here on Long Island works great, and a much, much lower kWh usage (i.e. higher coefficient of performance, which is the "kWh heat delivered per kWh electricity used" - this CoP will vary with temperature, getting lower with lower outside temps, but current technology allows good heating at low temps.)

Minisplits are far more efficient than conventional heat pumps, also at 45 F where conventional heat pumps work well.

I'd say that a minisplit suitable for your climate will be by far the best solution for a *single room* top-up heating need. No need for additional utility (and fixed cost of that), and good efficiency and safety.

Before you make a decision, get quotes on minsplits, ask them about the lowest temps where you still have a CoP of 2 or larger (i.e. 2 kWh of heat delivered for 1 kWh electricity used), and compare with temps you see in winter.

So the minute you mentioned this, I went to the website of the contractor I am (or was, depending) using for the propane. They do HVAC stuff too, and install Daikin mini split systems. I see their units work at ~100% efficiency at 5 degrees F and some of their units still operate down to -13F. Matches what you are saying too. I asked them for a quote and they were happy to do so. I am waiting on that. Not too concerned about the electricity usage with a mini split. I don't even mind paying a bit more, just to be comfortable. Currently, I pay a lot, and am NOT comfortable!

So I'll see what their quote comes back with. With fuel, installation, and the heater itself my price of entry for the propane was ~$500. Anticipating at least 1 extra fill up for the season, would be a year 1 cost of about $700 for the propane. No lease fee if I meet the fill up requirements. That price of entry was attractive to get the wife on board. I know the mini splits themselves can range from $1000-5000 for some multi zone systems. This would be a single zone, of course, but might be a tougher sell for the wife. Safety beats everything though, so I'm excited to see what the company says.

 

[stoveliker]

Entry cost of propane is indeed low, and will be quite lower than the minisplit.
Operating costs will be different. I'm also not sure if you'd meet the fill up requirements, if you are only heating one room.
There are threads here and elsewhere with posts that quantitatively compare fuel costs for different heating systems. That pays of more when you're talking about whole home rather than topping up a room, I'd say.

In any case, this is your (joint) choosing to do. It's not only finances that matter..
E.g. also aesthetics (some strongly dislike the minisplit head inside).
I love my minisplits, but some dislike heat pumps, minisplits in the home, etc.

If you go propane, I would strongly argue to get a vented system, not ventless.
It's good to at least make a decision being fully informed.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

10,000 btu/hr is just under half of what my house requires at -6F.


Have you looked into air sealing and insulation? It’s not as exciting as installing a new heating season, but the return is hard to beat!

 

[Highbeam]

Definitely do not install a "ventless gas heater. It's like having a chimneyless woodstove puking that pollution, stink, and water vapor into your house to cause mold, stink, and with poisonous gasses maybe worse.