Firewood shrinkage
- Thread starter wahoowad
- Start date
-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil. -
Super Cedar firestarters 30% discount Use code Hearth2024 Click here
- Status
Only dimension I've ever seen wood "shrink" in is weight as it loses moisture content. Maybe twist a slight bit, but not actually change dimensions.
I am sorry I dont have any answers for you, but your question remined me of a question that ties into your question.
I have been talking with various wood sellers as I need to purchase some since husbands back has put him out of the chopping, spliting, stacking business. A cord of wood is selling for $200 a cord here. The seller I am talking with says he measures his cord before it is split and cured.He and I agree on a cord being 4x4x8. When he splits and stacks it and it sits around it goes through what he calls compression and that reduces it by 15-20%.
Is this the coorrect way to measure a cord.....before its split and cured? I am in NM and NM has its own rules about everything which is contrary to the way things are done in the rest of the US.
I have been talking with various wood sellers as I need to purchase some since husbands back has put him out of the chopping, spliting, stacking business. A cord of wood is selling for $200 a cord here. The seller I am talking with says he measures his cord before it is split and cured.He and I agree on a cord being 4x4x8. When he splits and stacks it and it sits around it goes through what he calls compression and that reduces it by 15-20%.
Is this the coorrect way to measure a cord.....before its split and cured? I am in NM and NM has its own rules about everything which is contrary to the way things are done in the rest of the US.
Wood shrinks from 2 to 8 percent in length dependong on species from green to dry(15% moisture). That is negligible in a 16 inch piece.
wahoowad said:
I'd call the State Consumer Affairs. I seriously doubt that he can measure it blotted green and let it shrink by 20% and sell it as a full cord. Seems like the seller is clouding the truth. I think the law is stacked cord at time of purchase. Make him an offer, get a full cord measured at the time of purchase, or you'll let CA know his new math calculations.
dolores said:
Here is a diagram showing how you can expect wood to shrink and move. A 16" length will stay the same length.
(broken link removed)
(broken link removed)
I stack my wood in a 3 sided shed separated into 2 stacking areas. Typically I use about one stacking area per year, so I always am using wood that was seasoned for at least one year.
I always stack all the way up to the rafters, and I've noticed that after a year, the stacks have space above them that was not there when I stacked them.
The worst was when I got a load of soaking wet sycamore. That stack must have had a foot of extra space above it (approx 7 ft high stack) when I got around to burning it.
I always stack all the way up to the rafters, and I've noticed that after a year, the stacks have space above them that was not there when I stacked them.
The worst was when I got a load of soaking wet sycamore. That stack must have had a foot of extra space above it (approx 7 ft high stack) when I got around to burning it.
I have seen figures of less than 1% along the length, 2-8% across the grain and across the rings, 5-15% across the grain and parallel to the rings.
If you work that out and say an average of 8% across and parallel to the rings, a woodpile that starts out 6 feet tall may end up 6" shorter or more!
There have been a couple of times I have stacked wood and thought someone had taken some wood because at the end of the summer it sure looked shorter. This was probably the reason. Couple the wood shrinkage with the pile settling into the ground a little and maybe some of the bark degrading and letting the logs fit closer together and you can easily loose 6, 8, 10 inches or more on a tall stack.
Corey
If you work that out and say an average of 8% across and parallel to the rings, a woodpile that starts out 6 feet tall may end up 6" shorter or more!
There have been a couple of times I have stacked wood and thought someone had taken some wood because at the end of the summer it sure looked shorter. This was probably the reason. Couple the wood shrinkage with the pile settling into the ground a little and maybe some of the bark degrading and letting the logs fit closer together and you can easily loose 6, 8, 10 inches or more on a tall stack.
Corey
I remember what my grandfather told me many years ago. He said he would cut the firewood 2 foot long and season over the summer or untill it shrunk to 12" long, so it could fit in the kitchen range. Many many many years later, I found out that was un-true. Oh Well ! Just my 2 cents worth.
Why do we think firewood sellers charge 50.00 plus to stack what they deliver? Until it is stacked it really cannot be measured. Dealing with the Grandson of the man who delivered firewood to your Grandmother is Always the best ........
dolores said:
Since 1997 N.M. Weights and Measures Law has defined a cord of wood and regulates its sale just like a lot of other states. It is a 128 cubic feet of wood. Now, about the unsplit, unseasoned thing. Personally I would prefer that a cord I buy be measured before it is split. There is a heck of a lot less air space in a 4X4X8 stack of rounds than in the same dimension split and stacked.
Contact the New Mexico Department of Agriculture for details but they say that for a transaction to be legitimate that the cord should measure 128 cubic feet at the time of delivery.
From almost having build a log cabin home, my understanding is that wood shrinks in width, much more appreciably than length, as it drys. This explains why, after a year or so, log cabin owners need to add another log or so to replace the lost vertical in their home, why cabinetry and flooring in a log home requires special consideration, etc.
Any log home owners out there burning with information?
Aye,
Marty
Any log home owners out there burning with information?
Aye,
Marty
dolores said:
I hate answering these type of questions. It usually ends up in a long, no ending debate. But anyway, here goes. If you are in a town or state where the current regulations are ( Firewood is sold by the "stacked" cord measurement). Then it doesn't matter where the "stacked" measurement is taken from, as long as the dealer explains to the buyer at what point of the processing, the "stacked" cord measurement is taken from. This typical dealerthat you mentioned, is offering to you a "stacked" cord measurement of rounds that is cut to lenght that is stacked in a configuration that eguals to 128 cu ft. Then, he will split the "stacked" cord of rounds to your specification (e.g. fine split - chunky split) and delivery it to you for X amount of dollars. This method or proceedure does not mean, that you will recieve a "stacked" cord of finish product of firewood. Note; If you are inquiring a "stacked" cord of finish product of firewood, you will have to ask around where a typical firewood dealer will measure the "stack" cord after processing or at the finish stage. Remember, That does not mean that it will re-stack again to a cord either. Its my understanding, that the first stacked measurement is the legal measurement. To my knowledge, there is no regulation and or laws where firewood has to re-stack again to a cord, once it been previously stacked. In closing, The dealer you mentioned, is correct and legal in his method of a "stacked cord measurement" of rounds.
Firewoodguy.com said:
Not in New Mexico. From the New Mexico Department of Agriculture website:
"Upon delivery, the buyer should have the wood stacked and measured while the seller is present. If the wood measures at 128 cubic feet, the sale is considered a legitimate transaction."
"Do women know about shrinkage?"
"What do you mean, like firewood?"
"No..."
"Like when a man goes swimming... Afterwards..."
"It shrinks?"
"Like a frightened turtle."
"Why does it shrink?"
"It just does."
"I don't know how you guys walk around with those things."
-- Mike
PS - How did this thread go on for so long without a Seinfeld quote??? You guys are letting me down.
"What do you mean, like firewood?"
"No..."
"Like when a man goes swimming... Afterwards..."
"It shrinks?"
"Like a frightened turtle."
"Why does it shrink?"
"It just does."
"I don't know how you guys walk around with those things."
-- Mike
PS - How did this thread go on for so long without a Seinfeld quote??? You guys are letting me down.
Before the dudes lapse into jackass humor about shrinkage just let me say.........
Like I said NM does things differently. No one inforces laws here. We have lots of drunk driving laws but no really pay's much attention. Were not really apart of the US
But thanks to everyone. From your answers and some reasearch I did on the net, I think I get the picture. Its the chasing of the illusive cord of wood..........it never ends.
Like I said NM does things differently. No one inforces laws here. We have lots of drunk driving laws but no really pay's much attention. Were not really apart of the US
But thanks to everyone. From your answers and some reasearch I did on the net, I think I get the picture. Its the chasing of the illusive cord of wood..........it never ends.
dolores said:
Pffffft..... as usual, beat ya to it by at least an hour... never underestimate us, especially in important matters such as these.
-- Mike
PS - I have no doubt in my mind that a cord should be measured upon delivery, no matter where in the universe you reside. Its like going to the fish market and ordering a pound of Tuna, only to be given 1/2 a pound, and the excuse that "well, 1/2 the Tuna is entrails, and in the normal course of production, that half of the fish goes into the trash, so this is what's left, have a good day and enjoy your "pound" of fish ma'am."
BrotherBart said:
You are correct in that issue. But, let me re-phrase it some what. Firewood can be sold in any phase by using the cord "stacked"measurement. In either in log length or in 4' rounds or rounds cut to length and or the in the finish product (cut and split) stage. It all depends on how the dealer is selling and offering where the "stacked cord measurement" is derived at. In this incident, The dealer's measurement is at the " rounds cut to length" . Of course, the buyer wants to purchase a 'Stacked " cord measurement of processed (cut and split) firewood. According to this dealer, the stacked cord measurement of processed firewood, that this buyer wants to purchase, is un-available, but this dealer does have available a "stacked " cord of rounds cut to length which he will split for the consumer and deliver it. So, it really all depends on how the consumer orders firewood and or in what phase the dealers "cord" measurement is taken from. Furthermore, You can verify this with any Dept of Agri and they will explain it to you, the same as I have explained it. Now, if a consumer is requesting and is paying for a "stacked" cord of processed firewood (cut and split) and the firewood dealer is offering a "stacked" cord of processed (cut and split) firewood to the consumer's, You are correct and the regulation is correct, that " upon delivery, the buyer should have the wood stacked and measure while the seller is present.........." Take in consideration, If the firewood is stacked for measurement in the delivery truck upon arriving at the customers home, that is considered as a legitimate sale/ transaction too. There is no need to re-stack it again for measurement. I think this typical dealer was legal and honest in explaining to the consumer that the "stacked" measurement is commenced from "rounds cut to length".
If I buy a full cord of green wood, I would expect it to be within 5 to 10% of a full cord. Also same applies to seasoned wood within 5 to 10%. Anything out of those measurements I would expect for the dealerto give a little more wood. A full cord is 128 cf of wood. So being that if it's being advertised that, thats what I want it to be. Around here a rick or face cord is a common seller. The thing here is people have it stacked tightly and its 16"x 4' high x 8' long. You load it yourself. This way you know you are not being shorted. Also they tend to throw in a little extra to make sure things are kosher. Very honest people. You will see these face cords on the edge of the road around here. It varies from 40 to 55 a face cord, or 120 to 165 a full cord.
A cord is a cord is a cord ......................
When wood is delivered it should be 1 full cord , period.
All the other minus 20% because of something or the other is BS , a full cord should not change that much if at all from time of loading to time of delivery.
When wood is delivered it should be 1 full cord , period.
All the other minus 20% because of something or the other is BS , a full cord should not change that much if at all from time of loading to time of delivery.
Roospike said:
Yup. I wonder how much that wood peddler would like it if ya handed him inflation adjusted payment. "But that $194 was worth two hundred when you quoted me a price a few months ago. It shrunk just like that wood did".
laynes69 said:
Well, not exactly...a full cord is a 128cf >stack< of wood. But, it is not solid wood. Air space is generally considered to eat up 30-35% of the space leaving about 85cf of solid wood.
Another lesser issue is that with the wood shrinkage we are talking about, a 4 x 4 x 8 pile could shrink to 4 x 3 1/2 x 7 1/4 or less...so there is a 20% change in volume right there.
Wood is definitely a tough critter to have an accurate measure of. In an ideal world, you could buy it by the pound and measure the moisture content...much the way grain is bought/sold. At least then, you would have a good idea of how many BTU's you just bought.
Corey
mtarbert said:
I gather from the posted messages, that the "Face cord" is used in the regions where they "do things differently" and so are the defininition's of a face cord are differ depending on who you talk to. My 2 cents worth
- Status
