Falling creosote?

[Hogwildz]

OK so after a couple days of insert not being used, I cleaned the glass, scooped some ash out & relit her up.
As she starts getting up in temp, I hear small things falling down the liner, like a shower of chips.
I guess its creosote, go on the roof and sure is, theres lil flakes flying of the cap & cap screen. A bunch of lil chips on the roof, top of chimney plate etc.
I think for a moment and am thinking the heat caused the s.s. to expand making the creosote flake & fall off, which I can see on parts of the cap.
Is this normal/typical? Sound about right?

On another note, I readjusted the door and its adjusted all the way it can. Of course when the stove got up in temp, then it was too tight LOL. So I backed her off some. The roller was making contact with the stove itself. I'll keep an eye on it. I may end up replacing the rope gasket if it becomes a problem again. I am a lil pissed that I this is a problem for a new insert, and am NOT paying for a new gasket or door if thats what it comes down to, after just a month after purchase.

 

[Mike Wilson]

I think for a moment and am thinking the heat caused the s.s. to expand making the creosote flake & fall off, which I can see on parts of the cap.
Is this normal/typical? Sound about right?

I had it happen when I first had my liner installed, it would pop and expand a little, and some creosote from the top 1-2' or so would fall, little flakes. It stopped doing that this year... which means either its reached a nice little equilibrium, or there's just no creosote, or there's so much creosote that its all bonded together into a nice flexible fuel supply... :grrr: ... I'm hoping its one of the first two, as I didn't see any significant creosote last time I checked.

-- Mike

 

[Hogwildz]

I'm also guessing that the stuff that fell on top of the baffle will burn away?

 

[Mike Wilson]

That's what I figured... the few times I noticed it I determined that it wasn't worth worrying about and just fired up the stove. I think most of the times it happens when the stove is firing anyways... so what 'cha gonna do?!!??!! Some people have reported hearing pops from their flues while burning... I've never heard it myself, but my flue is in a masonry chimney outside the house... wouldn't know if it was happening to me. I think the verdict around here was that the popping was bits of creosote cooking off. Probably time for a cleaning when you hear too much of it.

-- Mike

 

[Hogwildz]

That's what I figured... the few times I noticed it I determined that it wasn't worth worrying about and just fired up the stove. I think most of the times it happens when the stove is firing anyways... so what 'cha gonna do?!!??!! Some people have reported hearing pops from their flues while burning... I've never heard it myself, but my flue is in a masonry chimney outside the house... wouldn't know if it was happening to me. I think the verdict around here was that the popping was bits of creosote cooking off. Probably time for a cleaning when you hear too much of it.

-- Mike

Well no popping heard here. I'll have to pop the cap and take a looksee next time I shut her down for a couple days. Guess I better get that cleaning bush & some rods while I am at it & up there.

 

[Mike Wilson]

Pretty much whenever I am on the roof or have a ladder out, I take the brush up, even if I just swipe it a few times, can't hurt. Good thing is though, I rarely get any real accumulation. I try to have at least one super hot/long burn during the day, usually at about 4-5 PM, to heat up the masonry and clean out the system.

-- Mike

 

[Willhound]

HW
I get the exact same thing, after letting things cool for a day or so and then firing back up to temp. Sounds like glass shards coming down the pipe. Used to worry about it, but doesn't bother me any more. I think the sound gets magnified in the pipe and makes it sound like there's a lot more coming down than really is.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I've tried to run the brushes up the chimney once a month. I'm not getting too much coming down, but it's piece of mind. I run my brushes and rod up from the clean out door on the bottom. It doesn't take more than a half an hour. Much of that time is screwing the rods together.

Matt

 

[drewmo]

Glad to hear this cascading sound is not just me. When we first put in the stove, I was burning questionable wood - half, if not more, was pine. After two weeks of burning, I would hear rather loud sliding noises coming from the pipe. After a month, I literally heard an avalanche and that got me freaked out. Bought a brush and rods the next day. After just a couple of passes, I had a good two cups of creosote. Fortunately, at about that time, we received our first delivery of seasoned hardwood and have been burning it ever since. Mostly ash, I think. I have tried to burn hot at least once during the day since. I still do hear a sound from inside the pipe, more like a drizzle than a heavy rain. It usually happen now only when I open the door to place another split in the box, but not every time. I'm thinking the surge of cold air affects the pipe (cold=shrinkage, right?), disturbing it enough to knock whatever buildup there is loose. Waiting for this cold spell to go, so I can let the stove coold down so I can take a peek inside

 

[glassmanjpf]

I've seen those little black flakes outside in the yard around the base of my flue pipe. When I brush the pipe I usually get half a cup but I've always wondered how they ended up out of the pipe without me cleaning. I thought maybe the draft pulled them right off the walls? Could it be?

 

[Hogwildz]

I've seen those little black flakes outside in the yard around the base of my flue pipe. When I brush the pipe I usually get half a cup but I've always wondered how they ended up out of the pipe without me cleaning. I thought maybe the draft pulled them right off the walls? Could it be?

Yeap. Mine happens when starting up from cold. When I open the door the first few times it rains creosote down the pipe and the draft also takes what comes off the underside of the cap and prolly the last foot of pipe or so up and all over the roof & yard. Rain washes it off the roof, yard get fertilized . Most of it is the what comes off the underside of the cap & in my case the screen around the cap. Just pulled it off and cleaned it last week, was between 25% & 40% clogged. Came off very easy though.
I also took some aluminum wire that was already bids nested in a ball, strung a pc of 12/2 electrical romex wiring through it for a handle, and cleaned the top 1-1/2' of pipe that is outside the chimney. Worked like a charm. The creosote that fell down into the baffle burned up real nice and even had a nice glow to it LOL. Only the creosote was glowing not the baffle or insert. I checked it out with another Summit owner and he confirmed what it was. Not that he would ever have had that happen HAHA
Its no big deal anymore. Just a free second burn of the creosote, the way I look at it

 

[BrotherBart]

What the hell is that stove doing putting that much creosote in the pipe? Are we talking flakey black creosote or just brown soot?

Those 800 degree burns sure didn't leave any sote in the pipe for sure.

 

[Hogwildz]

What the hell is that stove doing putting that much creosote in the pipe? Are we talking flakey black creosote or just brown soot?

Those 800 degree burns sure didn't leave any sote in the pipe for sure.

The last 1-1/2' to 2' of my rigid liner extends above the top of the old chimney with extend-a-cap setup. I was burning not green but not perfectly seasoned wood.
It was the thin layer of creosote on that last section of pipe & the bottom side of the cap. The rest of the way I could see down was brown soot. I have limited dry wood, so was mixing some not completely dry in with the rest. I need the heat, so I do what I must. Next year I will have minimal 6 or more cords ready hopefully.
Even though the rigid is internally insulated. The part that rises above the old chimney & the top plate must be cooling more than the rest below. It was only the top that had the black thin layer. Which came right off when I cleaned it. Its mostly my learning curve, the wood I had and a few other factors I am sure. But hell, at least I clean it

 

[colsmith]

I’ve seen those little black flakes outside in the yard Funny you mention that, just in the past few days we have noticed black flakes outside in our yard, too, for the first time. Maybe they happened before and we didn't notice, but with the SNOW we keep getting, they really stand out. We went 3 weeks without fire here because we drove down to Florida for a visit. So we thought maybe it had to do with the chimney getting really cold, and then hot again. Theory, the crud that had shrunk in the cold and then expanded in the heat was loosened and floated out on the draft. We have a very strong draft, generally.

We cleaned the chimney ourselves in Dec. (and had it done in Oct.), and there wasn't that much crud in it. This black flaky stuff isn't hard, it is very soft and dissolves when I try to pick it up, more like sooty ash? But why it would be in black flakes in front of the house I am not really sure. We just got home and started burning last Friday (Wed. now) and have seen this flaky black stuff twice, it is spread around a fairly large area right in front of the house. Puzzling. We are burning adequately seasoned wood, mulberry, apple, and box elder mostly. Admittedly some of the apple is kind of punky from standing dead too long.

Marcia

 

[BrotherBart]

The last 1-1/2' to 2' of my rigid liner extends above the top of the old chimney with extend-a-cap setup. I was burning not green but not perfectly seasoned wood.
It was the thin layer of creosote on that last section of pipe & the bottom side of the cap. The rest of the way I could see down was brown soot. I have limited dry wood, so was mixing some not completely dry in with the rest. I need the heat, so I do what I must.

Ah. OK. Yeah the cap is going to crap up no matter what ya do. I think that is what some of these folks are talking about finding in the yard too. Flaked sote from the cap. Sounds pretty normal from here.

 

[ozarkjeep]

Hawg.

I bought a load of wood, Not green, but not seasoned well either, and I had the EXACT same thing happen the first 2 nights of burning it.

black stuff had blown all over roof, and could be heard inside the flu. I also noticed a reduced draft.

so I cleaned the flu, it wasnt ash, it was very fine creosote

Now, im stacking the splits inside on the hearth a coulpe of days before burning to help dry them , and it makes a big difference.

like you, I needed the heat, and was forced to burn some greenish wood, drying inside, and spitting it smaller ( smaller hotter fires) helped reduce my falling creosote problem ( like, reduce to the fact that its GONE now)

also, when I built a fire those couple of days, you could here it suspended in the flu as long as the fire was burning, I guess it was in there looping from the heat convection flow in the flu, and gravity.

strange, but not too abnormal.

What the hell is that stove doing putting that much creosote in the pipe? Are we talking flakey black creosote or just brown soot?

Those 800 degree burns sure didn't leave any sote in the pipe for sure.

The last 1-1/2' to 2' of my rigid liner extends above the top of the old chimney with extend-a-cap setup. I was burning not green but not perfectly seasoned wood.
It was the thin layer of creosote on that last section of pipe & the bottom side of the cap. The rest of the way I could see down was brown soot. I have limited dry wood, so was mixing some not completely dry in with the rest. I need the heat, so I do what I must. Next year I will have minimal 6 or more cords ready hopefully.
Even though the rigid is internally insulated. The part that rises above the old chimney & the top plate must be cooling more than the rest below. It was only the top that had the black thin layer. Which came right off when I cleaned it. Its mostly my learning curve, the wood I had and a few other factors I am sure. But hell, at least I clean it

 

[elkimmeg]

Tell me its not true I thought the PE were self cleanning?

 

[PAJerry]

They are self-cleaning if you use them right. My installer suggested that if you begin to get creosote on the glass, it's also forming in the liner and you should burn a good, strong fire ASAP to clear things out. He felt that a smaller stove burned hotter would have less problems than a big stove that was dampered down a lot to keep from overheating the house. I'll have a better feel for things this spring when he comes out and we observe and clean the liner, but we usually burn the Vista pretty strong, and the glass is always clean. I've never seen anything on the roof or in the yard either. Bigger may not necessarily be better IMHO.

 

[ozarkjeep]

I was told that at a local stove retailer also, "better to have a small stove and burn it hot, than a large stove dampered down"

But, could you not use a large stove, and build smaller fires and let them burn hot?

then if you NEEDED the full output you would have it?

They are self-cleaning if you use them right. My installer suggested that if you begin to get creosote on the glass, it's also forming in the liner and you should burn a good, strong fire ASAP to clear things out. He felt that a smaller stove burned hotter would have less problems than a big stove that was dampered down a lot to keep from overheating the house. I'll have a better feel for things this spring when he comes out and we observe and clean the liner, but we usually burn the Vista pretty strong, and the glass is always clean. I've never seen anything on the roof or in the yard either. Bigger may not necessarily be better IMHO.

 

[Andre B.]

I was told that at a local stove retailer also, "better to have a small stove and burn it hot, than a large stove dampered down"

But, could you not use a large stove, and build smaller fires and let them burn hot?

then if you NEEDED the full output you would have it?

Kind of but...

If you look at the ratio of the volume of fire to the surface area of the inside of the fire box.
A small fire in a big box is at a disadvantage in that it losses heat faster then if that same size fire was in a small box. There is more relatively cool surface taking radiated heat out of the fire. This makes maintaining a good secondary burn more difficult.
The size of the glass also has an effect, larger glass the fire losses more heat thru it making it more difficult to burn hot.

Why I think the EPA standard 15 lbs of wood burn regardless of the size of the stove is a flawed test.

 

[ozarkjeep]

You make a valid point, BUT,
the heat thru the glass isnt lost though, its into the room, the purpose of the heater is to heat the room right?


and the larger surface area ( heat sink) of a bigger firebox and small fire, is the same as a smaller firebox with more airflow.
a well designed airflow and radiator surface will maximize this.

Think about all the people putting fans behind their stoves to get the heat moved around, that is the same effect as having a small fire in a larger firebox ( the heat is 'lost' faster)

its all a trade off, how hot you have to keep the firebox to keep a clean burn, and then how much heat from that process you can extract without inturpting the process.

I was told that at a local stove retailer also, "better to have a small stove and burn it hot, than a large stove dampered down"

But, could you not use a large stove, and build smaller fires and let them burn hot?

then if you NEEDED the full output you would have it?

Kind of but...

If you look at the ratio of the volume of fire to the surface area of the inside of the fire box.
A small fire in a big box is at a disadvantage in that it losses heat faster then if that same size fire was in a small box. There is more relatively cool surface taking radiated heat out of the fire. This makes maintaining a good secondary burn more difficult.
The size of the glass also has an effect, larger glass the fire losses more heat thru it making it more difficult to burn hot.

Why I think the EPA standard 15 lbs of wood burn regardless of the size of the stove is a flawed test.

 

[BrotherBart]

I was told that at a local stove retailer also, "better to have a small stove and burn it hot, than a large stove dampered down"

But, could you not use a large stove, and build smaller fires and let them burn hot?

then if you NEEDED the full output you would have it?

Kind of but...

If you look at the ratio of the volume of fire to the surface area of the inside of the fire box.
A small fire in a big box is at a disadvantage in that it losses heat faster then if that same size fire was in a small box. There is more relatively cool surface taking radiated heat out of the fire. This makes maintaining a good secondary burn more difficult.
The size of the glass also has an effect, larger glass the fire losses more heat thru it making it more difficult to burn hot.

Why I think the EPA standard 15 lbs of wood burn regardless of the size of the stove is a flawed test.

Actually the formula used to calculate the test load is firebox volume, per the stove's design drawings, times seven. For example a two cubic foot firebox stove would be tested with 14 pounds of air dried 19% to 25% Douglas Fir and a three cubic foot stove would be tested with 21 pounds.

 

[Roospike]

I was told that at a local stove retailer also, "better to have a small stove and burn it hot, than a large stove dampered down"

But, could you not use a large stove, and build smaller fires and let them burn hot?

then if you NEEDED the full output you would have it?

Exactly.

How does one tell if there stove it too big ?
You cant run the same size fire year around , it dont work like that. I dont need to full size of my firebox 75% of the time (3.0 cf) but when it gets 15° and lower the large fire box is needed. Woodstoves dont work like you home furnace and put out just one set BTU and then turns on and off as needed. One have to have a wide range of heat output from there stove to heat there home from 50° through -15° and with a wood stove your have to have different size fires , different loads.

This is an issue of so many people under sizing there stove and cant get the proper heat out put when it gets really cold , they run out of stove / size / fire box and it also shortens over night burn times.

 

[BrotherBart]

Gotta ask though Spike. What is the secret to getting the big firebox stove burning clean without cooking off a lot of wood with extra primary air to keep it clean without getting the big boy up to hot surface temps with smaller loads?

 

[Roospike]

See New thread branched off of this thread.

"Large stove and smaller burns"


https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/6334/