EPA 2020 regulation questions.

Texas123

Member
Apr 12, 2016
118
Stephenville, TX
I have noticed Jotul has one EPA 2020 compliant stove but none of the others are compliant.
Some of the other brands have partial compliance according to the literature.

Using Jotul as an example, does this mean unless they upgrade the other stove models will they legally be a one stove company on January the 1st of 2020?
Not being an engineer I don't see how you can install a catalytic converter in these smaller stoves.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
18,340
central pa
I have noticed Jotul has one EPA 2020 compliant stove but none of the others are compliant.
Some of the other brands have partial compliance according to the literature.

Using Jotul as an example, does this mean unless they upgrade the other stove models will they legally be a one stove company on January the 1st of 2020?
Not being an engineer I don't see how you can install a catalytic converter in these smaller stoves.
Yes if they only have one compliant stove they will only be able to sell one. And cats work perfectly fine in small stoves. But 2020 does not require cats at all there are some non cats that comply and other that are clean enough but haven't been retested yet.
 

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
4,605
Northern NH
There will be shakeout of stove manufacturers and most likely some stoves released to the public that will not be user friendly or suffer from unexpected durability issues. Probably more than a few great sales on old stock that will not comply. I missed out on a great deal on boiler a few years ago when some regulation changed and the dealer had excess inventory.

The other prediction is there is going to be a increase in posts from new stove owners the winter of 2021 regarding that their stove "will not work". In order to get clean emissions, marginal installations just are not not going to be good enough. Stove drafts will need to be within specs meaning some folks may need to put in insulated liners and may need to increase stack height. Stoves in tight homes may need to add fresh air supplies. Folks with marginally seasoned wood are going to be out of luck. Probably good deals on used wood stoves in the summer of 2021 ;)
 

kennyp2339

Minister of Fire
Feb 16, 2014
4,386
07462
I also agree with @peakbagger and I will add by 2021 they will be posts of "help my stove is running to hot" or "I cant turn my stove down enough" seeming that low budget stoves are simply eliminating the air control or making the air flow bigger when the control is turned down all the way, look at what US stove is releasing lately.
 
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Woody5506

Minister of Fire
Feb 14, 2017
694
Rochester NY
I wonder if new regulations are bound to steer people away from wood burning. Obviously this could've been said in the past already, and I'm sure it did make people choose alternative methods. I guess what I'm saying is even if stove manufacturers are able to keep up with regulations, how many people are going to be willing to do what Peakbagger mentioned - proper installs + optimally seasoned wood, which means ideally keeping 3+ years worth unless you have some other source for seasoned wood. It's tough enough for a lot of people running EPA stoves, makes me wonder if the 2020 regs are bound to make it tougher?
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
18,340
central pa
I also agree with @peakbagger and I will add by 2021 they will be posts of "help my stove is running to hot" or "I cant turn my stove down enough" seeming that low budget stoves are simply eliminating the air control or making the air flow bigger when the control is turned down all the way, look at what US stove is releasing lately.
What stoves are doing that to meet 2020? Those us stove co stoves have been on the market 10 or 15 years now.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
78,037
South Puget Sound, WA
There will be shakeout of stove manufacturers and most likely some stoves released to the public that will not be user friendly or suffer from unexpected durability issues. Probably more than a few great sales on old stock that will not comply. I missed out on a great deal on boiler a few years ago when some regulation changed and the dealer had excess inventory.

The other prediction is there is going to be a increase in posts from new stove owners the winter of 2021 regarding that their stove "will not work". In order to get clean emissions, marginal installations just are not not going to be good enough. Stove drafts will need to be within specs meaning some folks may need to put in insulated liners and may need to increase stack height. Stoves in tight homes may need to add fresh air supplies. Folks with marginally seasoned wood are going to be out of luck. Probably good deals on used wood stoves in the summer of 2021 ;)
That is unfortunately a given. Some problems may be valid, but a lot will not be. I predict that at least half of those with issues will be the stove owner and not the stove. We see this every fall as new stove owners try to burn damp wood and claim that the stove is not getting enough air. Another 25% will be installation problems of too short flue systems, negative pressure, etc..
 

mar13

Member
Nov 5, 2018
160
Humboldt coast, California
I have noticed Jotul has one EPA 2020 compliant stove but none of the others are compliant.
Some of the other brands have partial compliance according to the literature.

Using Jotul as an example, does this mean unless they upgrade the other stove models will they legally be a one stove company on January the 1st of 2020?
Not being an engineer I don't see how you can install a catalytic converter in these smaller stoves.
Actually, the last day to sell the preEPA2020 will be May 15, 2020. So still over a year away.

Pacific Energy seems to have found a solution for non-cat stoves. Lopi is also showing non-cat stoves that are meeting regulations. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the current cat-stove manufacturers will get at least a short-term boost in business.
 

webby3650

Master of Fire
Sep 2, 2008
10,189
Indiana
Actually, the last day to sell the preEPA2020 will be May 15, 2020. So still over a year away.

Pacific Energy seems to have found a solution for non-cat stoves. Lopi is also showing non-cat stoves that are meeting regulations. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the current cat-stove manufacturers will get at least a short-term boost in business.
Have these manufacturers actually passed the emissions testing with a non cat, or “should pass”?
The only Lopis I’ve seen that were actually 2020 compliant so far were hybrid.
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
16,098
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Have these manufacturers actually passed the emissions testing with a non cat, or “should pass”?
The only Lopis I’ve seen that were actually 2020 compliant so far were hybrid.
The epa list is current through April. Lots of stoves that “should” pass have not passed yet.
 

Ctwoodtick

Minister of Fire
Jun 5, 2015
1,060
Southeast CT
I understand that stoves that don’t pass the 2020 standards they can’t be sold after the deadline. Maybe a silly question, but if certain epa stoves don’t meet the 2020 standards, will you still be able to purchase parts for these stoves after the deadline?
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
18,340
central pa
I understand that stoves that don’t pass the 2020 standards they can’t be sold after the deadline. Maybe a silly question, but if certain epa stoves don’t meet the 2020 standards, will you still be able to purchase parts for these stoves after the deadline?
Yes parts will still be available. You can still get parts for some pre epa stuff.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
18,340
central pa
The epa list is current through April. Lots of stoves that “should” pass have not passed yet.
Mostly because they havnt been tested yet. Not that i am saying they will but there is so much speclation here about how horrible it will be when the stove that are compliant on the market are fine
 

mar13

Member
Nov 5, 2018
160
Humboldt coast, California
The Lopi Evergreen is noncat and passed
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
16,098
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
It’s like being pregnant, the stove either has passed or has not. I am not going to speculate or assume that a female should become pregnant either.

Those green stripes are earned.
 
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Woody Stover

Minister of Fire
Dec 25, 2010
10,478
Southern IN
Not being an engineer I don't see how you can install a catalytic converter in these smaller stoves.
My Keystone is 1.4 cu.ft, has a cat, and tested below 2 g/hr. No green stripe yet, however...
 

peakbagger

Minister of Fire
Jul 11, 2008
4,605
Northern NH
I wonder I f there is some value to manufacturer that has a warehouse full of non compliant stoves to not admit that they have a compliant one yet? I expect the average person would want the 2020 compliant version if it was listed which would mean one less sale of non compliant version. Given the timing I could guess the company would have a blow out sale to dump excess inventory this summer and fall and then roll out the 2020 complaint versions at a later date.

Pure speculation but expect some marketing geek has already planned it out.
 
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CreosoteCowboy

New Member
Jun 1, 2019
22
MN
As someone mentioned above, Jotul is only showing one compliant stove with no new announcements. I think it's pretty unlikely that they don't have new/revised models in the pipeline, unless they plan to fold in the U.S. market after this year.

It seems more likely to me that they'll sell as many of the old stoves as possible next winter, and wait until about April 15th to bring out the new models. They can always buy the existing stock back from dealers and ship it another market like Canada or Scandinavia for sale where it's still legal. That of course isn't cost-free, but I'm guessing it's a better business proposition than trying to sell old stoves when you've already unveiled the new, cleaner ones that you're going to need to market as better than the old ones.
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
16,098
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
As someone mentioned above, Jotul is only showing one compliant stove with no new announcements. I think it's pretty unlikely that they don't have new/revised models in the pipeline, unless they plan to fold in the U.S. market after this year.

It seems more likely to me that they'll sell as many of the old stoves as possible next winter, and wait until about April 15th to bring out the new models. They can always buy the existing stock back from dealers and ship it another market like Canada or Scandinavia for sale where it's still legal. That of course isn't cost-free, but I'm guessing it's a better business proposition than trying to sell old stoves when you've already unveiled the new, cleaner ones that you're going to need to market as better than the old ones.
Lots of well known manufacturers just haven't put there new stoves on the list yet. Could be a marketing strategy, problems passing, still developing new models, hoping the regs are delayed, or choosing to bow out of US but I do expect many more models to show up on the list before the deadline. It's still early. The current models listed are from overachievers. Like the kid that ate his lima beans first.
 

jetsam

Minister of Fire
Dec 12, 2015
4,163
Long Island, NY
youtu.be
The current models listed are from overachievers. Like the kid that ate his lima beans first.
Given that the certification process takes a while even if you don't need to retest, and a failure may see you going back to your engineers to change the stove, 8-9 months before the deadline isn't what I'd call overachiever territory. The new rules go live March 15. Even if the stove passes 2020 emissions in your lab, conditions won't be exactly the same in the third party lab... so as a manufacturer, I'd not want to cut it close on that one. Shipping your dealers a stove that you think will definitely meet the standard, and then it doesn't? Ugh.


@BKVP : From the time that you finish in-house testing and decide it's time to lab test your stove, how long is the process before the stove is officially EPA compliant?

Is 2020 adding to this figure because labs are busy?
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
16,098
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Given that the certification process takes a while even if you don't need to retest, and a failure may see you going back to your engineers to change the stove, 8-9 months before the deadline isn't what I'd call overachiever territory. The new rules go live March 15. Even if the stove passes 2020 emissions in your lab, conditions won't be exactly the same in the third party lab... so as a manufacturer, I'd not want to cut it close on that one. Shipping your dealers a stove that you think will definitely meet the standard, and then it doesn't? Ugh.


@BKVP : From the time that you finish in-house testing and decide it's time to lab test your stove, how long is the process before the stove is officially EPA compliant?

Is 2020 adding to this figure because labs are busy?
Obviously a Lima bean eater. Last minute is very common.
 

Jan Pijpelink

Minister of Fire
Jan 2, 2015
1,573
Lindenwold, South Jersey
I think I am involved in a broccoli thread somewhere on here too...
Where has the chemical smell discussion gone to?