Enviro Windsor ignitor always ON

[MalcolmH]

Hey everyone, been awhile as I never have problems with my Flame fp45, but I recently picked up an old 2003 Enviro Windsor, I thought it was a mint condition Empress blue ceramic in running condition so I sort of jumped on it without going over the ID plate which says its the predecessor Enviro Windsor, no biggy I guess, I hope it has the same rating as the Empress, most parts seem interchangeable so not sure what exactly got internally updated?. After taking it apart Completely and cleaning it(very easy to work on by the way), and modifying the draft so its actually adjustable, I noted the exhaust blower was brand new and the ignitor was brand new, convection fan seemed fairly new, and it wasn't filthy either, must have been recently cleaned and lightly used for most of its life, after running it on high and low everything functions as it should ****but then I noticed that the Ignitor was still glowing red hot and on after running for extended periods**** . I would have thought it would shut off using the same sensor or similar sensor that tells it to turn on the convection fans, what gives?, why is the ignitor always glowing red hot after lights and warming up, it does shut off when you shut the stove off ofcourse. I'm not familiar with the location and functions of each individual snap disk on this stove, is there one that has failed that would cause this?, I'm left ready to call Enviro or put in a toggle switch to kill power going to the ignitor, but thats not very user friendly especially if someone forgets. I don't use Thermostats on my pellets stoves, and didn't notice a connection for one on this Windsor, but i stayed away from the Control board as i didn't want to upset it in anyway as we just met. Any help or info on this stove would be greatly appreciated.

 

[skinanbones]

i would check and make sure that the stove didn't have a thermostat installed at some point. I have seen these older stove do some weird things without the jumper wire and dip switch in place. Page7 of the manual covers the thermostat. https://enviro.com/custom_content/d...nstruction Windsor Domestic Owners Manual.pdf
If the ignitor is staying on and not cycling on a 15 minute on off cycle, i would say that the circut board has failed.

Unfortunately the Windsor is a completely different stove inside than the Empress. The Windsor was rushed to the market too quickly and Enviro was slow to admit fault. The one good thing from the Windsor was that Enviro spent about 2 years field testing any new pellet stove, before bringing it to market. While stoves still had issues, nothing compared to the problems that dealers and customers had with the windsor

 

[jzm2cc]

I've seen control board triac's short internally as well as relay contacts welding together, both causing igniter to stay on and burn out rather quickly. This could be the reason and someone skilled with a multi-meter could confirm this. Parts can be found online via Google search if defective part has a number on it, then removed and new part soldered in.

Other possibilities are control board software issue, or feedback circuit issue (snap disk) but since room fan is working ok I doubt that's it.

Some one could have wired igniter to 115v too but unlikely. Guessing igniter is not hot when stove is off.

 

[MalcolmH]

Skin, I'm assuming you mixed up Empress and Windsor, you said Windsor was rushed to market, then you said they tested it for 2 years before taking to market. All the parts inside the Windsor seem to match or are interchangeable to the Empress except the Latest Control board, some older Empress's 2007 and previous use a very similar control board. I haven't dug into this stoves history to much but see very few problems discussed except control board issues for the empress ironically. I'll pull the board today, looks like new control boards are available, this Windsor is the nicest pellet stove I've ever seen and used, love how quiet it is. I'm curious what the rash of problems are that plagued the Windsor, especially since this 1 is a 2003 and runs and looks like new except the ignitor. Would i be able to put in a toggle switch inline with the ignitor wires until i fix the board. If anyone has repaired this board or similar please point me to the faulty triac so I can have it replaced as oppose to replacing the entire board.

 

[skinanbones]

Sorry yes the Empress had two years of testing before it was relaunched to the market. While most of the parts that bolt on look simular, that's where things end. The chassis of the Empress was a complete brand new design. It allowed service techs like myself to work on them easier and created a better exhaust flow path through the stove to allow the stove to run easier. It also allowed for a larger convection blower i believe and that gave a more even heat from the Empress's heat exchanger.
One of the big issues on the Windsor, was getting a reliable vaccum signal. Enviro's eventual solution was to put a metal tube in the air intake port behind the burn pot and take the vaccum signal from there. That created some new issues with burn pot air turbulence, but the stoves stayed running.
The Empress like most other Enviro stoves take their vaccum signal from just ahead of the exhaust blower currently.

 

[MalcolmH]

Well this 2003 Windsor stove has the vacuum port just behind the fire brick plate on the exhaust port just ahead of the exhaust blower, with a small baffle covering it from debris immediately after the draft control plate on the exhaust. I'm surprised you suggested the stove is difficult to work on, must be a service tech thing,.. its the most basic pellet stove design I have ever worked on and the quietest pellet stove I've used, after you pull the fake fire brick you could see the exhaust blower through the port, pull the pipe at the back and you can see the other side of the blower, I can take the thing completely apart in 10 minutes, clean it in 5 minutes and have it back together in less time. Most of the parts for Empress and Windsor are the same part #'s and are interchangeable except 2007 and later control boards. Looks like it was set for Thermostat control thanks for the tip, will update if that solves the problem.

 

[MalcolmH]

I installed the stove and am running it, switched it over to ON/OFF operation on the J9 pin, it had the jumper installed already, runs the same as it did before and the ignitor still doesn't turn off after 1/2 hour run time, I unplugged the spade connector to the ignitor for now while it runs, and I'll run the stove with a toggle switch for the ignitor for now, and if I like the stove as much as I do so far I'll pick up the control board or triac. Not familiar or equipped for board soldering, but if someone has experience with this board please point me in the right direction, there are quite a few triacs it seems, but i could take it in if I knew which and what triac was the issue if it is the case.

 

[MalcolmH]

So to update, this stoves control board needs to NOT have the j9 pins jumped to operate it in manual ON/OFF mode, I'm not using a thermostat if that matters, with the J9 pins jumped it WILL NOT shut off ever using the power button, it goes into idle and keeps feeding pellets on idle/LOW, I cannot find a manual with my exact control board out of the 6 different manuals I've seen, my control board looks like the one Skin posted but has the option to shut the convection fan off from 1-3 heat levels, when enough heat builds up it will kick them on high until it cools and then shuts the fan down again, sorta neat feature, and you can trim the auger feed rate. I noticed J8 pins have no jumper on them, not sure what they do?, have to call Enviro and find out why the stove is opposite from others. Ignitor still stays on while the stove is ON. Checked polarity on the power supply and wires as the neutral wire is wired directly to the ignitor and convection fan, but everything is correct as assumed as the convection fan kicks on and off depending on stove temp. YOU can see the toggle i installed for now, either i get a sticker for the toggle switch or a try another control board at $340 + tax...

 

[MalcolmH]

Found the correct manual for my Windsor, but still doesn't clear up why the j9 jumper in place wouldn't let me power down the pellet stove,.. maybe the thermostat jumper wire was loose, I'll try jumping J9 again and tightening the thermostat jumper wire securely and see if it acts the same way or if it functions as per the manual and hopefully the ignitor will shut off after the auto start mode(flashing ON/OFF) has completed and switches to a solid ON/OFF .

**Update, same issue, will not power off with J9 jumper installed and ignitor stays on still**

https://enviro.com/custom_content/docs/manuals/C-10776%20Instruction%20Windsor%20Domestic%20Owners%20Manual.pdf

 

[Ssyko]

One of the triac’s has probably failed (shorted) closed that would send power continuously to the igniter.

i don’t remember which one was the igniter. But ill be in the shop shortly and will test a board.

 

[Ssyko]

well the new boards are completely different. but the igniter is controled by the little relay(black/whit/blue) box mounted by the step down coil. if the contacts have welded themselves shut they will feed power. it sounds like the board has seen a power issue at one point.

this may help in your jumper settings.
DHC2000

DHC3000

 

[MalcolmH]

Thank you, its the DHC2000 for sure, still doesn't make sense mine is opposite with J9 jumped it goes into HI/LOW and the power buttonON/OFF becomes non functional, always stuck ON, have to unplug it to shut it down... Without J9 jumped it works as it should Manual ON/OFF mode, in both modes the ignitor will not shut off. I see 2 little black boxes on my board next to the coil, one close to edge 4pin and the other 6 pin next to the large Capacitor. I could take it in and ask if they can get the correct triac to replace it, just unsure which one it is and why this board is opposite, I expect Enviro is closed for the holidays so I didn't bother calling yet. Here is a pic with both J9 pins jumped, and like i said it goes into HI/LOW mode like this, cannot turn unit off like this.

 

[Ssyko]

thats not reversed. the jumpers are only for "thermostat settings" with them jumped they are telling the stove it has a thermostat connected and it is either HIGH/LOW or ON/OFF. with the jumper removed it goes into manual mode where you control the off and on function and heat settings

 

[Ssyko]

the Relay in red.. i do see with your pic there is 4 triac's. one of them may be the trigger for the igniter circuit and it could be bad sending power to the relay. it's hard to say without reverse engineering the board. i haven't had the opertunity to look at one in person, only pics

 

[MalcolmH]

Oh wow, that explains a lot.. funny now that you mention it, all the manual refers to is "Thermostat installation" thermostat mode ON/OFF and HI/LOW, they make no mention of Manual mode operation I guess i should have assumed that jumping the thermostat wires means manual mode, thank you for clearing that up for me.. I'll look into having the local electronic shop see if they will attempt to replace the relay. I see the replacement board available for $340 CAD, thanks again for all your help. Again with the jumper pin installed as pictured its in HI/LOW, with jumper pin not installed its in ON/OFF - Jumper wire on thermostat in both cases .

 

[Ssyko]

 

[MalcolmH]

After going through the Service manual, could it be possible that the ignitor temp switch is stuck ON and not tripping OFF at 120*F, ie not telling the ignitor to shut off??. Is it possible that the convection blower uses a different switch to turn on/off and operate that variable speed blower.? I think the ignitor switch is on the fire box wall above the exhaust blower?..

EDIT: it appears they call it a 120*F exhaust temp sensor on the exhaust housing with 2 brown wires going to it, I'll test it to see if the contacts open after 15min start up, assuming it is normally closed, maybe this stove doesn't use this sensor to shut the ignitor off, still learning here..

https://enviro.com/custom_content/docs/manuals/C-12145%20Instruction%20PELLET%20Service%20Manual.pdf

The How To’s For Troubleshooting
How To By-Pass THe 120°F igniTor TemPeraTure sensor/swiTCH:

120oF Ignitor Temperature Sensor/Switch

Male-Male Connector

NOTE: Convection blower was removed for clarity.
The 120°F ignitor temperature sensor/switch is found on the air channel behind the back panel.
Use a male-male connector to by- pass the 120°F ignitor temperature sensor/switch as shown in Figure 34.
Caution: Use care when removing the wires, as the sensor can be damaged.
Used in trouBleShooting section “the ignitor Will not Work”.
Figure 34: By-Passing The 120oF Ignitor Temperature Sensor/Switch.

 

[Ssyko]

the igniter is turned on and off by a timer on the control board not a temp sensor/switch. it's in the programming on the micro controller (yellow). voltage and amperage spike can and have damaged many boards.

 

[MalcolmH]

Thank you for all this great info, its looking like the toggle switch will due for this season.