chimney help clearance problem

[RoosterBoy]

hay guys i am installing a avalon free standing wood stove i was wondering what is the clearance for single wall pipe for a none combustible wall the stove is being installed in front of a brick wall witch is in front of a combustible wall with a 1-1/2 inch air space

the single wall will go straight up to a double wall pipe. the picture is not mine but the brick is just like how mine is and how my stove will be install except mine will go straight up through the attic and my brick wall is 1-1/2 inches away from the main wall

thanks
Jason

 

[webbie]

In general, it is 18" from combustible wall - the brick and air space can cut it 66% to the original combustible wall, which means the pipe can be quite close to that brick - maybe 3 inches or less.

UPDATE

note: the above is wrong - see below....only 50% reduction is allowed with pipe - the 66% is for stoves!

 

[elkimmeg]

You may use the 66% but at no time can any enclosure reduce clearances to any more than 12"

Craig is right about 66% but errored on the 12 minium reduction

 

[webbie]

Elk, are you saying that no case can reduce PIPE clearances to less than 12"?

And, what does the 26" pertain to? (I dont' have current NFPA, but I think it has not changed much).

The stove clearance may not come into play since the stove is completely convection and has close clearances.

My off-the-cuff interpretation would be to use 9" from the pipe to original combustible wall.....which would be about 4" from the brick.

 

[Homefire]

You may use the 66% pertaining to 26"' down to 12" but at no time can any elclosure reduce clearances to any more than 12"

Craig is right about 66% but errored on the 12 minium reduction

Are the codes from Foxboro Ma. the law for the entire country or are codes and consensus still allowed to vary from local to local?

 

[webbie]

The NFPA is generally used as the basis for this stuff, but as you can see reading and interpreting it becomes difficult. For instance, the tables provided generally pertain to "generic" stoves or situations where the stove listing plate and/or manual does not address the clearance. A question was asked about the pipe - and I fear my initial answer could have been wrong - that is because pipe is considered different than stove and (at least in the past) was subject to 9" minimum clearance. Either way, 4" from his brick in this situation should do the job (as long as stove clearances work out).

OK, I dug out my 2003 NFPA and connector clearances are set at a minumum of 9" from the original combustible wall

 

[webbie]

Are the codes from Foxboro Ma. the law for the entire country or are codes and consensus still allowed to vary from local to local?

If you really want to hear something strange - I received my Pellet stove pipe yesterday -

One inch clearance - UL approved, etc.

BUT, in Canada the same pipe needs 3" clearance - written right on it! Now, there is not ANY rational explanation for this. As any engineer here can calculate, there is a world of difference between 1" and 3". In fact, most things that require 3" could be very dangerous at 1".

And yet that is the case. I'm going to install to 1" and feel very safe about it.

 

[elkimmeg]

Are the codes from Foxboro Ma. the law for the entire country or are codes and consensus still allowed to vary from local to local?

I did not know Foxboro codes govern my town? Foxboro has asked me to assist with wood stove inspection and I am on their emergenccy call list But have never drawn a pay check from them. I can assure you they like all 351 towns /cities comply the the MAa sixth edition of building codes. As of Sept 15 the 7th edition based on the international Codes. No we can not make up our own code No town can. However zonning bylaws Boards of health can implement variation of the state code and have home rules but Building Plumbing Electrical Gas and mechanical are now nased on the 2006 International code. International codes combined BOCA the Southern Building codes and the Western under the nation wide universal Uniformed International codes. NFPA has never been adopted only for fire fighters Finally in 2006 International Codes has reconised some of NFPA 211

Homefire is this a bad attempt to be funny or are you trying to bait me. Ido not know if foxboro is the only one in the 351 towns to have its own codes but that's not my problem

 

[Homefire]

Are the codes from Foxboro Ma. the law for the entire country or are codes and consensus still allowed to vary from local to local?

I did not know Foxboro codes govern my town? Foxboro has asked me to assist with wood stove inspection and I am on their emergenccy ccall list But have never drawn a pay check from them. I can assure you they like all 351 cowns /cities comply the the MAa sixth edition of building codess As of Sept 15 the 7th edition based on the international Codes. No we can not make up our own code No town can However zonning bylaws Boards of health ccan implement variation of the state code and have home rules but Building Plumbing Electrical Gas and mechanical are now nased on the 2006 International code. International codes combined BOCA the Southern Building codes and the Western under the nation wide universal Uniformed International codes. NFPA has never ben adopted only for fire fighters Finally in 2006 International Codes has reconised some of NFPA 211

Homefire is this a bad attempt to be funny or are you trying to bait me. Ido not know if foxboro is the only one in the 351 towns to have its own codes but that's not my problem

Gee Elk did you ever think just maybe the codes might vary from place to place?

 

[webbie]

That's exactly what Elk was trying to say - they don't differ any more. There used to be 3 or 4 various authorities, but they have now all agreed to come together around the IBC....and NFPA when it comes to certain stuff including stoves and chimneys.

So, no, code does not differ in the US - it does in Canada. Also, certain places can, for instance, ban inefficient appliances (like vented gas logs) or vent-Free or even wood stoves. But these bans do not relate to the code.

Now, in reality, if you ask building officials in 100 jurisdictions the same question, you are likely to get LOTS of different answers....but that is a matter of lack of education and too much to do.

Having one national code is the first step to somehow sorting all this out.

 

[elkimmeg]

47 states have adopted the International Codes. The others like MA a edited the base International codes.
The International codes formed in 1996 was to unify codes in all states. we all should be governed by the same codes,
but you and I both know there is always differences in interpetations. Some inspectors may have pet peevs they look for and enforce. I do not have to use NFPA211 as it still is not a nationally adopted code yet but 2006 International codes are refferencing it for the first time. Since most stove listings are tsted to NFPA 211, the listings call in enforcing the code or refferencing it


Craig is correct with his table interpetation but Notice the differen ce in both codes. As an inspector we are told to enforce the most stringent when in doubt. Here is where common sense experience and knowledge of both codes imparitive.

here is a direct cut and paste out of the 2006 International Mechanical codes

2006 International Mechanical Codes
SECTION 308
CLEARANCE REDUCTION


308.7 Solid fuel-burning appliances. The clearance reduction
methods specified in Table 308.6 shall not be utilized to reduce
the clearance required for solid fuel-burning appliances that
are labeled for installation with clearances of 12 inches (305
mm) or less. Where appliances are labeled for installation with
clearances of greater than 12 inches (305 mm), the clearance
reduction methods of Table 308.6 shall not reduce the clearance
to less than 12 inches (305 mm).

 

[webbie]

I'm really confused - Elk.

The entire thread is about PIPE ( connector) clearances, and that is what I addressed....but you are quoting APPLIANCE codes as if they apply to connectors. They do not. In addition, the paragraph you quote above is very specific and applies to stove with reduced clearances. It basically says that:
1. If a stove is listed for - example 10" - it cannot be reduced by the usual methods - has to stay at 10 or else something in the manual must address it.
2. If the stove is listed for greater than 12" - for instance 24" - than this says it also cannot be reduced to less than 12" - again, unless addressed in manual.

This paragraph does not apply to chimney connectors.

 

[elkimmeg]

craig like most codes other chapters refference others this is the case


CHAPTER 8
CHIMNEYS AND VENTS

803.10.6 Clearances. Connectors shall have a minimum
clearance to combustibles in accordance with Table
803.10.6. The clearances specified in Table 803.10.6 apply,
except where the listing and labeling of an appliance specifies
a different clearance, in which case the labeled clearance
shall apply. The clearance to combustibles for
connectors shall be reduced only in accordance with Section 308

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Are the codes from Foxboro Ma. the law for the entire country or are codes and consensus still allowed to vary from local to local?

If you really want to hear something strange - I received my Pellet stove pipe yesterday -

One inch clearance - UL approved, etc.

BUT, in Canada the same pipe needs 3" clearance - written right on it! Now, there is not ANY rational explanation for this. As any engineer here can calculate, there is a world of difference between 1" and 3". In fact, most things that require 3" could be very dangerous at 1".

And yet that is the case. I'm going to install to 1" and feel very safe about it.

Simpson has done a running change on there clearances, it has been three inches for years, the last batch i got in is ok for 1" in the states, i called my manufacture rep, and confirmed that the new pipe has a 1" clearance.

Now for single wall, some manufactures state 18". but jotul for example states 14". The standard is what ever the manufacture states, and if they dont state it then its 18" with no protection.

 

[elkimmeg]

Back to the original guestion Roster boy called me and explained his situation he is all set once I topd him to measure from the combustiables behind the bricks he is good to go

 

[webbie]

craig like most codes other chapters refference others this is the case


CHAPTER 8
CHIMNEYS AND VENTS

803.10.6 Clearances. Connectors shall have a minimum
clearance to combustibles in accordance with Table
803.10.6. The clearances specified in Table 803.10.6 apply,
except where the listing and labeling of an appliance specifies
a different clearance, in which case the labeled clearance
shall apply. The clearance to combustibles for
connectors shall be reduced only in accordance with Section 308

Yeah, but you didn't post the table that is referenced.

So, to be clear, are you saying that NFPA 9" pipe connector min. clearances is wrong?
I will post table if you like.

 

[webbie]

Now for single wall, some manufactures state 18". but jotul for example states 14". The standard is what ever the manufacture states, and if they dont state it then its 18" with no protection.

Now, just to confuse us all a little more, the "generic" pipe clearances is gived as 3 x the pipe size-

So 6" pipe=18"
and 8" pipe =24"

unless contradicted in the manual (which it usually it).

In the case of stoves and fireplaces, it pays to read the manual.

 

[RoosterBoy]

thanks guys for all your replies i called don yesterday and he gave me the thumbs up i am 10-1/2 inch to the back of the brick and 14-1/2 to the back of the combustion wall so im all clear

thanks
Jason