buying wood firplace insert

[myrtie]

I have a masonary fireplace that smokes most of the times that I have tried to use it. It was built by an experienced stonemason about 4 years ago. When told about the problem he added another row of river rock to make the opening smaller and increase the draw. I never know when or why it smokes. It usually starts out fine and then the smoke starts puffing into the room. I have tried opening a window, making sure there are no fans on in the house etc. I am now thinking of getting an insert. I have checked with Rich's Hearth and Home and they suggested a Lopi Answer. I live in the Seattle area. My house is heated with gas and I mainly want a wood burning fireplace or stove because I love wood fires Can't take much more smoke though! I am not very technical and want something that is fairly foolproof when installed properly (obviously I won't be doing that myself)! I don't want to give up and just put a plant in the fireplace opening! It is curved, 36 inches hight at the top of the curve and is real river rock with a exposed rock chimney up the front of the house. I have two large trees to the west side of the house and I have read that this can effect the draw of a fireplace. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I just don't want to buy an insert that will be more of a headache than I have now. Myrtie (Tana)

 

[Shane]

I would suggest having a fireplace person quote your installation. It sounds like you have a few extenuating circumstances that would require actually looking at our situation to determine that likely cause(s) of your problem. First thing I would do is look at NFPA211 code and make sure that the fireplace is built to that spec. (firebox opening to chimney size ratio, proper smoke chamber construction etc). If so then your probably looking at negative pressure issues or possibly downdraft caused by the trees you told us about. IF the fireplace construction is the issue then it is possible that a wood insert will help your situation.

 

[myrtie]

Thanks for your response! I had the feeling the sales people want to do just that...sell. Are there good independent people who evaluate the issues I mentioned or can a good fireplace shop send someone out? Will an insert most likely solve the problem anyway?

 

[biggins08]

I would start with a local building inspector on the chimney/ fireplace....

 

[BrotherBart]

How tall is your chimney?

 

[begreen]

Welcome Tana, what part of Seattle are you in? Sutter Hearth in Ballard is pretty reputable. They will tell it like it is.

http://www.sutterhearth.com/wood/wood-inserts.html

An exterior chimney can be fussy. Until it's hot, it can draft poorly. On a windy day or when the temps are moderate, this can lead to smoke coming in the house. How tall would you estimate it to be? Does it work better in winter than right now?

One thing you might try before starting a fire is to ball up some newspaper and start it burning above the damper. This may help establish draft.

If you are looking at an insert, how wide is the current fireplace opening at the base? How deep is the fireplace at the top? and bottom?

 

[Harley]

Will an insert most likely solve the problem anyway?

Most likely, yes (as compared to an open fireplace) and you will get more useable heat out of it as well. I'd start by having the chimney inspected and cleaned, and go from there. Once that's done - you could open up a lot of possibilities as to what you could put in there - shop around - I don't think every place you are going to find is just "looking to sell", but may be able to give you some real good advice depending on the actual layout and circumstances in the house. Some additional info on the layout would help.

 

[myrtie]

I think the chimney is about 20 feet. There are 3 tall (maybe 50 ft hemlocks and a cedar) on the west side of the house and a large dogwood
at the front of the lot. The lot slopes slightly down hill with the front of the house and chimney facing south.

 

[myrtie]

Wow! Thank you all for your posts. It is chilly and rainy today and no fire! The house is not cold though... The chimney is about 20 feet tall. The opening height from hearth to top of opening is 27 inches. The opening width is 30 inches. The opening is curved. The floor depth is 24 inches. The fire usually seems great for the first 5 to 10 minutes and then puffs into the house. I don't think it needs cleaning because I probably haven't had more than 15 fires in it total. It's only 4 years old. Whenever I built a fire my son, who is 19 now, would say " oh not again Mom" because the house would become smokey most of the time but not always. I'm not observant enough to remember if the temperature outside made a difference. The last one I built was 4 days ago in the evening and it was in the low 50s or high 40s outside.

 

[elkimmeg]

Can you post some pictures inside and outside in relationship to your house Would be nice to know what size clay flue is in there Lets see if we can figure out the smoke issue.

First check you are sure the damper was fully open? manual; damper or rotary?

 

[begreen]

If it's working sometimes, and not others, my guess is that it's a matter of a marginally drafting system. Moderate temperatures, windy days and perhaps negative house interior pressures can all make the problem worse.

Is the house quite tightly weatherstripped and sealed with good windows? Is there a whole house ventilation system running? If yes, and you are venturesome, try lighting a fire on a cold calm day with a nearby window cracked open an inch or two. (Make sure the clothes dryer, and/or kitchen and bath fans are not running).

 

[myrtie]

Thee damper is fully open and it is a manual one that I pull forward to open. I have already changed the programming on the all house fan and it comes on twice a day when there would be no fire burning( one am and 7 am. And I make sure ther are no fans running. Yes the house is well weatherized and I open a nearby window about two inches when I light the fire. I cross my fingers too! There is a picture of the house on the website for the architect who designed the remodel four years ago. Her website is Living Shelter Designs in Issaquah Washington and my house is the Thiele Remodel. There is a picture of the outside of the house and a bit of the fireplace inside. I'm sorry but I don't know how to post a picture and my son is not here!

 

[begreen]

Lovely spot Tana. That's a beautiful remodel.

The chimney looks pretty massive. It would be helpful to get the flue dimensions that Elk requested. But I suspect that it would take a lot of heat to get it drafting well.

House link:
(broken link removed to http://www.livingshelter.com/Thiele.html)

 

[begreen]

It looks like you have done everything right. Kudos for being aware of the wholehouse ventilation system. It could be that the exterior chimney stone work is just too massive to heat up well enough in our benign climate.

If you do put in an insert, I think it will solve the problem, but given the lovely architectural details, I'd be reluctant to put in a square box surround. To me it just wouldn't look right. And you'll probably want a flush front so that the mantle can stay without a heatshield.

One insert to consider is the Jotul Winterport C 350. It has an arched top that will echo the arches in the house.
(broken link removed to http://www.jotul.us/content/products/ProductArticle____3118.aspx)

Or perhaps consider installing a freestanding Jotul F3CB with the short leg kit, inside the opening of the fireplace. It will again, echo the arches in the house.
(broken link removed to http://www.jotul.us/content/products/ProductArticle____3091.aspx)

Another alternative you might consider is putting in a quality gas insert. There are several arched models like the Excalibur U31 or the Quadrafire QVI30 that would look stunning in this setting.
http://www.excalibur-fire.com/Gas/Inserts/U31/index.php
(broken link removed to http://www.quadrafire.com/products/inserts/gasInsertDetail.asp?f=07450)

Sutter Home and Hearth sells Jotul and would be a good place to start.

 

[myrtie]

Thank you again! I tried to look inside and see if I could measure the flue opening but I haven't yet succeeded with that. I will try again. And I will check those stove models. I did look at a few at Rich's Home and Hearth. I think I mentioned that they suggested ( before getting measurements) a Lopi Answer and said that they can cut a surround that is arched and would fit behind the stones. (I looed online and found some mixed reviews about the Travis company, mostly responsiveness to customer's but also glass clouding etc. Many stoves seem to have their supporter and detractors. I did have a gas line put in ( the builder strongly suggested it) to the fireplace and it is capped so I could covert to gas( I think) but I am reluctant to do so. I just really like the smell and feel of wood heat. And I like simple! The person at Riches ( and I will talk to Sutter's also and look at their stoves) said that they could cut and cap the gas line so an insert could be put in to the fireplace. I like the idea of being less polluting and more efficient by having an insert rather than an open fireplace. And I definitely don't want to detract from the stonework of the fireplace by having something ugly put in. I wonder if I am just being stubborn about this wood fire thing. If the fireplace worked well I would probably compromise by just having a fire maybe once or twice a week in the evening and make up for the air pollution by my other conservation methods! Gas seems fake to me after growing up in Oregon, although I have seen some that look really good. I appreciate your comments and noticing design issues like having something echo the arches. The room is small and the fireplace opening is not that large especially after a new row of stones was put in to try to improve the draft issue. The original mason did this. I haven't bothered him with any more with the draft problem because I suspect he did his job correctly and he is more of an artist and mason than a scientist. He lives in Ballard and has done many many fireplaces. This is harder than I thought!

 

[myrtie]

I like that Jotul FC3B. Do you think that would look better than the lopi answer if it will fit? The other Jotul would cover up a lot of the stone work with the large black surround. It seems there are a lot more Jotul fans around!

 

[begreen]

Yes, that is the problem with most inserts, they have a large black surround. In many cases this looks great, but in your house, the arch is a dominant theme. Not to disparage the Lopi, but I think the 3CB would look a whole lot better in there. It's a nice little stove and it has a fire screen option if you want to burn an open fire.