BlazeKing Princess 29 Improper Install?

[UpNorth30]

Should I pay the dealer to redo their own work?

Mfg Manual says to carefully consider installing one in home especially if is a airtight home. Dealer did walkthrough of my home and inspected chimney inside and out before offering price and contract. Never warned me about neg air pressure or how to test for it. Never consulted on any potential draft issues. Made me feel like this this was a plug and play item.

Dealer installed stainless liner without insulation even though mfg manual highly recommends insulated liners.

After back draft smoked out my young family at 3am. I had to throw burning logs out window to clear air fast. I stopped using it that night, the first week Dec and called dealer and told them what happened. Had apt with installer to come back out but they were busy so they bumped apt back to TBD when they were available. No call no show 8 weeks until end Jan when I contacted the city inspector for a 2nd opinion. He changed the permit status to fail and sent a rework order to the dealer.

In the mean time I spent a whole weekend an a couple hundred dollars sealing attic door and any penetrations in the top floor ceiling including can light and plumbing vents. This significantly reduced the negative pressure of the home. We don't have power vents of any kind and the atmospheric furnace and water heater do not draw enough up the flue when off to be a big problem.

Dealer then got on it right away. The top guy came out and was nice. We identified the lack of liner insulation, a crack in the crown, and a hole in the masonry at the bottom of the chimney were contributing to cold temps in the chimney cooling off the smoke too fast. He ran a camera up the liner and any creosote ended half way up further proving that cold chimney was a problem. I did notice in early December that when running the unit at the highest temp the smoke and flue was only room temp at the top of the chimney. (my roof is easy to get on so I did test this carefully with my hand)

Now he wants $800 to wrap insulation around the existing liner. I can fix the rest. I protested why they didn't do it the first time and he said because with leaving the clay tiles it was a tight fit and hard work.

I feel this is unethical as the mfg manual says to insulate the liner. I pointed out the crown crack and odd hole at the bottom of the chimney masonry before the installer gave me a bid. At no point did they advise it might be a problem quote me to fix it. They had full knowledge of any and all site conditions before offering a contract. I was never given any consultation or option for liner insulation or masonry patches.

What do you guys think. Should they redo their work without charge?

 

[begreen]

Was this a bid job? Stove shops often don't offer insulating the liner to keep the quote competitive.

 

[UpNorth30]

Was this a bid job? Stove shops often don't offer insulating the liner to keep the quote competitive.

Bid job? Not really, they're the only dealer for 100 or more miles and I wanted a BK. Price was not an issue. They quoted 8k by email as a baseline before the home visit. I agreed to the $8300 contract after home visit without considering cheaper models or other vendors.

In my experience, good contractors in competitive situations will give the bare bones bid and then line item al a carte upgrades if they are concerned about looking too expensive. This still allows ethical consultation.

 

[all night moe]

How recent is the install?
How tall is your chimney?

If install is recent, and you have a proper chimney with the correct height requirement with good draft, and there's a creosol build up half way.....you are burning wet wood.

The uninsulated liner would not cause that much creosol in a short time.

 

[begreen]

I did notice in early December that when running the unit at the highest temp the smoke and flue was only room temp at the top of the chimney. (my roof is easy to get on so I did test this carefully with my hand).

It sounds like this is during very cold weather. What part of the country is this? Did the inspection say what phase or degree the creosote is at? (soot, flake, glaze) What is the ID of the chimney flue that the liner is in?

When was the firewood split and stacked for drying?

 

[UpNorth30]

It sounds like this is during very cold weather. What part of the country is this? Did the inspection say what phase or degree the creosote is at? (soot, flake, glaze) What is the ID of the chimney flue that the liner is in?

When was the firewood split and stacked for drying?

Flue is clay 8.5x13 with a couple hairline cracks here and there and some mortar missing on half of two joints.
This was 15F to 20F in the Great Lakes area.
I don't know what the creosote phase was. It only had a couple days worth of burning in it.

Firewood was oak. Split 2 years ago. Piled not stacked. When I test it the core of the pieces is about 16% moisture.

 

[UpNorth30]

How recent is the install?
How tall is your chimney?

If install is recent, and you have a proper chimney with the correct height requirement with good draft, and there's a creosol build up half way.....you are burning wet wood.

The uninsulated liner would not cause that much creosol in a short time.

Install was early November. Had about 5 complete days of burning in it before shut it down.
Chimney is 21 feet conservatively.
Wood is 16% on average in the core of it.

Draft is not good. That is the issue. The home's neg air pressure plus the cold smoke make for bad draft.

 

[begreen]

It's good that the negative pressure issues were addressed quickly. A 21' liner should draft reasonably well at 20º outside. Based on the wood description, I doubt that the creosote accumulation would be serious after 5 fires. Insulating the liner will help reduce accumulation, but the liner may still need a twice a year cleaning if the insert is used daily. Draft should be notably improved.

The 8 x 13 tiles can make it a tight squeeze for the liner. An oval or ovalized liner can the remedy for fitting the insulation. An alternative is the tiles are broken out to make it an easy shot for the round liner.

 

[UpNorth30]

It's good that the negative pressure issues were addressed quickly. A 21' liner should draft reasonably well at 20º outside. Based on the wood description, I doubt that the creosote accumulation would be serious after 5 fires. Insulating the liner will help reduce accumulation, but the liner may still need a twice a year cleaning if the insert is used daily. Draft should be notably improved.

The 8 x 13 tiles can make it a tight squeeze for the liner. An oval or ovalized liner can the remedy for fitting the insulation. An alternative is the tiles are broken out to make it an easy shot for the round liner.

Yes those were about the same conclusions we came to as well. Glad to get some more confirmation. Thank you for your thoughtful consideration.

However, the question is the ethics of the additional charge. These were not hidden conditions. BK says it recommends insulation. I was never consulted to have an option for insulation or no insulation. Why do I bear the burden of financial loss when I was never given any options or education.

They provided no education on risks.

I know what is normal in general contracting, this would not be tolerated. But wanted to pick the brains of wood burning guys to see what is standard in the industry.

 

[stoveliker]

Recommended is not a necessity (for code).
I would not buy a stove without reading the manual, i.e. I see it as my responsibility to know what I'm getting in to.

They did not do something that is against the necessities..

I don't think it is their obligation to educate and discuss options. I do think it's normal to ask for payment for extra,. optional services.

BUT, I do think it's poor customer treatment. Poor business to not explain, ask what the customer thinks about options,.and explain what other things could be done (and what those costs would be).

I would pay, and leave a bad review.

 

[UpNorth30]

Recommended is not a necessity (for code).
I would not buy a stove without reading the manual, i.e. I see it as my responsibility to know what I'm getting in to.

They did not do something that is against the necessities..

I don't think it is their obligation to educate and discuss options. I do think it's normal to ask for payment for extra,. optional services.

BUT, I do think it's poor customer treatment. Poor business to not explain, ask what the customer thinks about options,.and explain what other things could be done (and what those costs would be).

I would pay, and leave a bad review.

I really appreciate that insight. Thank you.

This is not to be argumentative but to help me to refine my discussions IRL or just think myself into being okay with paying.....

Your insight plus the signature line I have seen from Begreen, "The most important tool in the wood burning process and the largest variable is the one that is running the stove"

Implies that in the wood burning culture there is the expectation and enjoyment of some art, some knowhow, some tinkering, some self education. This culture has the assumption that wood burning products are not like typical consumer products where they better work perfectly after installation or it is a lemon. Even before someone allows installation of the item you feel this culture has the expectation the purchaser had better be reading the manual.

I've only had 2 indoor fires in my life. Both at cabins. Both just quickly reading the laminated couple sentences the proprietor left about using the wood insert. Both simple and uneventful.

So to me and most of the general public this purchase and install is viewed like an appliance purchase unless someone educates us in the sales cycle to not treat this like another home appliance.

I treated this like an appliance. Just like the many furnaces, water heaters, fridges, gas ranges, washer/dryer combos I have purchased and paid someone to install (mostly at rentals and at larger construction jobs). I would never expect to have to read all those manuals as part of due diligence. I expect the professional to know the product and know the job significantly better than me. Especially when using higher end brands. At the apartments and remodel jobsites I showed the installer the install site and if there were no hidden conditions the appliance better work as intended the first time or he fixes it on his own dime before I pay him the final payment.

What other product would someone be commonly expected to read a manual before signing a contract with the installing dealer? How would an inexperienced member of the general public know that a wood insert is not plug and play like other home appliances? What kind of future does this industry have when the learning curve is kept steep and the risk is kept high for curious novices? Especially those of us who have demanding jobs and young families and are not inclined to Autistically devour manuals before signing contracts?

 

[bigealta]

I wonder what percentage of installs have problems like these?
We see a lot here because this is a great place to sort out problems, but wonder what the overall real world percentage of installs have problematic burning, (not caused by burning poor wood, which seems to me to be the problem about 90% of the time or higher)?

 

[bigealta]

"Firewood was oak. Split 2 years ago. Piled not stacked. When I test it the core of the pieces is about 16% moisture"

What do you mean by "core".

 

[bigealta]

Wood stoves are more like European 60's sports cars. They need to have the carbs adjusted to run, and fine tuned to run well.
Install Set up, wood, draft adjustments, outdoor temps, chimney height, interior or ext. chimney, floor level in house, drafty or tight house, exhaust fans, furnace blowers , kitchen & bath fans, etc. all are factors in "tuning" each individual set up.

Way too much for anyone to be expected to know for sure. But like anything else knowledge is power.

Do you think the car dealers were teaching all the Alfa Romeo buyers how to tune the carbs before selling them to the buyers?

Nope.

But i do get your point, the installer should be better at discussing possible issues before installs as they are gambling a bit on your dime.

 

[stoveliker]

What other product would someone be commonly expected to read a manual before signing a contract with the installing dealer? How would an inexperienced member of the general public know that a wood insert is not plug and play like other home appliances? What kind of future does this industry have when the learning curve is kept steep and the risk is kept high for curious novices? Especially those of us who have demanding jobs and young families and are not inclined to Autistically devour manuals before signing contracts?

Your questions are well-posed, and I think that they reflect the learning curve that is more important for stoves than for a furnace In my.view this is because a stove has (generally) no active control, whereas a furnace does.
The operation of A stove depends on the (physics) : parameters that are present in flue, weather, home.
Operating something well in such a dependency requires knowledge, and it is good to acquire that before choosing a stove. But indeed this is likely not clear to many (see the many steep learning curves of folks with new stoves on this forum) - and a good installer should know this and provide a head start to a customer before decisions are made.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I really appreciate that insight. Thank you.

This is not to be argumentative but to help me to refine my discussions IRL or just think myself into being okay with paying.....

Your insight plus the signature line I have seen from Begreen, "The most important tool in the wood burning process and the largest variable is the one that is running the stove"

Implies that in the wood burning culture there is the expectation and enjoyment of some art, some knowhow, some tinkering, some self education. This culture has the assumption that wood burning products are not like typical consumer products where they better work perfectly after installation or it is a lemon. Even before someone allows installation of the item you feel this culture has the expectation the purchaser had better be reading the manual.

I've only had 2 indoor fires in my life. Both at cabins. Both just quickly reading the laminated couple sentences the proprietor left about using the wood insert. Both simple and uneventful.

So to me and most of the general public this purchase and install is viewed like an appliance purchase unless someone educates us in the sales cycle to not treat this like another home appliance.

I treated this like an appliance. Just like the many furnaces, water heaters, fridges, gas ranges, washer/dryer combos I have purchased and paid someone to install (mostly at rentals and at larger construction jobs). I would never expect to have to read all those manuals as part of due diligence. I expect the professional to know the product and know the job significantly better than me. Especially when using higher end brands. At the apartments and remodel jobsites I showed the installer the install site and if there were no hidden conditions the appliance better work as intended the first time or he fixes it on his own dime before I pay him the final payment.

What other product would someone be commonly expected to read a manual before signing a contract with the installing dealer? How would an inexperienced member of the general public know that a wood insert is not plug and play like other home appliances? What kind of future does this industry have when the learning curve is kept steep and the risk is kept high for curious novices? Especially those of us who have demanding jobs and young families and are not inclined to Autistically devour manuals before signing contracts?

It’s hard to know where to start with your post.

I think I can only add a little bit.


I consider a woodstove to be a big purchase. Not only is it a tool that can save a life, but it can also take one and should be carefully considered before purchasing.

To me, walking into a place and stating a specific product and setup that you wanted may have indicated you had experience. The dealer might have confused confidence with knowledge. The salesman may have been new and not known how to differentiate. And is it really his job to protect people from themselves?

a similar product that requires some experience to operate correctly is a vehicle. Everybody thinks they are a great driver, but are they really? How many life threatening mistakes do we see people make on the road every day? Given that, I’ve never been asked if I was qualified to drive a vehicle I was purchasing. Not once did anybody ever mention the safety related recalls that every manufacturer seems to have. I’ve seen air bags, seat belts, tires, etc all recalled. We don’t think of these when we buy a vehicle, yet we know that the airbags used in every vehicle have been recalled.

At the end of the day, it’s up to the consumer to educate themselves and know the risks. Otherwise we’d end up with boilerplate warnings on everything that the ingredients contained within could cause cancer.

 

[stoveliker]

I do think there's a difference with cars, as everyone has one, and was (self-) educated how to drive. There's even a test for that.

Stoves are comparatively far and few in between, so knowledge is not well spread, or as expected to be present imo. There is no written and no road test for stoves.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I sympathize with the frustrations in running a stove. Most of us here have been doing it for years, and occasionally get a load that behaves oddly. I think burning is more of an art than a science. I know I learn more about burning every year. Like driving, and every other skill, practice makes it easier.

But the guy at the stove shop isn’t going to give you a test on stove knowledge any more than the guy at the dodge dealer is going to ask you if you know how to drive. Looking at the others driving I could be convinced they really don’t know how to operate the vehicle they bought.

Pick something else… a mandolin food slicer… fireworks… chainsaws… birth control… table saws… snowblowers… the guy selling it isn’t going to be asking a lot of questions. I got my table saw at a really low price because the seller’s father lost some fingers using it. I don’t think it’s the seller’s responsibility to protect you from yourself.

 

[John Galt]

You had a contract with the seller and they fulfilled that contract. Now you want them to do additional work and install more expensive parts for free?