Biomax 60 - Blew Off Supply (Hot) Tubing Twice Since Startup

[Sunshinetreefrog]

Fired up biomax 60 this weekend...what a treat. Problem is, have blown my supply line off in two occasions at the boiler. Today, for example, it took approx 4 ft of the tubing off from the fitting inward. Have someone else doing the installation. Does anyone have any suggestions on what possibly might be going on. If would like to see pictures of setup, pls advise...

Appreciate any feedback,
Steve

 

[Nofossil]

Fired up biomax 60 this weekend...what a treat. Problem is, have blown my supply line off in two occasions at the boiler. Today, for example, it took approx 4 ft of the tubing off from the fitting inward. Have someone else doing the installation. Does anyone have any suggestions on what possibly might be going on. If would like to see pictures of setup, pls advise...

Appreciate any feedback,
Steve

Sounds a little terrifying. You have a working pressure relief? What sort of tubing are we talking about here?

 

[WoodNotOil]

If it is PEX, then the problem may be with the type of connection being used. Otherwise I agree that it is likely pressure. What is the pressure in the boiler running prior to blowing off?

 

[flyingcow]

I know i might get jumped on this statement.....but....get a heating contractor, one that is familiar with these type of set ups. Sounds like you might have a plumber. My opinion is that you don't install any kind of material other than black pipe or its equal. Also follow the boilers' manufactures' install layout.

 

[heaterman]

Fired up biomax 60 this weekend...what a treat. Problem is, have blown my supply line off in two occasions at the boiler. Today, for example, it took approx 4 ft of the tubing off from the fitting inward. Have someone else doing the installation. Does anyone have any suggestions on what possibly might be going on. If would like to see pictures of setup, pls advise...

Appreciate any feedback,
Steve

Questions:

What type of tube?

Is it directly connected to the boiler?

I'm not following your statement....."it took approx 4ft of the tubing off from the fitting inward" ?????

Do you have a functioning Pressure relief valve in the system?

How hot was the water when it blew?

Do you have adequate circulation and load to take the heat away from the boiler?

 

[Sunshinetreefrog]

1st event, psi relief worked as designed. Was blowing off psi every 1-2 min or so; mind you caught it after line blowoff. Also, installer came back & changed the flow valve at boiler. Today (Thurs), received call from neighbor that heard a bang noise from the barn. I was at work. Unsure temps, wife had just previously put wood in w/signals on monitor indicating needing "fuel", though had wood in boiler. This morning, prior to going to work, fan was working, little coals, & I threw some wood in it. Everything seemed to be functioning fine.

Tube is 32mm or approx 1". Paid good $ for this: called Microflex. The psi witnessed prior to blowoff has been 12-15. The tubing is underground from house, runs to the barn, connected to boiler. I'm unsure the blowoff temps today. I'm unsure if have adequate circulation & load to take heat away from boiler.

Thanks for support,

 

[Nofossil]

1st event, psi relief worked as designed. Was blowing off psi every 1-2 min or so; mind you caught it after line blowoff. Also, installer came back & changed the flow valve at boiler. Today (Thurs), received call from neighbor that heard a bang noise from the barn. I was at work. Unsure temps, wife had just previously put wood in w/signals on monitor indicating needing "fuel", though had wood in boiler. This morning, prior to going to work, fan was working, little coals, & I threw some wood in it. Everything seemed to be functioning fine.

Tube is 32mm or approx 1". Paid good $ for this: called Microflex. The psi witnessed prior to blowoff has been 12-15. The tubing is underground from house, runs to the barn, connected to boiler. I'm unsure the blowoff temps today. I'm unsure if have adequate circulation & load to take heat away from boiler.

Thanks for support,

It looks like you have a serious and potentially dangerous situation. There's no way the relief should EVER blow off. It's designed as a last resort to protect against failure of other components. Sounds like you don't have an effective or adequate expansion tank or some other plumbing issue. Get a qualified hydronic heating guy to look at it before something more expensive or dangerous blows up.

 

[Vtgent49]

I agree with Nofo re Relief valve is just warning you that something is wrong with the design. However, I'd say the 1" seperating from it's fitting at 15 lbs is a seperate issue, as it should take lots more. Probably a compatability issue between the fitting and tubing.

So, in conclusion, I think you have two things wrong, at least.

 

[Northwoodsman]

It sounds like you have a problem with the fitting/tubing connection. There are many different types/sizes/brands of Pex tubing and eventhough they may call themselves "1 inch" there can be quite a difference betwen the inside dimensions of each one of them.

I would measure the I.D. of the pex tubing and the O.D. of the barbs on the connector itself. Also, what type of clamping device are you using to crimp the tubing to the fittings?

Regarding the pressure relief valve going off, this is an indication that you have a problem (which could be very serious). A few causes of this valve going off are:

1.) Lack of water in the boiler itself which causes the circ. pump to cavitate/not pump water through the boiler and thus remove the heat it is generating.
2.) Incorrect size of Pex tubing going from the boiler to the storage/load location (if tubing is too small it will not allow all of the heat being generated in the boiler to be removed and thus high temp/pressure will result).
3.) The circ. pump on the boiler itself is too small/too large and thus the water is not flowing at the proper speed through the boiler (too small a pump creates too small a flow and too large a pump creates too fast a flow). I have an EKO40 and exerienced the too large a pump scenario.


NWM

 

[Sunshinetreefrog]

All, appreciate your feedback...

Think understand the issue. The lever in the front that opens / closes the damper in rear was not being used properly....by me. I had the lever pushed in, essentially closing the damper & overheating the upper chamber / water. The lever needs to be pulled out to allow the gasification to occur...which was not occurring.

To provide little more feedback regarding psi relief...I noticed the psi relief working after my line had all ready blown off. Unsure if worked prior to the line coming off b/c was not present.

Going to take all your notes & review again. Thank you all for your prompt support.

 

[heaterman]

All, appreciate your feedback...

Think understand the issue. The lever in the front that opens / closes the damper in rear was not being used properly....by me. I had the lever pushed in, essentially closing the damper & overheating the upper chamber / water. The lever needs to be pulled out to allow the gasification to occur...which was not occurring.

To provide little more feedback regarding psi relief...I noticed the psi relief working after my line had all ready blown off. Unsure if worked prior to the line coming off b/c was not present.

Going to take all your notes & review again. Thank you all for your prompt support.

That doesn't add up at all. If the tube was already blown off there should be no way the relief would ever see enough pressure to vent. If that's actually the case there just about has to be a major restriction in the boiler somewhere. An open 1" fitting has far more relief capacity than the relief valve does. Are you sure you have a pressure relief valve on the boiler or is it a T&P;valve such as found on a hot water heater.

 

[Sunshinetreefrog]

Actually...little more input to the first blowoff

We fired up boiler 4PM Sat. The bypass valve was not connected b/c he wanted to understand how to further connect. Next AM, was when 1st blowoff occurred. Shutdown boiler & 2-3 days later, the connections @ boiler changed significantly. After this, boiler was puring like a cat. Seemed fine until call from neighbor on 2nd occurrence.

Spk with contact Friday AM with folks from where purchased, explained situation, asked some questions about various things....and why posted previous note. Could still have a issue, I don't know. Enroute Sat AM to get a fitting to get back up. Learning as I go. This site is amazing for support...

Thanks,
(Pinckney, MI)

 

[taxidermist]

I went over and met Steve today, I am pretty sure all this was due to a air lock causing steam to build pressure and blow apart the pex tubing the fittings stayed and the pex overheated and blew a hole in it. It has been working well for 20 sum hrs now. I really like the biomax he has this thing has rubber door gaskets, built in draft inducer with a door switch that shuts the fan off and the inducer on when you open the door. It also has a window in the lower burn chamber.



Rob

 

[Dune]

Yeah. Sorry, but I think you need at least 4 feet of black iron pipe coming off the boiler before you think about attaching pex. Also, read the rest of the replies, something isn't adding up. Was the system purged? Do you have an air scoup? Is this a total DIY installation?

 

[taxidermist]

Yeah. Sorry, but I think you need at least 4 feet of black iron pipe coming off the boiler before you think about attaching pex. Also, read the rest of the replies, something isn't adding up. Was the system purged? Do you have an air scoup? Is this a total DIY installation?

He does have 4 ft pipe and it was a diy and plumber install. Steve has a taco air scoop but valve was closed.


Rob

 

[Sunshinetreefrog]

Rob,

Thank you so much for taking your valuable time & looking @ my boiler setup. Kinda funny, research for about a year what boiler going to purchase. Research what underground tubing to use. Get all this money wrapped up, then when get boiler, no install manuals...nothing to say install pump here, do this, do that, install this like this (NOTHING)...etc, just not right. Like the Heat Exclaimer fitting that releases O2...no idea what it did. With no install manual, no background info on boilers, etc., and for you to come out & bless so many things brings great comfort that things are OK. Still can't believe no installation manual. By the way, did do the installation over the boiler to protect the wiring tonight. I owe you brother; just say the word. Have I said yet...can't believe no installation manuals. Would not recommend product, no matter how great performs for me, to anyone until this available.

YouTheMan...Rob...

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Nofossil]

Rob,

Have I said yet...can't believe no installation manuals. Would not recommend product, no matter how great performs for me, to anyone until this available.

Steve

In all fairness, I suspect that the manufacturer assumes that these will be installed by experienced professionals. As you've seen, this is a far more complex process than hooking up a woodstove, and is beyond what the average homeowner could or should attempt.

To make matters worse, every installation is different: Indoor / outbuilding, primary-secondary / series / parallel / hybrid, zone valves / circulators, and so on. I don't think there's any reasonable way that the manufacturer could provide installation directions that would provide safe and compliant installations in each case.

I will agree that it would help to have a set of suggested approaches like Tarm has, but those are complex and can be difficult to understand and adapt to specific situations.

Bottom line: you need an experienced professional and/or a site like this that can help you learn what you need to know. Siegenthaler's book can't hurt, either.

 

[heaterman]

Rob,

Have I said yet...can't believe no installation manuals. Would not recommend product, no matter how great performs for me, to anyone until this available.

Steve

In all fairness, I suspect that the manufacturer assumes that these will be installed by experienced professionals. As you've seen, this is a far more complex process than hooking up a woodstove, and is beyond what the average homeowner could or should attempt.

To make matters worse, every installation is different: Indoor / outbuilding, primary-secondary / series / parallel / hybrid, zone valves / circulators, and so on. I don't think there's any reasonable way that the manufacturer could provide installation directions that would provide safe and compliant installations in each case.

I will agree that it would help to have a set of suggested approaches like Tarm has, but those are complex and can be difficult to understand and adapt to specific situations.

Bottom line: you need an experienced professional and/or a site like this that can help you learn what you need to know. Siegenthaler's book can't hurt, either.

Well said NoFossil. I keep waiting for the day someone launches their pressurized boiler and/or themselves into the adjacent county. When that happens, depending on how many people are killed/injured, it will likely bring down regulation to the point where it will be cost prohibitive to even think about getting one installed. I don't know if the Bio-Max is ASME approved but if it's not it is illegal to install it in Michigan anyhow. Someone here disagreed with me on that point but I suggest anyone who has doubts call the state mechanical division of code enforcement at 517-241-9325. Ask them about installation of residential boilers having to meet ASME boiler codes. If it's pressurized it has to be ASME rated.

It's really difficult for people to grasp the enormous power that can be unleashed in their basement if things go all the way wrong and they do from time to time due to improper installation or lack of maintenance. A pressure vessel is not a thing to mess with if you are not fully aware of what has to be done, along with what can or cannot be done regarding installation. Installation and piping is not rocket science but the competence level demanded is higher than 95% of homeowners I've run across or helped and even a good share of "plumbers" who happen to have a boiler license.

While we're on the subject..........I'd like to encourage everyone who owns and operates a sealed/pressurized boiler to be mindful of the maintenance required. You should be doing the following once a month:

Raise the handle on the pressure relief valve to check that it is not stuck and that it seals back up

Test the low water cutoff or flow switch to make sure it kills the draft in the event of water loss

Test the secondary high temperature limit to see that it too shuts down the draft

Test the operation of your over temperature dump zone to see that it shuts down the draft and opens the valve/turns on the circ to the zone.

In addition to those you should be doing these annually:

Clean the ashes from the inside of the boiler and wipe it down with an oily rag to prevent corrosion (if you shut down for the summer)

Check the water quality in your system. Typically most manufacturers want 7.5 to 8.5 PH but check your manual or tech service to be sure.


Those are just the basic ones that should never be ignored