Best configuration for heating apprx. 4000 sq. ft 1 1/2 story home

[Firedance1]

Good Afternoon !
Iam hoping that any/all of you with knowlege can help me with configuration of placement of pellet stove/inserts to heat our 4,000sq.ft.,1 1/2 story home. We would like to heat predominately with wood burning pellet heat source and simply not use the gas forced air furnace at all. Our home is not really an open floor plan, with the main level area's being kitchen/family room 22x22, with very large masonary & brick fireplace/hearth in south wall of room,directly north is the east facing entry, with staircase. Back door is directly in line with entry door on west of house. North of entry is formal living room and laundry room/bath. Down a 15' hallway is master bedroom and bath.
Second level contains 3 large bedrooms, 1 bath and walk in attic. The lower level is a walkout basement 24x 36 family room and bath, with double car garage (under kitchen/family room).
Would a pellet insert for the fireplace ( south end of home) and a free standing pellet stove in basement (north end of home), be sufficient ? Would heat reach the upper level bedrooms from the basement ? Would it be more economical to purchase a pellet furnace ?
We have a 4 yr. old 98% efficient forced air furnace (natural gas) but our heating bills run $465++ per month. And that is level pay.
Thermastat is set at 68*. The home was built in 1970. Have replaced only 1/2 of the 29 windows with energy efficient ones. Have always covered the outside with heavy gauge clear plastic, and put those 'shrinky dinky' things on the inside. All new insulated doors/garage doors. We have re-insulated outer walls, ceilings ( each floor) and attic. And still our heating costs seem outrageous.
Once we purchased and had installed our new energy efficient furnace,I was expecting to see a big difference in our bill, compared to the old one. About a month after the new installation the gas compan called and asked if we had recently purchased a new furnace, and when I said yes, they came and replaced our 'old' meter with a new one. Ive always been suspicious of that. lol

Each pellet stove dealer we've talked with has given us different suggestions on which would be the best configuration for the placement of the addition of pellet stoves. We have met with 2 Harman dealers, and 1 Quadra-Fire dealer, 1 St. Croix dealer.
Its a toss up as to which brand, we like both the Harman and the Quadra-Fire. Any suggestions ? Just recently, an acquaintance heard that we were looking for a pellet stove and suggested someone to us that was upgrading from a 4 year old Harman pf100 pellet furnace w/2000 cfm blower to a pellet boiler for his farm house and work shop. He has offered this at a very reasonable price.
Would this be the way to go, with perhaps a freestanding stove in the basement or an insert in the main level family room ?
I appreciate any suggestions you may have!

 

[KeithO]

You really need to evaluate your source of pellet fuel and do a cost comparison: Remember, your curret furnace is way more efficient than a pellet stove..98% vs 68-70% Right now, pellet fuel is pretty expensive in most places. This site has a calculator for comparing fuel prices. I think that whichever way you cut it, going to pellet fuel is going to be more expensive.

An alternative concept is to look at space heating. That would mean heating primary living areas with pellets or corn (if available) and letting the preiphary areas cool off (down to 55f range). One can fit recirculating pumps in the bathrooms to keep the hot water supply at about 90f which will ensure that none of the water lines ever freeze and you get hot water pretty quick. There will be a little price for that in NG but my total utility bill last winter was less than $75/month for both NG and Electricity.

It is a concept that has to fly with the family, because it is not the same as central heat. Its more like the "old days". "Manually" running the furnace in the morning (use a timer) takes the edge off and makes getting in the shower easier to deal with and the 1/2 hour doesn't add sgnificantly to the overall bill. Doing this makes it a lot more "palateable" with other members of the family. You use a lot less fuel simply because you are not heating the entire space to the same temperature. This concept may allow you to score compared to NG, but really one needs more reasonable prices for the pellets to begin with ($170/ton, not $250/ton). I'm waiting with my corn purchase because I believe that the corn price is going to drop close to $3/bushel (58lbs) and that will be much better than last years record prices.

 

[mtalea]

As I am not an expert on pellet stoves as many others here are. My advice would 1st be to mend the home of its heat loss.Even is you were to find a good configuration for pellet stoves it sounds like your home wont retain the heat from that either,hence money out the window so to speak. you might want to hire a professional inspection person,they can mask off the house and do tests to find where your loss is.Of course everything cost money,but to me that should be your 1st step...

About the meter.....talk to a third party and ask if there was any reason your company would have needed to change the meter....or I can ask a pro heating guy that will be on my project on monday.

If I can be of any help feel free to post or contact me .

Good luck
Matt

 

[Firedance1]

Keith thank you for your input. The hot water pump is something that we have been looking at this past week. Simply because the distance to two of the 4 bathrooms, the water must run for a long period before its hot. Even longer in the winter. We've done the 'heat tape' for the outside wall lines, to prevent freezing. Overall the hot water pump sounds like the way to go for more than one reason.

Our premium hardwood pellet prices are very reasonable here in MO., with 4 pellet manufacturer's, within my region. Per ton -50/40lb.bag price is $147.89 +tax, at the local lumber yard. And they will have a 15% off sale the 15th of October. I have not checked on bulk prices per ton. But would hope that might be a bit more inexpensive than bag pricing.

Although MO. corn doesn't even effect the wider market, news this past week is that corn prices will be coming down to about $2.50 to $3.00 a bushel here. Not sure that will effect you were you are.

Thank You for taking the time to respond to my post, it is much appreciated !

 

[Firedance1]

Matt, Thank You also for replying!

About the heat loss: the garage doors are new this year. Thinking they were a big culprit in the loss of heat. We've also put wood framed plexi-glass over the windows that have not yet been replaced, instead of the shrinky dinky and outside plastic, and that made a huge difference in the a/c this summer. Normal electric bill close to $485 per month, with 1/2 the windows replaced with new energy efficient and plexi on those that haven't been replaced, we've seen a dramatic savings-Electricity down to $136.00 on average per month. These changes would hopefully help with the cost of heating as well,... time will tell.
We have even put those styrofoam insulators in all of the recepticles throughout the house, to help cut the loss of heat or cooling.

If you wouldn't mind asking the pro heating guy, I would greatly appreciate that!
The Gas Co., told us the reason for replacement of our meter was due to the new furnance installation, and that the new energy efficient furnace required it to be 'precisely meter'. As if it wasn't already ? Then our daycare provider's husband who is retired from our Gas Co. said that that was 'hogwash' and that the Gas Co. has different meters that can be installed in-effect so as not to see a savings. ??? Not sure what to believe there.

 

[MrGriz]

Welcome to the hearth. I would agree with Keith in the fact that you may not save a great deal of money by switching to pellets. Especially when you factor in the cost of the stoves and installation, you may never see a payback.

When I was looking for my wood insert, I did look at pellet inserts also. I was sucked in by the dealer's claim that he cut his natural gas bill to a ridiculously small amount by switching to pellets. My eyes glazed over and I started 1/2 listening to him and 1/2 watching the flame in the display stove. It all sounded great until the light went on in my head and I asked how many tons of pellets he burned and at what cost. All of a sudden, most of that savings was spent on pellets instead of gas.

I'm not trying to talk you out of your plan. For a number of reasons, pellet heat can be a great alternative. I am just suggesting that you take a good look at the numbers before making the investment. Also, keep in mind that there is more work involved in heating with pellets than with NG. You do have to store them, move them and load the stoves. Granted, it's much less work than wood, but it is more involved than turning up the t-stat.

I would look at possibly spending the money you would have put into the stoves and fuel into replacing the rest of the windows and tightening up the rest of the house. I hate to talk anyone out of a pellet or wood stove, but sometimes it just doesn't make sense.

 

[MrGriz]

Man, sometimes I type slow.

 

[iceman]

personally, unless you just have to have one i would not get a pellet stove.... yet have a energy audit done... you are about to invest 4000+ in 2 pellet stoves and install/venting etc unless you do it yourselves it will probaby be higher i would invest that into insulating your house / or replacing windows.. or do half and half i stove and 2000 into the house
like mentioned before.. for you to have a 98% and 465 a month it seems high its your insulation
my house is 3000+ (almost 4) and my furnace is oil at 89-93 eff and a bad month is 140 gal =350 so you may not be that bad
however those pellet prices are insane for what we pay over here

 

[KeithO]

Here is where to find the calculator. OM web doesn't keep a very good site map....
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/

Here is how the calc looks like for my situation here in Michigan (you have to plug in your values).
**edit*** I guess I should qualify that I get all of my cordwood for the price of about 2 gals of gasoline for the chainsaw and some chain lube and of course, sweat equity.

$27.47 per Million BTU (Oil)of Heat delivered to home
$2,609.65 per year for normal home for Oil

$0.29 per Million BTU of (cordwood) Heat delivered to home
$27.55 per year for normal home for cordwood

$30.18 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home
$2,867.10 per year for normal home for Electric

$16.39 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home
$1,557.05 per year for normal home for Pellets

$13.13 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home
$1,247.35 per year for normal home for Natural Gas

$27.04 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home
$2,568.80 per year for normal home for LP (Propane) Gas

$10.03 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home
$952.85 per year for normal home for Coal

 

[webbie]

Site is too big to have a decent map - but I was thinking of perhaps two things....
1. A graphic map - like with the home page in the center and all around it the sections.
2. A "most popular" links or "how to get started" type of page, with the basics....

And I am going to put the full site search google thingy in soon.

As far as this thread - that is a good price for pellets and if corn is also available, you might want to think about a central furnace. That way, you could use whichever fuel was best in price, and distribute it through the house. One of our Gold sponsors has some furnace units, as well as others....
(broken link removed to http://www.americanenergysystems.com/magnum7500.cfm)
(broken link removed to http://www.americanenergysystems.com/stock/magnum7500-2.jpg)

Another alternative is to place one big pellet/corn stove in the house and spend some of the other money (for the second one) for even more conservation! Money spent in this way beats hauling tons of wood...pellets, or corn.

 

[KeithO]

Craig: It would help simply having an "Index" page that was like the index at the front of a reference book. It need not list every single article, but could at least cover the major items. It could be a straight text page with hyperlinks. Length of the page is immaterial, one could just keep scrolling down. Most of us still read books and know how to use an index.... Nothing Hi Tec required.

 

[begreen]

Firedance, what is your heating system type, forced hot air or hot water? If forced air, are the ducts insulated? What temp is the norm for the basement?(I'm assuming no crawlspace, is this correct? How thoroughly have you gone about sealing leaks in doors, windows, and the sill plate?

I agree with that the meter change explanation sounds fishy. Did you run a few seasons before the meter change with the new furnace? If yes, was there a dramatic change per year in therms consumed between the old and new meter or did it remain the same? How many therms per heating season are you averaging?

 

[elkimmeg]

I would look into your existing duct work and start finding air leaks and eliminate as many as possible. I would look at return locations and improve the design flow
I would duct seal every seam and joint in the duct work. and insulate it to greater than R5.0. As much as 36% heat loss can be attributed to transmissions losses ( leaks)

there are two approaches to lowering your fuel bill secondary zone heaters in this case pellet appliances and preventing the heat produced from escaping .


I agree the meter from the gas Co is BS

 

[Firedance1]

MrGriz, Thank You for your Welcome! Ive been reading each forum on this site for about a month now. Attempting to 'learn' as much as possible, prior to making the 'final' decision.

The cost of the 4 year old Harman PF100 w/ 2000cfm blower is $1,000.00 w/1 ton of pellets. The warranty has one year left.
The cost of the 3 year old Harman Advance is $1,600.00, so the overall cost of both units is a tremendous help. Both appear to be very well maintained. (Not that Iam a tech however)

I agree with you on spending the monies to replace the rest of the windows etc., however those windows left to replace are presently apart of a much bigger remodel project. So the best option was to wood frame them with security plexiglass that I found for a little of nothing. And the 1x3's used for the framing were not that expensive. That has proven at least to save on our summer a/c electric bill. and the rooms were much cooler and quieter too.

Two years ago I started the search for an 'alternative' to the high cost of heating our home. We used the fireplace for the first few years, and that went right up the flue. Although a nice fire gives a cozy and warm ambiance, it did nothing but suck what warm air was in the home out. So when I came upon the pellet stoves, I similarly had the eye glazing experience as you. Instead of a wood burning insert, I thought Wow! a cleaner source of heat. When I was younger cutting, splitting, hauling firewood was simply what was done 5-8 cord per winter, for a wood burning furnace and smaller stove. But Im older now, and don't want to work THAT hard. : ) There is that 't-stat' comment that wasn't lost!

I know that the price of natural gas will only continue to go up, and up, and up.....there has to be a better alternative.
I Thank You for your response. Learning from all of you in invaluable!

 

[Firedance1]

KeithO, Thank You for posting the calculator. What I found is not much difference between the cost of pellets/natural gas/ hardwood. What a dilemnia!

 

[Firedance1]

Iceman, Thank You for your input, I do appreciate the time each of you are taking to respond!

Yes, the price of pellet fuel has not gone up drastically here, something that Iam attributing to the fact that there are 4 plants within our area. When I read the posts of what pellet fuel is costing on the east coast, the lack of supply and quality, I can see why sales for stoves, etc... have gone way down.

I wonder ... would it be even economical for say, several people to go in together to buy a bulk load of pellets at wholesale and transport them ? Of course that brings up logistical issues of storing bulk etc... just a thought.

 

[begreen]

KeithO, Thank You for posting the calculator. What I found is not much difference between the cost of pellets/natural gas/ hardwood. What a dilemnia!

That's why I asked for info on the heating system. There can be a lot of losses in ducting depending on the installation. In a big house there can be long runs which often lose 1/2 the heat over the length of the run. With a pellet stove in the fireplace, most of the heat will go directly into the living space with much less heat loss. However, having an efficient gas stove in the same fireplace may be just as efficient and even cleaner burning.

 

[Firedance1]

Webmaster, Thank You also for your response!

Minutes before posting my question here, I had looked at the exact furnace you posted. (Found here on your site) I had gone to the Harman website to see if the PF100 could burn corn as well, and found that most all of the Harman stoves are either wood pellet or corn, not a combination of fuel types can be used in Harman's unlike the Quadra-Fire Stoves. Thats a drawback. The price of this particular furnace is not outrageous and may be an alternative, even with the PF100 costing so little in comparison. Over the long haul the ability to combine or change fuel types is important.

 

[MrGriz]

IMO, if saving money is the main goal, a wood stove or wood burning insert is almost always going to win over pellet or NG. Before I get jumped on for saying that (especially without a mile of statistics and studies to back it up) let me explain what I mean.

If we say for the sake of argument that the cost to install a wood, pellet or NG insert (we'll use an insert in this example just for kicks) is roughly equal, we are left with the cost of fuel. If you have to buy and pay a premium for wood, you may as well go with NG and hit the t-stat. As we've seen here, the same goes for pellets. However, if you're willing and able to put in the time and effort to scrounge for free or very low cost wood, you can tip the scales in your favor.

Of course, the trade off is the increased amount of work. Not only is wood more work to acquire and process, it seems that as the cost of the wood goes down the difficulty goes up. For example, for a premium price you can buy seasoned and split hardwood and have it delivered and stacked. Or, you can work it down to having a load of log length dropped on your property and get to work bucking, splitting, stacking, seasoning and moving. One step down the price scale puts you in your truck with your saw searching for the elusive free score (not to mention that freecycle and craig's list seriously compete with hearth.com for your web time).

So, if saving money is the sole motivator; wood is the way. Of course, pellets do green you up a bit and even I'll admit that the "blow torch behind the glass" provides a lot more ambiance than the furnace ;-) .

I don't know how relevant this is to this thread, but it seemed like a good place to throw in these two of my cents.

 

[Firedance1]

Moderator, Thank You also, for responding and let me apologize for being slow in responding to your questions.

Forced air gas furnace is what we have. Ducts are not insulated individually but insulation is surrounding the ducting. ( we insulated between the basement and first floor as we remodeled the basement) Drop ceiling, not sheetrock ceiling in the basement.

Between the first level and second, we insulated those almost 8 years ago-(with 4 boys the noise was unbelievable from upstairs). we also re-insulated the attic-blown in celulose about 15" thick.
The garage where the ducting runs under the kitchen and family room we put in 12" thick insulation, with no ceiling and did not replace the old garage doors until this spring. Even the outer concrete wall in the garage is insulated with 1 1/2" foam.

No, on the usage before the meter was replaced, one month after the installation of the new furnace, the Gas Co. called me and asked what we were doing differently ( I think they thought the meter reader had made a mistake) and I said, "well, we replaced the old furnace with a new 98% efficient one, and am looking forward to the savings." That is when I was told that we had to have the meter replaced, etc.. So in that one month, I really didn't see any savings because it was replaced in July.

Call me crazy, but we use both a gas and an electric hot water heater. In the summer months we use gas, because it is cheaper. Our electricity triples May 1 - Oct 1. And in the winter we use the electric water heater when the price of nat. gas goes up.

That was a good question about the therm usage, Im going to have to go back and look at the bills and find the answer to that question.

 

[Firedance1]

Pyro, Thank You for your response!

You have me thinking " we need to remove the ceilings and seal the ducting ?", what you say makes sense to me. But... but... with ALL of that insulation surrounding the ducting, that could be where the heat loss is occuring ? Trapped between the floors ? Finding its pathway out ?
( you can't hear my sigh of consternation here ) <smile>

First locations would be the garageand attic, no sheetrock there, and then basement.
What about the walls ? hmmmm maybe the interior and exterior walls where the ducting runs are located is where this culprit lies. ?

More questions to answer !

 

[Gooserider]

Some folks get upset at me when I say it, but I really don't see pellets as a good cost saver compared to NG or Oil (They do much better against LP or Electric) I think the way they are made is going to cause them to end up tracking fairly well with the prices of other heating sources.

I think cordwood is really the only way to save on heating bills, and then only if you put the heavy "sweat equity" into it - Cut and split doesn't offer much savings, so the only real way to save is to scrounge or purchase log-length and process it yourself - there is no such thing as low cost AND low effort heat...

I would tend to agree with the other posters that have suggested looking at tightening up your house as being a better payback than purchasing a pellet stove. From what you've described doing already, it sounds like you've hit a lot of the low-hanging fruit in that regard, I would suggest looking at Elk's suggestion of paying very close attention to your HVAC duct work, and then consider getting a "blower door" test done to see where you are still leaking.

Gooserider

 

[iceman]

Iceman, Thank You for your input, I do appreciate the time each of you are taking to respond!

Yes, the price of pellet fuel has not gone up drastically here, something that Iam attributing to the fact that there are 4 plants within our area. When I read the posts of what pellet fuel is costing on the east coast, the lack of supply and quality, I can see why sales for stoves, etc... have gone way down.

I wonder ... would it be even economical for say, several people to go in together to buy a bulk load of pellets at wholesale and transport them ? Of course that brings up logistical issues of storing bulk etc... just a thought.

omg!! i was unaware of the price you were going to pay for those stoves!! now i see where you are coming from!

 

[iceman]

is your house zoned out? (do you have thermostats located in different areas) or is it just one or 2?
i would say its one of 2 things
insulation / whehter it be windows or leaks on duct work
or maybe the duct wasn't placed right to promote optimal air flow
however as i said before 4000 and 465 a month isn't that bad
but it does seem about 50-60 higher
maybe you can turn the temp up on the actual furnace and adjust the blower speeds ... if thats possible

 

[begreen]

Forced air gas furnace is what we have. Ducts are not insulated individually but insulation is surrounding the ducting. ( we insulated between the basement and first floor as we remodeled the basement) Drop ceiling, not sheetrock ceiling in the basement.

Do you have a good portable thermometer? If not, pick a digital one up from Radio Shack for about $20. It should read accurately to at least 130 degrees. Then, on a cold day, run the heating system and put the probe into the heating register that is closest to the furnace. Measure the temp of the air coming out of that register. Now do the same with the register at the end of the longest run (try the duct coming through the garage). That will give you a measure of the heat loss in that duct run. If it is significant, than the duct needs direct insulation. It also is helpful to measure how long it takes for the duct run to come up to it's maximum temp. If it takes say 5 minutes to get to 90 degrees, then it is too cold, and possibly the joist cavity has outside air leaking into it at the end.

Between the first level and second, we insulated those almost 8 years ago-(with 4 boys the noise was unbelievable from upstairs). we also re-insulated the attic-blown in celulose about 15" thick.

This may actually work against you with the pellet stove asi it may prevent hot air from the 1st floor stove to rise above to the upstairs. That is, unless there is a large open staircase which allows a nice thermal loop to heat the upstairs.

No, on the usage before the meter was replaced, one month after the installation of the new furnace, the Gas Co. called me and asked what we were doing differently ( I think they thought the meter reader had made a mistake) and I said, "well, we replaced the old furnace with a new 98% efficient one, and am looking forward to the savings." That is when I was told that we had to have the meter replaced, etc.. So in that one month, I really didn't see any savings because it was replaced in July.

I'm curious about the furnace. I hadn't heard of a 98% gas furnace before this posting. What is the make and model?