Baseboard Heat - Will Pipes Freeze if use Wood Burning Insert to heat house?

[cpop]

Does anyone else have baseboard heat in their house? I am having a wood burning insert (Hampton HI300) installed in a few weeks. I am concerned if the furnace does not kick on and circulate hot water through the pipes that a pipe may freeze/burst in my house. Last year I had the thermostat upstairs (colonial house) turned down too much and a pipe froze; luckily it thawed out before it burst. Is there a way to circulate the water without having the gas furnace kick on. Kind of prevents the purpose of the wood burning insert if I have to run the furnace anyway.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[jqgs214]

Are your walls uninsulated where your pipes are run?? where did the pipe freeze?? upstairs?? set the t-stat at like 55 then it will; only kick on if it gets real cold. Is there a second zone upstairs or all one zone?? Hmm any thing else to ask. I dunno that should do it.

 

[elkimmeg]

What's the difference it take energy to circulate the water reducing your dependence to get off the energy grid. I suppose you could have a re-circulator installed

I would much rather antifreeze the system no additional energy needed and be done with it. If you froze them last year, then if it gets cold enough they will freeze again.

I learned a long time ago, to keep pipes within the heated envelope, not in garrison colonial overhangs TGhe other option is to re route the pipes, that are exposed to freezing.
within you envelope

I started a post addressing this very issue. Your post was the example of what can happen when a wood stove changes the heating dynamics in a house.

I might add that it also effect domestic hot and cold water pipes as well Remote areas of the home do not befit from the radiator/ vent in that room id f the Tstat does not cycle that area

 

[Eric Johnson]

I second the glycol idea. Be sure to use heating system glycol, not the stuff they put in car radiators. If you do it yourself, be sure to get advice on the proper mix, etc. from the supplier. Heating system glycol is expensive, but it's a lot cheaper than replacing burst pipes and baseboard elements. Plus, with baseboards, there's not a whole lot of water in the system to begin with. Like elk says, be done with it and forget about it.

 

[titan]

Go with a 40% mix of propylene-glycol to water.....that'll keep your pipes safe down to -18*celsius or 0*farenheit.

 

[babalu87]

How often does that anti-freeze need to be changed? I am on year 6 with mine and am wondering if its still ok?

 

[Eric Johnson]

It won't last forever, babs. Eventually it will go acidic and do bad things to your system. Your best bet is to take a sample to a plumbing & heating supply house and have them check it out.

 

[elkimmeg]

Most boilers are supplied with variable fill valves that add water into the system as liquid dissipates over time. This will dilute the Antifreeze.

But not to worry. At most heating supply co, they have litmus type paper to measure the degree of antifreeze solution. I remember being told to check it each year
and in 3 to 5 years you may need a recharge. My 3 zones is about 5 gallons per zone 40% is about 7 gallons in the entire system app. 2.25 gal per zone

 

[babalu87]

I think I'll just change it then, now to figure out how......................I would imagine I have to drain the entire system down and measure how much is in there to start with.

 

[Harley]

How would you "charge" the system with the anti-freeze? I would assume you would first have to make a guesstimate of the total gallons of water the system holds (boiler, plus # feet of pipe). Since there's no expansion tank like a car, there's no place to just dump the stuff in.

 

[Eric Johnson]

You got it, babs. Just drain your whole system into five gallon buckets, or whatever, then pour the appropriate amount of glycol into the system. The easiest way is to pour it into the top of the boiler, assuming that its capacity is at least 40 percent of the whole system. Take out the pressure relief valve or some other plug or component on the top of the boiler. If you have cast iron radiators, you can take one of the brass valves apart and pour it in there.

The pros just pump it in through the boiler drain. For that, you need either an old hand pump or something fancier that runs on electricity. Offhand, I'd say pouring the glycol into the 3/4-inch pressure relief valve tapping would be your best bet. Then just fill the system the rest of the way with the domestic water feed. Don't forget to vent everything out completely before you turn on the pumps. Then vent it again after it's run for a day or two.

 

[babalu87]

Easier than I thought, I suppose once I went down and looked at things it would be pretty straightforward. Like my dad always says, "rocket scientists are building rockets"

I'll use a pump and put the system back together that way, mix it all up in a 35 gallon barrel I have outside.
Thanks

 

[Eric Johnson]

No need to mix it in advance, but whatever floats yer boat.

 

[elkimmeg]

Off fishing for a while but I will try to explain m how I charge my system without the need to ,bleed it later

 

[pearsall]

I think this is an important issue, particularly for folks new to heating with wood. I suffered burst pipes in the back of my house because I kept the thermostat off. I had mine charged with antifreeze a few years back, but it had dissipated.
Of course, now that I burn wood so much, I have tons of cash around to pay the furnace guy to do it I'd rather do it myself though. . .

 

[Eric Johnson]

You shouldn't have to mix it in advance because you probably have a domestic water feed valve that allows you to fill your system by opening a valve, and should keep it full of water at the correct pressure with no effort on your part. Just drain it, pour in the right amount of antifreeze, and then let it fill the rest of the way with water through the regulator. Remember to close that valve before trying to drain it, or you won't have much luck doing so.

I'm anxious to see how elk can refill an empty hydronic heating system without having to vent it. Or is it just the secondary bleed that you're talking about, elk? Sometimes it's unnecessary because the air scoop can handle it, but it's always worth checking, IMO.

Pearsall makes a good point: If you have a leak in your system, such as a leaky pressure relief valve or a small leak that evaporates without you noticing it--or even a bigger leak that you know about--over time your glycol will become so diluted that it doesn't work anymore. Then, as noted, you can get a nasty surprise.

 

[elkimmeg]

After 4 prior freeze ups I got fed up Each time I got it thawed out before pipes burst that trick I will tell another time
My system is like many above each(3) Zone valve it a draw off faucet Like I said I wasn't fooling around this time I placed a ball valve above each Draw off

I then looked at the zone feeds. I made up a manifold with another ball valve on each feed so that I can work on the boiler and isolate a complete zone and shut it down or I can shut down all three Meaning if working on one zone The other 2 are completly shut down and will not require draining In that manifold I placed one outdoor type faucet

To drain down a zone I open the draw off above the zone valve Close down the ones I'm not working on attach a cut off gargen hose end ,
which I made up to interface with my air compressor and blow that zone completely out. Using 5 gallon buckets I calculate the water removed from the zone .
So now I have a pretty good idea what it contained Easy to pre mix 40 % or there abouts Now this is the trick that will save you painful bleeding the system.

I submerge an electric pump in the premixed solution in a gallon bucket. Attach a washer machine hose to the pump to the feed faucet . I take the drain down hose attached
above the v zone valve ant put the ind in the same 5 gallon bucket with the pump I plug in the pump and pump the solution in
Because it becomes a closed loop system I re circulate 5 extra minutes taking out all air I close the ball valves to that zone an there you have it completely charged without any air I repeat the process for each zone then open them all and place 3 hoses in the pump pale and close the system down just as an extra measure.

Really this is the best way to recharge a system and to bleed a system Just about fool proof

 

[Eric Johnson]

Slick. I've got isolation valves on all zones, so doing it your way wouldn't be too hard to set up.

 

[KeithO]

Chris:
When I lived in germany, the controller for the boiler system in the house I was in had a fairly simple strategy: They install an outside air thermometer. If the outside air temperature drops below a certain level (about 50f) the system kicks into "frost protection" mode and stays there until the temperature comes out of the frosty range. What this means is that the circulation pumps run continuously whether or not heat is called for by the master (home) thermostat. The controller then tracks the return water temperature. The circulation water temperature (going out to the radiators) is set by a "mixer valve" that proportionally mixes hot water from the storage tank with cooler return water until it gets a return water temperature that is in the "safe" range. This avoids overheating the home and depleting the heat stored in the storage tank.

If the home thermostat then calls for heat, the mixer valve shuts off the cool return water that is being mixed in and sends hot water out to the radiators until the home temperature has come back up. Then the system drops back into "frost protection mode" and the pumps stay running. I had this explained to me by a service technician after the original furnace controller died and he came out to install a new controller and program it.

Basically, any good boiler type controller should have a frost protection strategy built in. If your controller has no microprocessor or strategy or has no sensible frost protection strategy, you would best replace the controller. It is almost certainly one of the least expensive parts of the system.

Aren't the anti freeze mixtures toxic ? One way or another it all ends up back in the watershed and even if it takes a few years it will finally be in someones drinking water. Just like the road salt. Just like the salt we put in water softeners. Not to mention the stuff that gets sold to clean baths and showers etc....

Does anyone else have baseboard heat in their house? I am having a wood burning insert (Hampton HI300) installed in a few weeks. I am concerned if the furnace does not kick on and circulate hot water through the pipes that a pipe may freeze/burst in my house. Last year I had the thermostat upstairs (colonial house) turned down too much and a pipe froze; luckily it thawed out before it burst. Is there a way to circulate the water without having the gas furnace kick on. Kind of prevents the purpose of the wood burning insert if I have to run the furnace anyway.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Eric Johnson]

Heating system antifreeze is listed as non-toxic. Plus, you don't want toxic chemicals (auto antifreeze) connected in any way to your domestic water system, since if it ever backed up, your family would be drinking glycol. And that's something you probably want to avoid if at all possible.

Having said that, I spilled some on the ground last summer and it killed the grass for about two weeks. So while it may be "non-toxic" for human consumption, it's not exactly benign. At least not where grass is concerned.

Plain water is better if you can get away with it. It transfers heat better and won't turn on you and eat up your components and piping. Plus, you can drain it with impunity. For guys like me who just love to continually make upgrades, plain water works a whole lot better.

 

[elkimmeg]

RV antifreeze is used because it is less toxic and can be used in the water system in the RV flushed out each spring and clean water added..


Wait there is another way. Keith you reminded me of this. There are freeze alarms that monitor temps in pipes and can even dial you remotely
and tell you that the pipes are in the danger zone. I think anti freeze is still a simpler cost effective solution that many DIYers can handle.

 

[Harley]

I submerge an electric pump in the premixed solution in a gallon bucket. Attach a washer machine hose to the pump to the feed faucet . I take the drain down hose attached
above the v zone valve ant put the ind in the same 5 gallon bucket with the pump I plug in the pump and pump the solution in
Because it becomes a closed loop system I re circulate 5 extra minutes taking out all air I close the ball valves to that zone an there you have it completely charged without any air I repeat the process for each zone then open them all and place 3 hoses in the pump pale and close the system down just as an extra measure.

Really this is the best way to recharge a system and to bleed a system Just about fool proof

AHA.... Now I got it! That is slick, Elk - that makes it easy - the part I wasn't getting earlier was how to get the mix into the system (must be a little slow on the uptake here sometimes).

 

[TedNH]

This is all assuming that the baseboards are on a closed loop off the boiler from the hot water for showers/taps?

 

[elkimmeg]

This is all assuming that the baseboards are on a closed loop off the boiler from the hot water for showers/taps?

Ted every tankless boiler used for heat and hot water has completely separate systems even a separate heating coil for both
now if something happened the coils would have to be cracked and for all intent and purposes the boiler is a total.
Chances are one would see the puddle on the floor first before any mixing could occur. Not a likely occcurance

 

[titan]

Grain alcohol is the least toxic antifreeze I've worked with;I've used it in the closed field loops for geothermal heat pumps.One manufacturer calls it "Environol" and claims it's drinkable...I even heard a story of a HVAC contractor who put his stuff in lockup because some of his crew had taken a shine to the stuff.I wouldn't want a crew of goons whacked-out on ethanol installing a heat pump in my place.