Applied Ceramics and Condar cat's in a Jotul Firelight 12

[Ashful]

A short history with my Jotul Firelight 12:

1. Purchased all three stoves with what appears to be original OEM Jotul cat's in place. They were all in very good cosmetic shape, due to the previous owners not using stoves on a frequent basis, but probably each beyond 15 years old.
2. Replaced cat's in the two stoves I use (third stove is a spare) with Condar Steelcat's. The Steelcat was trouble from day 1, being far too reactive initially, and then distorting and plugging (probably as a result of being too reactive).
3. Condar acknowledged trouble from many others using Steelcats in my stove (and other similar designs), and suggested I switch back to traditional ceramic. I pointed out the potential problem of the "expanding gasket" they advertise, installed between the ceramic element and the steel can surrounding the cat. Their tech (Charlie?) stated it is not an expanding gasket, and will not cause the can to expand, or damage to the refractory chamber into which my cat is installed.
4. Installed two Condar ceramic cat's for the last month of last season. They ran beautifully, but inspection this summer revealed that the gasket/can did expand and damage the refractory components in both of the stoves where I was running them. Some of these components were brand new, cost to me ~ $1000 to repair.

So, now I'm out shopping for a new cat. I see Applied Ceramics offers the ACI-20C, a similar ceramic element in steel can construction with insulating gasket between, used by both Jotul OEM and Condar. What I can't figure out is whether it will expand when heated, the way the Condar gasket does. Anyone have experience with the canned ceramic cat's from Applied Ceramics?

 

[jharkin]

This makes me wonder what I will find when I open up my VC for hte annual cleaning...


(For everyone else, Joful and I have had the same experiences with condar steel and both moved to condar ceramic last season. DIfferent stove brans but both downdraft CATs with refractory chambers)

 

[BKVP]

A short history with my Jotul Firelight 12:

1. Purchased all three stoves with what appears to be original OEM Jotul cat's in place. They were all in very good cosmetic shape, due to the previous owners not using stoves on a frequent basis, but probably each beyond 15 years old.
2. Replaced cat's in the two stoves I use (third stove is a spare) with Condar Steelcat's. The Steelcat was trouble from day 1, being far too reactive initially, and then distorting and plugging (probably as a result of being too reactive).
3. Condar acknowledged trouble from many others using Steelcats in my stove (and other similar designs), and suggested I switch back to traditional ceramic. I pointed out the potential problem of the "expanding gasket" they advertise, installed between the ceramic element and the steel can surrounding the cat. Their tech (Charlie?) stated it is not an expanding gasket, and will not cause the can to expand, or damage to the refractory chamber into which my cat is installed.
4. Installed two Condar ceramic cat's for the last month of last season. They ran beautifully, but inspection this summer revealed that the gasket/can did expand and damage the refractory components in both of the stoves where I was running them. Some of these components were brand new, cost to me ~ $1000 to repair.

So, now I'm out shopping for a new cat. I see Applied Ceramics offers the ACI-20C, a similar ceramic element in steel can construction with insulating gasket between, used by both Jotul OEM and Condar. What I can't figure out is whether it will expand when heated, the way the Condar gasket does. Anyone have experience with the canned ceramic cat's from Applied Ceramics?

Interam gasket material, used by all catalytic wood stove manufacturers, is designed to expand specifically to provide a tight seal. Anyone that says that is does not expand needs to review the material data sheet.

As for the stainless combustor you tried, they were made using a product from a Texas based manufacturer with diesel foil. Diesel foil does not tolerate the high temps of wood stove systems very well at all. Stove manufacturers have avoided these for the past few years.

There is a company in New England selling a combustor made with stainless steel subsrate, called DuraFoil. Durafoil will take anything you can throw at it in a wood stove. The wash coat and precious metals adhesion should not be an issue so long as the stove is not over fired.

The AC combustor with the metal "can" around it will also then have another interam gasket to help seal it in your appliance. And yes, it will expand.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks, guys.

BKVP: Theoretical question, but should we not be able to buy a ceramic element without a metal can? I know the metal can is there to keep it together, after fracture due to flame or steam impingement, but in a downdraft cat stove with manual bypass damper, flame and steam impingement are essentially non-issues.

I would love to know who made these Jotul OEM cat's, as they look great after 15 - 20 years of use. Unfortunately, Applied Ceramics is now the sourced cat when I look up any Jotul parts list online.

 

[Ashful]

BTW... I can say I'm not far off from the cost of having purchased two BK Ashfords, had they been available two years ago. Since I could not wait for the late release, and spent the time and effort to rebuild and install my F12's, I will probably live with these for a while. They're not an awful stove, albeit never hitting quite the same burn times as a BK.

However, I'm very interested to hear what plans BK may have in the future, for more cosmetically appealing stoves. I would assume the Ashford has been a windfall success, based on all the positive feedback I have seen here. Perhaps so much that BK is going to put more effort into more stoves of similar (or even better) cosmetic appeal?

 

[begreen]

The Ashford is a good looking stove close up too. There are lots of nice details. The castings, latch and ashcan assembly are first class.

 

[BKVP]

Applied Ceramics made all the ceramic substrates. They make them for Condar, SudChemie (now Clariant and formerly Corning). Each of the companies uses their own propreitary mix for precious materials.

So your original combustor substrate, if made in the USA, was made by Applied Ceramics. Could have been coorderite or mullite.

They come in blocks, which are cut to size, gaskets applied and then canned. Buying just blocks could be a big headache.

 

[Woody Stover]

they were made using a product from a Texas based manufacturer with diesel foil. Diesel foil does not tolerate the high temps of wood stove systems very well at all. There is a company in New England selling a combustor made with stainless steel subsrate, called DuraFoil. Durafoil will take anything you can throw at it in a wood stove. The wash coat and precious metals adhesion should not be an issue so long as the stove is not over fired.

I've had pretty good luck with the diesel foil cats in my Woodstocks. They shrank slightly, but that was about it. In my SIL's Fireview and other SIL's Dutchwest 2460, which both had air leaks and ran hot, it was a different story. The diesel foil in the Fireview shriveled up to the point where it was falling out of the frame. I never heard about the one in the 2460 until a couple years later, when I had her stove open and said 'Hey, I had a steel cat in here!' She had gone behind my back and ran to her old sweep for a replacement cat. Nice of her to keep me in the loop. See what I'm dealing with here?
I'm assuming Woodstock is now using the Durafoil...any other stove makers? BK?

Applied Ceramics made all the ceramic substrates. They make them for Condar, SudChemie (now Clariant and formerly Corning). Each of the companies uses their own propreitary mix for precious materials.

Does Applied Ceramics 'apply' the wash coats? This one I got for the Buck 91, looks like the metals walked through there on stilts.

 

[BKVP]

Applied also does their own washcoats, yes.

Yes both Tom and we use Durafoil.

Last I heard Buck purchased their cats from ACI.

All the ceramic cats work just fine IF the stove is properly designed.

 

[Woody Stover]

acknowledged trouble from many others using Steelcats in my stove (and other similar designs), and suggested I switch back to traditional ceramic.

Long shot, but I wonder if one of the BK or Woodstock Durafoils would fit?

 

[Ashful]

4" x 7" x 2" thick brick, typically marketed as 3-7/8" x 6-7/8".

 

[BKVP]

4" x 7" x 2" thick brick, typically marketed as 3-7/8" x 6-7/8".

I can check but is does not sound correct for our versions.

It will be Monday before I get back to WA factory.

Chris

 

[NHcpa]

I purchased a Clear Skies cat a few years back and am still using today. I am not endorsing, but I have had no problems with it. Looks like a ceramic brillo pad.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks BKVP, but don't sweat it! I'm putting a pair of the ACI's on order tonight.

 

[BKVP]

I purchased a Clear Skies cat a few years back and am still using today. I am not endorsing, but I have had no problems with it. Looks like a ceramic brillow pad.View attachment 138941

That is a reticulated foam combustor. Looks to be in great shape. Tons of surface area and later in life you can use it as a luffa!

The manufacturing process is amazing. We haven't had a lot experience with them, but if it works for you...super!

 

[Woody Stover]

I purchased a Clear Skies cat

Caveat emptor; I ordered two of them a few years ago, but they never sent the second one, despite multiple emails. Never could get through on the phone.

 

[NHcpa]

Caveat emptor; I ordered two of them a few years ago, but they never sent the second one, despite multiple calls.

You won't believe me, but I ordered 1 and received it. A week later, I received another and called them to return it since I didn't want a double bill. I never got through on the phone and they never billed for the second. True story!

 

[NHcpa]

After a little research before buying this type of cat, my understanding is that they manufactured this process to meet the demand for cats to be installed in fireplaces. not sure if true or not, but this what I recall. As I stated, it has worked for me and I think at the time, they were less than half price of a regular cat.

 

[Arlo.]

I ordered what I thought was a original old new stock Jotul CAT. Turned out to be a firecat/applied cermics. I read as much as I could, turns out the gasket is in fact an expandable. The gold flakes is what raised my attention and concern. I pushed a piece out with a very small putty knife, put it in the my broiler with a piece of tinfoil with a teaspoon of water below it (not touching). After 30 minutes it expanded. Not like a marshmellow, but it did and when layered, I would imagine it would puff up and bust the wall out of the refractory chamber in our Model 12's.

My half a$$ solution: I pushed all of the gasket out with a small 1" putty knife. Took my time, just rocked it back and forth pushing it our a little at a time. Once you get one side out, the rest comes out a little easier. After it was all out I placed the ceramic CAT on a piece of wax paper, slapped on a healthy covering (like your doing stucco) of 3000 degree refractory cement. Then I took the original steel sleave and pushed it down over the CAT and refractory cement (like a cookie cutter). Took the putty knife, trimmed off the excess, pushed a little down to clean up the lips and let it dry. Bammo, fits perfectly in the refractory chamber. I also had to fabricate a wedge for CAT shelf. Worked out well as well using some refractory board I picked up on line for 20 bucks. Here is a pic of the cat filled with refractory cement.

 

[Arlo.]

Oh by the way, here is the CAT I brought thinking it was an original Jotul, which indeed had the expanding gasket in it.....looks just like the ACI-20C stock photo.

figured you might want a heads up before pulling the trigger.

 

[BKVP]

I could be wrong but if that cat gets 1600+ that 3000 degree cement will crumble. Let me know please.

 

[Arlo.]

I could be wrong but if that cat gets 1600+ that 3000 degree cement will crumble. Let me know please.

I hope not! The cement says its rated to 3000, so I guess its an experiment. From what I read, the CAT maxs out around 2300. Theoretically I should be ok? I have the original CAT which is still in working order, just rode hard if this experiment eats the bed. I will post results after burning for a while.

 

[Arlo.]

here is the stuff I used: http://www.pexuniverse.com/utility-30-1030-do-all-plus-furnace-cement-1-2-gal

 

[BKVP]

Ceramic combustors definitely have a peak temperature they can hit (1900-2100). Sustained highs will cause thermal degradation. Early stove designs were the issue because the Combustor was an afterthought. Try to pass the tests and if not, shove in a combustor. Sort of the magic pill.

The stove design has to be built around the Combustor, integrating known Combustor hazards into the design of the appliance can provide better protection for the combustor.

There are new combustor equipped stoves coming to market and a few have already not observed the basic hazards identified over the past 20 years. Just an example is setting the combustor in a position such that when the by pass is opened, the rear of the combustor sits in the flame path.

The Catalytic Hearth Coalition has a number of manufacturers that meet occasionally (phone or in person) and discuss many of the learned aspects over the years. And guess what? These are not integrating hazards into their products.

What is best for the industry is to share basic ideas and understandings so as to avoid repeating mistakes. I have made over a dozen presentations to retailers in the past twelve months on how to look over (review) a combustor equipped stove and decide if known hazards have been taken into consideration.

 

[BKVP]

To clarify, each of those presentations had between 25-300 retailers in attendance.