And heeeeeer's the oil prebuy price!

[Sheepdog]

$5.04/gal. in Southern Maine. I just got my prebuy number from my oil supplier, thank God I am heating with wood this year! Here are the facts and a question. I have been dealing with this company for 11 years for my oil and propane (for the kitchen stove, don't like to cook on electric), I have been using them because they are known for giving their customers a fair deal and will not take advantage of them. Mind you, they are never the cheapest one in town for oil, but the service and type of company they are is worth the extra penny or two. Things are changing this year. For years it has been, sign a contract for a set number of gallons based on your usage history, either prepay up front for a set price per gallon, or make ten equal payments for about 5-7 cents more per gallon. This year you pay .35 cents per gallon up front, then 4.69/gallon either when you have it delivered, or in 10 payments. No incentive to pay upfront. Also, I mentioned to them that I will be suplementing with wood this year and won't need to buy as much oil as I have in the past. Well, the game has changed here as well. You used to be able to dictate to them how many gallons you wanted to buy in price protection, not this year. They will tell you how many gallons they will offer, based on the average of the past two years. If you want to drop it a LITTLE, ok maybe, but not what I would like to do. I use about 800 gallons for the heating season and about 400 gallons for domestic hot water for the full year. So I would like to implement some shorter showers and cut that back to about 300 gallons for the year, and only price protect the 300 gallons, as I will be burning 24/7 and do not intend to use any or very little oil for heat. However, they will not accomodate this type of buy. So, I think I will take my chances and buy on my own at cash price. Here is the burning question (pun intended)... I need to cut back on the oil for DHW, I just set the mixing valve on the boiler (DHW direct fire system) to the lowest setting which it says is 120 degrees, the water at the tap is still SCALDING hot. How to I cut the oil usage? What is the best way to work this system? I thought about installing an electric hot water heater to pre-warm the water. I have a 3 year price lock contract with my electric producer for hydro power at 11.5 cents/ KWH. This will cut the oil usage and still keep the oil system working a bit, to keep it in shape should we need it. I could shut down the oil system completely and switch to electric only, but this will leave us with no back up heat system, and I imagine letting a system sit like that isn't good for it. I have also thought about a glycol-solar hot water pre-heater system, but these are really expensive, and will only really be efficient in the summer months. There are some really smart folks on this forum, so I am wondering what other options you can think of to either reduce or eliminate the oil for DHW. I appreciate your thoughts!

-Sheepdog

 

[Hogwildz]

WHy not keep the oil heat for back up, and dump the oil hot water with a electric hot water heater?
I have a Whirlpool smart water heater. I set it at 115 when I got it. Has a knob that you turn on the top control box. Can go much lower also.
Lifetime warranty, but I hold lil faith in most lifetime warranties.

 

[cjpetey]

what about a time clock on the indirct hot water heater so it doesn't come on during the day when no one is home? Do you have a maintaining control on the boiler or a cold start? You could install a tekmar out door rest control that will save 10% to 30% on your oil

 

[Thomask9590]

You can have your burner service person put a smaller fuel feeding tip into your boiler. It will cut back on consumption. Not sure how much though?

 

[Jags]

I would seriously consider eliminating the DHW loop from your boiler and going electric. I find it very hard to believe that heating 20 gals of water with electric is even CLOSE to the same 20 gals using $5.00 heating oil. You can always cycle the oil burner once in awhile to keep things in working order and only use the oil for backup home heating purposes. That would eliminate your 300-400 oil consumption.

You would have to increase your electric bill by $125 per month to become equal to even 300 gal. of oil usage.

300 gal. x $5.00 = $1500/12 = $125

 

[BrotherBart]

10-4 on the electric water heater. We have an energy star 50 gallon one in our all electric house. In the winter or when the A/C isn't running our electric bill runs $80 to $90 a month max at 14 cents a KWH.

With the invalid wife's big TV and sat dish running 24 hours a day, three refrigerators and a server farm and comm rack in the basement.

Only two of us though.

 

[RedRanger]

10-4 on the electric water heater. We have an energy star 50 gallon one in our all electric house. In the winter or when the A/C isn't running our electric bill runs $80 to $90 a month max at 14 cents a KWH.

With the invalid wife's big TV and sat dish running 24 hours a day, three refrigerators and a server farm and comm rack in the basement.

Only two of us though.

Yep BB you are right on with this. And buying an energy star appliance is key in today`s market. Just for what it`s worth here. we have in the past 18 months, bought a energy star-freezer, washer, and dishwasher- and our electric bill has gone from $130 per month to $96 per month.

Cept for the month that my daughter moved back. Those long showers are brutal on the elec. bill :coolmad:

 

[brooktrout]

WHy not keep the oil heat for back up, and dump the oil hot water with a electric hot water heater?
I have a Whirlpool smart water heater. I set it at 115 when I got it. Has a knob that you turn on the top control box. Can go much lower also.
Lifetime warranty, but I hold lil faith in most lifetime warranties.

I have the same water heater- bought it in 2001 at Lowe's. The control panel melted last year, so I called the number on the side of the tank- I wasn't expecting much. Man, was I surprised! No questions asked (well, they did need the model and serial number!), not even a receipt or anything. New control panel arrived at my door overnite priority! I asked them while I was on the phone about the heating elements and other parts, and if hard water voided the warranty, etc. She said everything is covered, no matter what. Didn't even need to be "professionaly installed".

 

[begreen]

Let's hope the steady trend of budget cutting in this particular EPA dept halts and reverses asap. The Energy Star program is one of the few really effective conservation programs out there.

 

[savageactor7]

My neighbor has an 'on demand' water heater now and says the savings in LP gas was well worth the switch. It's a family of 4 and never a shortage of hot water either...I'm thinking you'll save a bundle switching over and just use the oil furnace as a back up.

 

[Backroads]

+1 for the Electric water heater. Three of us and my wife takes long showers. Plus old tv, elec stove and she does a ton of laundry and we stay around $100-120 a month. Definately less than oil IMHO.

 

[Corie]

Just another take on the hot water thing......since you're already got the propane hook-up you could always consider a tankless propane unit as well. I like the energy saving part because you only heat hot water when you need it, but it's also nice because you never run out in the shower!!

 

[brider]

This is a great topic. After reading it yesterday, I couldn't believe that I hadn't thought of an electric HW heater before. If I heat with wood this winter (my intent), and switch to elec HW, then I'm officially off the fuel oil grid!

So last night I called Sears, then called my neighbor who installed my current oil-fired system (which has a 50-gal HW storage tank), and he proceeded to list the reasons why I SHOULD NOT go to elec HW. He mentioned the actual cost (using oil) of heating Domestic HW during the summer months, vs elec HW at our southern CT high kW rates, and said the oil would cost less, or at least the payback would be a LOOONG time, plus the boiler shouldn't stay dormant for long periods because of corrosion, gaskets and seals contracting and deteriorating, etc.

If I had a good feel for how much I actually spend heating DHW with oil, I would have felt better pursuing my point. But his arguements seemed valid; although, if I figure an additional $100/mo elec to heat water, that's the same as 22 gal/mo using oil @ $4.50/gal.

I guess I'll use that as a baseline, see how many gals I use per month this summer, then make a decision.

 

[mayhem]

I'm hoping to make the switch to electric from oil this summer...at the current price of oil (last fillup was $4.59/gal) I figure I'm spending an easy$1200-1400 a year for DHW. Question for the general group though, tank heater or go tankless? We're a family of three, me, the wife and a 5 year old girl. We have an energy star dishwasher and other appliances (though I think my GE fridge has never operated correctly). I'm a daily shower guy, wife and kid are every other day or so...dishes and clothes get done more or less daily or as necessary.

 

[Turbozcs2003]

This is a great topic. After reading it yesterday, I couldn't believe that I hadn't thought of an electric HW heater before. If I heat with wood this winter (my intent), and switch to elec HW, then I'm officially off the fuel oil grid!

So last night I called Sears, then called my neighbor who installed my current oil-fired system (which has a 50-gal HW storage tank), and he proceeded to list the reasons why I SHOULD NOT go to elec HW. He mentioned the actual cost (using oil) of heating Domestic HW during the summer months, vs elec HW at our southern CT high kW rates, and said the oil would cost less, or at least the payback would be a LOOONG time, plus the boiler shouldn't stay dormant for long periods because of corrosion, gaskets and seals contracting and deteriorating, etc.

If I had a good feel for how much I actually spend heating DHW with oil, I would have felt better pursuing my point. But his arguements seemed valid; although, if I figure an additional $100/mo elec to heat water, that's the same as 22 gal/mo using oil @ $4.50/gal.

I guess I'll use that as a baseline, see how many gals I use per month this summer, then make a decision.

I have oil boiler with baseboard. The unit a Peerless with Becket gun had internal coil for DHW. We have hard city water and last year the coil did not deliver the quantity needed due to plating of the magnesium internally. I had 2 choices, replace the coil at 800$ or put in a indirect. I choose the indirect, bought a 53 gallon Crown megastor. Lifetime warranty. Ran a dedicated pump/zone and tapped off the old coil to feed the Megastor. Cost me about 1900$ all said and done. Now I turn the aquastat low limit down to 120 so the boiler doesnt run too much in the summer. I used to use about 1 gallon a day with the old coil for DHW. We had a colder winter so hard for me to say how much I save but the furnace is no longer cycling on/off to heat the DHW via the coil. I wouldnt put an electric hot water heater in since they probably wont last more than 10 years. All your savings would go out the window.

 

[Jags]

if I figure an additional $100/mo elec to heat water, that's the same as 22 gal/mo using oil @ $4.50/gal.

I have a new electric water heat, electric clothes dryer, electric stove, electric oven, 1 fridge, 1 upright freezer and an industrial 3 x 3 x 7 ft. stainless steel beer fridge and air conditioners (window shakers). My electric bill is usually lower than $120 a month (not sure of elec. rate, but it is not cheap around here). Unless you have unworldly high electric rates, I doubt that you can USE $100 worth of hot water in an electric water heater per month.

Oh, let me state this. 3 adults ( 1 -19yr old daughter) and a little baby. Lots of laundry, long showers, and freekin' light switches that don't get turned off.

 

[brider]

I also have an indirect storage tank feeding off the boiler's internal coil. The question again is: How much oil do you use to heat DHW?

If you figured a gallon a day at $4.50/gal, that's $135/mo for DHW. Even with your indirect tank, you're still using/heating at the same rate.

I have a hard time believing my DHW needs would cost near that using elec, but I'm going to watch my own oil consumption and see.

 

[steam man]

Something is not right here. Maine has some of the highest electrical rates in the country I believe. I am paying about 18 cents/KWH. Doesn't Illinois have lower rates than that?

 

[Jags]

Something is not right here. Maine has some of the highest electrical rates in the country I believe. I am paying about 18 cents/KWH. Doesn't Illinois have lower rates than that?

I believe that they are lower. My point with the post above is that I run LOTS of stuff off of electric and I am still under $120 per month. To believe that DHW is going to cost $100 per month (at least here) is probably not correct.

 

[mayhem]

I also have an indirect storage tank feeding off the boiler's internal coil. The question again is: How much oil do you use to heat DHW?

If you figured a gallon a day at $4.50/gal, that's $135/mo for DHW. Even with your indirect tank, you're still using/heating at the same rate.

I have a hard time believing my DHW needs would cost near that using elec, but I'm going to watch my own oil consumption and see.

IIRC my boiler uses a nozzle that rated at a couple quarts an hour (may be wrong). The boiler runs about 15-20 minutes every time we take a shower or a bath, probably twice that to do a load in the dishwasher since it runs twice for washing and then rinsing. So if you take 3 showers and do a load of dishes per day you can probably safely assume a gallon a day of oil. As another measurement I usually get a topoff in the springtime and using nothing but hot water until November I easily use a solid 175-200 gallons for my DHW over a 6-7 month period. So if we figure conservatively 175 gallons over 7 months we still end up with .83 gallons a day...on the high side of 200 gallons over 6 months we're looking at 1.1 gallons a day.

Dont forget too that you have the additional offset of not running the electric fuel pump, ignitor, zone valves and (in my case) outdoor power vent for the exhaust. While an electric DHW likely uses more juice per second of ontime than the oil boiler, its still a shift in the energy usage. I honestly have no idea how much electricicty my boiler draws, I do know the power vent is 144 watts and it runs 7 minutes after my boiler shuts down (so thats running for 25-30 minutes every time I take a shower)...my boiler is on a 40A circuit so I know it probably uses something significant when its running. Anyone know a way to find out its draw?

 

[Patapsco Mike]

A normal electric hot water heater, with no special modifications or timers, will use between $150 and $250 of electricity a year.

 

[Tfin]

Wow! I had no idea electric hot water heaters were that efficient today. I have an externally heated hot water tank off my furnace. This topic has been a real eye opener. I'm definately going to start researching this now.

 

[mayhem]

Does anyone have any particular electric DHW units they like? Easy DIY setup or electrician tie in? I'm not expecting a simple 3 prong plug.

 

[Tfin]

Wiring it would be a piece of cake (as long as you had space in your panel for it). Its the plumbing end that scares me.

 

[webbie]

Plumbing is a crisis of confidence. Once you solder a couple hundred joints and they don't leak, you become pretty fearless.

Still, it is best to learn from someone who is experienced. It's mainly, IMHO, about:
1. the torch - a good one - I'm partial to the separate plumbers tank....with the nice lightweight torch end.
2. Cleaning and fluxing properly
3. heating slowly
4. keeping water (even a couple drops) out of the joint

Some solders work better than others, also.......

Wiring 220 into something which is full of water deserves some caution. If you are really paranoid (like me), you will shut off the breaker and remove it....or at least shut it off and triple check the wires at the hot water heater - to each other and to ground.

Given the current price of oil - an electric hot water is a good choice....especially for less demanding users. Initial cost is much lower, as is service and replacement over the years.