Advice

[potter]

I have two heated buildings on my property. The first is 1250 s.ft. studio wksp. currently heated infloor with a high efficiency propane boiler (munchkin). Typically uses 4-500 gal. of propane.
The second is our house, currently about a 1000 Sq ft, but adding a 250 sq ft bedroom addition. Heated last winter with a wood stove in the basement using @ 4 cords. The new addition will not be able to recieve heat from the wood stove...
I am thinking of putting radiant tubing in addition floor, and retro fitting the house with staple up and a few radiators.
So, I have gone through the posts, but am having trouble making sense of it all. An EPA OWB would be simplest, placing between the two buildings. But there seems to be posts about OWB that aren't encouraging ( breakdowns inefficiency). Using the other boilers involves another building adding to expense.
On top of this I'm buying wood. Just bought a splitter with friends, would be buying log loads.
I also struggle with whether if I installed a geothermal system, I might have similar costs in electricity, and not be doing the wood handling.
Well, if anyone has gone though a similar decision, I'd appreciate hearing your thought re: types, brands, overall cost, and ease of use.

 

[stee6043]

So many variables. One thing you can count on is the fact that states/localities are focusing on OWB's more and more. Not to say anyone will see outright bans in the next year, two years, five years, but who knows if/when it will happen. If it's my money to spend I'm going to go with the lower risk option of indoor units. You may also want to look into whether or not simply building an enclosure around a boiler really makes it a non-OWB. I've seen some varying opinions on that.

If it were me I'd build something that connects to one of your houses for the boiler. I'd install a gassifier and know that I'm getting a great piece of equipment that "should" be safe from new regulations since it's "inside".

I have no knowledge of geothermal....so maybe that is the way to go? No clue...

 

[potter]

I would only look at EPA OWBs.

 

[Gooserider]

Is there any option to put the boiler / storage in one or the other of the existing buildings? That is the most efficient route as it means that any heat lost by the system goes into heating the house... Next best might be to build a boiler room addition onto the side of one of the buildings...

The option you suggested of putting the boiler in a structure in between would also work, but from what I've seen it costs similarly for a small extra building to hold a gasser as it would to purchase one of the better quality EPA OWB "outhouses" However what many of our users have done is to put up a larger structure that serves as a multi-function building - Boiler / storage shed, wood shed, storage facility, etc... This costs more, but you get more use out of the building. It is also less immediately visible as a wood boiler than an OWB... One approach I've seen mentioned that sounds intriguing is to get a used freight container - put the boiler and storage inside, along with some wood storage, and put a layer of siding on the outside... Relatively low cost for a quick and easy building. I have a friend with a couple he uses for storage, and they are pretty nice to deal with.

One thing that might be useful, that I didn't see mentioned is the distance between the buildings?

Gooserider

 

[sgschwend]

Two types of geothermal that I know of: you drill two well far enough apart so that you pump water from one and drain to the other taking heat out of the well, or you dig down and bury a large amount of tubbing to collect the heat from the earth. Both of these are very expensive.

The best option is a basement system, have you looked at putting the system under the new addition? A little more forming but if you plan ahead 250 square feet is a nice size for a system, just setup a nice big outdoor access point to install equipment and perhaps a shoot to drop wood in.

 

[flyingcow]

check to see if geothermal needs permits and what your area allows. some jurisdictions are nervous about possible problems with contamination of ground water, ocassionaly happens.


When i priced out OWB versus gassifier, the lower wood consumption, and very low emissions made my decision. Spent more money(maybe 25% more) on equipment, but using 1/3 to 1/2 as much wood will pay for it. Cost of wood plus time handling.

 

[potter]

Sorry , haven't checked this thread in a couple days, thanks for the comments. The buildings are about 2-300 ft. apart.
We also have a pond next to the house, spring fed, and about 8-9 ft deep, deep enough for tubing? (New York State).
The studio is fairly efficient, 90+ Munchkin boiler and propane is a business expense there.
I'd really like to minimize my propane consumption- I always feel I'm getting shafted by them.... prices change according to my level of protest. Threaten to change companies and suddenly the price drops......Just get tired of the Kabuki dance with them.

 

[sgschwend]

Heat pumps have a working range that you want to stick with. As the heat source gets colder the heat pump will begin to loose efficiency. Manufactures list this information. I would think that your pond winter temperature would be very low; and your heat pump will make it even colder.

So why not put in a basement under the new addition?

 

[Hydronics]

8 to 9' seems to be regarded as the minimum depth for a pond for geothermal. I spoke to a goethermal designer/installer who said that all of the pond installations he did failed because animals chewed into the tubing. He said he will no longer do pond installs. Geothermal seems to start at $20,000 to install. The Contractor I met with said his 4000 ft2 geo. house uses $200/month in summer and $500/month in winter of electricity. This hardly seems like a bargain...

 

[Como]

Geothermal makes better sense if you need heating and cooling.

Inside or outside I do not see the difference, the technology is what makes the difference. The Austrian etc make installs, 'cabins' and containers. I seem to remeber Garn could do the same.

 

[potter]

sounds like u need 2 woodstoves.

Problem is this bedroom- being added on to house with entry between- no way to move heat to bedroom from main house. You can't put a woodstove in a bedroom, right?

Have exchanged emails with Mark at thiswarmhouse.com about solutions, one of the products mentioned was an Empyre Pro EPA OWB. Any comments about this particular unit? Formerly Greenwood.. His other solutions involve storage that I don't have space for.

 

[Wet1]

What Pook is saying might make the most sense. If the entry way is open, some heat will flow from one side to the other and fans obviosly help a lot. Making up the difference might be as simple as using an electric space heater.

Another option for that area (to assist the heat from a wood stove) is something like a mini split system.
http://www.younits.com/fujitsu-halc...6-seer-9000-btu-p-1323.html?utm_source=Google Base&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=comparison_shopping
I'm buying a couple of the larger 1 ton units for AC and supplemental heating. But a heat pump is not idea for the coldest NY weather, so electric space heater might still be needed.

One other thing to note is the huge tax break on the geothermal systems right now... 30% on the cost of the entire system. That would be enough for me to really consider it.

 

[Gooserider]

IMHO the current universe of EPA OWB's is not developed enough yet - read some of the other threads in this area on them - they seem like they are using their current batch of customers as unwilling beta testers to work the design bugs out of the units w/o spending the engineering money to do it right...

It also seems to me like they are often doing gross oversizing so that the units spend most of their time idling as the main way that they keep them from self destructing as quickly as they would if run hard the way you need to in order to get good efficiency... Look at the difference in sizing between the gasifiers that most folks are putting in, vs. the OWB's.

Gooserider

 

[potter]

Thanks for your responses.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Just started following this thread. Seems like Potter is only adding in a 250 sq foot addition, so this is a relatively small smace to begin with. The thought of installing a geothermal unit for a bedroom just seems a bit overkill
With the combination of area between your house/studio and addition....it seems like all in all is under 2500 in area? My vote would be to go with the fan pushing cold air to the stove room, or perhaps a small electric baseboard in the bedroom.
If your furnace is fairly old and in need of a new one, I might look at getting a interior wood furnace....if your addition was 1000 feet it would be a completely different story.
What is your cost for KW/hour in your area? Can you give us a sketch/floorplan of the final addition relative to the other buildings? Good luck

Edit: Also noticed that the wood stove is in your basement....any way you could move this to the first floor? (Probably not, but thought I would ask.)

 

[potter]

Again, thanks for the comments. I'm in the vague planning stage so....

Basement stove works fine for existing house. Problem with blowing or moving heat is that the house is stone -wall and floor. The bedroom will be connected by a hallway but pretty remote. Could have some kind of run underground to blow heat from basement (which does stay very warm)?
Don't know if this is possible.
Really like infloor heat, and am spoiled by our workshop, .

Just for ideal fantasy sake- how much for a smallest Garn to tie into both buildings? Also costs of tying into an existing system (infloor) in studio?
I would have to hire this out, as I have no particular plumbing skills..... It would be nice to have a building as a woodshed, that could also house the Garn.So ballpark figure? (not for the building, just system)

 

[Gooserider]

Tieing into an existing system is pretty easy - essentially a couple of tees to go in parallel with the existing boiler, and maybe a couple of valves or pumps to keep water from circulating through the heating system that isn't being used.... The big money will be in the Garn Barn and the lines to and from it, but I will leave those estimates to someone more expert on Garns and outdoor lines.

Gooserider

 

[potter]

Thanks gooserider , you are always generous with info.