Considering stoves and location

[wesessiah]

stoves i've been looking at are the drolet myriad and englander 30. i'm open to other suggestions in the price range. i'm not sure if they would be the right size for the size of area i plan on heating. i've taken the time to mock up a floor plan (forgive me for how awful it is, computer drafting just starting to gain favor in my area in my high school/college days, so i've always preferred a pen and paper, plus i'm just rusty.) further details below the picture.

the section with the red towards the center is a gas log fire place, and the red towards the top indicates the air return. the rooms with blue walls are rooms the doors pretty much always stay closed and are not used. so the areas that will be heated should come out to about 1150 sq ft. the only feasible locations i see to put the stove are in the kitchen/dining room (left side) to the left of the partial (perforated lines) wall which could be removed if needed, or just to the right of that wall on the other corner in the living room at the hallway. i've thought about running ducting one of two ways:
1. to the air return and turn the unit's fan on.
2. running a duct with a duct fan through the attic. the attic is insulated to the point that it stays about the same temperature year round.
i don't really see a feasible way to do number 1 without it being really tacky, and running a duct through the crawl space to it doesn't seem like it would be a good idea.

now to my questions:
1. would these two stoves, or others that are comparable, be too much for what i want to heat, so i'd have to run it too low? we keep the two bedroom doors shut because of pets, but we could open one of them for an extra couple hundred sq ft. my concern with going smaller is it seems like the stoves in the next step down have tiny little fire boxes

2. would running ducting cause the stove to not properly draft?

3. which location would be best?

any other input is appreciated. i started thinking about this due to propane prices (it's that or electric here) being so high, and having to spend $1400 for 4 months of use. i grew up with my grand parents only having a wood stove, and it seems like these newer animals are in a different league from that old 60's model... which is still in great shape btw. as long winded as this already is, i had some other questions i can't recall, ha. anyway, thanks.

 

[fox9988]

Welcome to the forums wesessiah,
We will need more info: location, insulation, draftiness, age of the home, total sq ft, etc.
1. The 30 is a large stove, depends on the above. It is well liked on the forum.
2. I doubt you will need any ducting. You may not even need to run the fan on the stove, depending on the above.
3. Which ever you like best, both are centrally located.

 

[wesessiah]

Welcome to the forums wesessiah,
We will need more info: location, insulation, draftiness, age of the home, total sq ft, etc.
1. The 30 is a large stove, depends on the above. It is well liked on the forum.
2. I doubt you will need any ducting. You may not even need to run the fan on the stove, depending on the above.
3. Which ever you like best, both are cenrally located.

thanks for the welcome and reply.
i'm in the foothills of nc, just west of charlotte, the house is well insulated, not very drafty but a lot of window surface area in some places, built in 1973, total sq ft is about 1600. i have plenty of pin oak, white oak, and sweet gum on my land. i hear conflicting stories about sweet gum. some people say it's not nearly as good as other hardwoods, and some people say it just has to season longer.

 

[Grisu]

Given your location and that the area you want to heat is effectively more 1200 sqft than 1600 a medium-sized stove with a firebox of about 2.5 cu.ft. should be sufficient. There are a bunch of options and I am sure others will chime in with their favorite. I have the PE Super insert and heat with it pretty well ~1300 sqft of a moderately insulated home up in Vermont. Hence my guess that it will be sufficient for your purpose.

It sounds like you have not taking down the trees you mentioned already. Please keep in mind that modern woodstoves require properly seasoned wood to work effectively. Especially oak takes two years to season properly. Plus, wood only seasons when split and stacked but rarely when still in logs. From reading here I would stay away from the sweet gum as it is often stringy and hard to split and rots easily. If you do not have dry wood or the option of getting one I would not plan on putting a stove in this fall to heat in the winter. You would be really unhappy about your purchase.

Your two preferred locations sound fine but how would you run the chimney? What about replacing the gas fireplace with a woodstove? It requires propane, too, doesn't it?

 

[fox9988]

That's a lot of stove for your house/climate. Others will chime in, but I'd suggest about 2-2.5 cuft. This should give you good over-night burns without over heating the house. Have you considered cat vs reburn? For mild climates, the cat has a long burn time,low heat, clean burn advantage, but people manage with the reburners fine. Non-cats under 2 cuft have a hard time achieving over-night burns. New EPA stoves require DRY wood (especially cat stoves). If you don't have a wood supply cut/split/stacked (c/s/s) for this winter, you will have some problems.The fastest drying wood takes ~6 months to season after c/s/s, Oak (which is excellent wood) takes 2 years min. after c/s/s, preferably 3. If you buy "seasoned" wood, it pobably won't be. Most people here are 2-3 years ahead on their wood supply. Sweetgum is very difficult to split, but should dry in ~9 months. Good luck.

 

[wesessiah]

thanks for the replies.
i could run the chimney straight up from either location.
buying cords of seasoned wood this year isn't a problem, but i would go ahead and get started on my future supply.
i don't mind splitting the sweetgum, i had one fall in a storm last year, just wasn't sure if it was good when seasoned. the one i cut didn't burn well in a camp fire after 4-5 months. btw, i still have the propane heat, i just don't want to have to buy any more, so even if the seasoned wood i get isn't as seasoned as it should be, i still have a primary source of heat.
i've had trouble finding stoves under $1,000 in the 2-2.5 cu ft range. for example, the englander 30 was about 3.5 cu ft, and the next step down in theirs was 1.8 cu ft. or the ones i do find seem to have terrible burn times. any other suggestions? some of these things are hard to find on a google search if you don't already know which stores to look at. thanks.

 

[fox9988]

Pacific Energy True North is ~$950 1.9cuft
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pe-true-north.60306/

 

[Grisu]

For affordable stoves also check the Drolet line or the Lopi Republic 1750. If you take your time you may also find a good used one on Craiglist etc. When you want to buy seasoned wood ask how long it has been split and stacked. For most species it takes a year to season properly; oak two to three which means even if you cut that up now you probably will not be able to use it before 2014. Wood does not really dry when still in logs! There are very few firewood dealers how sell truly seasoned wood and you will certainly pay a premium price for it. Be there when it gets delivered, split some pieces and test with a moisture meter in the center of the newly split surface whether it really is below 20%.

 

[jeff_t]

Is your that budget, in the $1000 range? Do you have any stove shops in the area, or are you looking at box stores? If you can spend a little more, maybe look at the Napolean 1400. A smaller Drolet might be more suitable. Maybe look at Buck stoves, they're made in NC.

 

[wesessiah]

thanks for the suggestions. i'm reconsidering placement and possibly stoves after speaking with my wife more. my wife doesn't like the idea of a free standing stove, and as far as i know, you lose more heat to the masonry and with the inherent design of an insert. so i'm now looking into putting a free standing stove on the fireplace. the dimensions are 38" w 29.5" h with about a 17" hearth that's a foot high. i'm not finding much on running the piping up a chimney. does this end up being more cost effective? if so it may expand my stove selection, but i suppose i'm also limiting myself with that height. i can't stand paying for someone to do something for me that i can do, but i was never crazy about the idea of cutting my own holes in my roof.

does running a free standing stove to a chimney require a certain amount of stove pipe, such as running x feet or up to the smoke shelf? is it as simple as running double walled stove pipe to x height, putting a shield around the damper area, and basic integrity check of the chimney?

i'm also compromising something else instead of just making this my project. my wife likes stoves with the bay window look, are there others besides the drolet sahara, and osburn 1800? if i can save enough on the chimney i could see myself interested in the osburn, but the sahara is too tall. the bay look isn't necessary, but i told her i would try.

regarding the buck stoves, i checked the website out, thanks. looks like there are two dealers relatively close to me, but seems like all of them (fireplace/woodstove shops) have been closed since friday for memorial day weekend. it seems like their stoves are rated at more sq ft than stoves of similar specs. what kind of burn times do people see with something like their model 74? most stoves with similar sized fire boxes are rated as low as 800-1000 sq ft, and up to 2000ish, but the 74 with a 2.6 cu ft box is rated 1500-2600. btw, i've been getting most of my info online, but have only been able to check out places like lowes and home depot that don't have stoves in yet.

i like some of the drolet models, but it seems like they're all too tall for my fireplace by a few inches. i'll have to check on the lopi wednesday when i'm off again. one of the places a few towns over carries lopi and buck. looks like the price on the lopi has about a $1,000 variance at online stores. maybe it will be closer to the bottom end locally, lol.

thanks for taking the time to read my novels everyone.

 

[jeff_t]

In a masonry chimney, you should install a liner, like this (broken link removed to http://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/products.php). Should come in at a lot less than class A, so if a hearth stove works for you, go for it. Lots of people use inserts effectively, too.

 

[wesessiah]

In a masonry chimney, you should install a liner, like this (broken link removed to http://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/products.php). Should come in at a lot less than class A, so if a hearth stove works for you, go for it. Lots of people use inserts effectively, too.

thanks for the link. are there any places online that sell legs or pedestals? some stoves come with the option of either, some stoves come without one but you pay a premium in their store. i'm curious so i could maybe shorten up some of these taller stoves.
nice sheldon quote btw.

 

[dafattkidd]

Welcome to the forum. Freestanders tend to be less expensive but for heating that space I wouldn't rule out an insert- especially if you're having trouble with the height of the lintel. Many of us heat our houses very effectively and efficiently with inserts.

 

[wesessiah]

thanks. i'm concerned with an insert not being able to get the master bedroom (opposite end of the house) heated without running us out of the living room.
with listed assembled heights of these stoves, does that include the collar/blower/shield in the height? or just the stove top itself? the lintel is about 1 brick wide then tapers up at about 45 derees. i'm having trouble finding anything between 2.0 and 2.5 cu ft in the area of 28" height. most are about 1.8 cu ft.

 

[HollowHill]

Woodstock Progress Hybrid, with short leg option, comes in at 27.5", I believe, and is 2.8 cu ft.

 

[rideau]

PH is a very handsome stove too with a large viewing window. You might have your wife look at the stove on Wodostock's site, and also view posts here under the search: Progress Hybrid. Lots of folks posted pictures of their new stoves last year.

 

[wesessiah]

thanks for the suggestion on the progress hybrid. it's going to be out of my budget for the time being, but i can see myself getting one down the road after convincing my wife they aren't mean monsters, and that i'll actually still chop wood, lol. she never got to experience a wood stove growing up, except for being told she got burned on one when she was 2. i believe i'm going to stay in the neighborhood of $1,000 and cut the legs on what i get.

 

[begreen]

thanks. i'm concerned with an insert not being able to get the master bedroom (opposite end of the house) heated without running us out of the living room.
with listed assembled heights of these stoves, does that include the collar/blower/shield in the height? or just the stove top itself? the lintel is about 1 brick wide then tapers up at about 45 derees. i'm having trouble finding anything between 2.0 and 2.5 cu ft in the area of 28" height. most are about 1.8 cu ft.

Insert or freestanding, moving the heat is a separate issue. In order to get warm air into the end of the hallway I think you are going to need a freestanding fan at the far end of the hallway, blowing cool air to the warm to assist convection.

 

[rideau]

thanks for the suggestion on the progress hybrid. it's going to be out of my budget for the time being, but i can see myself getting one down the road after convincing my wife they aren't mean monsters, and that i'll actually still chop wood, lol. she never got to experience a wood stove growing up, except for being told she got burned on one when she was 2. i believe i'm going to stay in the neighborhood of $1,000 and cut the legs on what i get.

Before buying a stove with the intention of cutting the legs, make certain you check with the manufacturer to determine whether/what you can/need to do to make the stove safe. They are tested and safe as is, and your underlayment requirements may change....just be safe.

 

[wesessiah]

would the location of the free standing fan need to change if my living room ceiling fan is almost directly above the hearth? we have plenty of fans to do whatever is needed... my wife likes to have the air on, put two blankets on, turn a fan on, then start up an electric heater during the summer.

as far as shortened legs, would it be more of a matter of distance of the hearth from the floor, or proximity of the fire box to the hearth? i'll still check with the manufacturer, i just like to ask pre-questions so i can look into options as early as possible.

 

[rideau]

would the location of the free standing fan need to change if my living room ceiling fan is almost directly above the hearth? we have plenty of fans to do whatever is needed... my wife likes to have the air on, put two blankets on, turn a fan on, then start up an electric heater during the summer.

as far as shortened legs, would it be more of a matter of distance of the hearth from the floor, or proximity of the fire box to the hearth? i'll still check with the manufacturer, i just like to ask pre-questions so i can look into options as early as possible.

Not quite sure what you are asking...what I was trying to say was that if you change the proximity of the firebox to the hearth, then there is the possibility you are increasing significantly the heat accumulation under the stove and the corresponding required R-value of the hearth. If the stove has not been tested with lesser clearance than the designed legs ( a likely situation) then: (a) there may well not be any acceptable/legal installation ( which likely would void your homeowner's insurance in case of fire- but at least as importantly might create a situation that increases chance of a fire); or (b) the stove may require a greater hearth pad R factor ( reistance to fire) to provide adequate protection from the floor, which would likely mean a thicker hearth pad, but perhaps only one made with different materials.
Hope that gives you the information you need to make your inquiries...

 

[begreen]

The ceiling fan location should be ok. You may want to reverse it's direction (blowing upward) in the winter to assist circulation without any draftiness.

 

[wesessiah]

thanks, both answered my questions.

i know i'm turning this into a convoluted thread, but i hate making new ones...

i spoke with a chimney sweep, and he told me with an 8x12 flue, that a good option is using a flue liner up to the smoke shelf, and not all the way up. he said the size/volume of the 8x12 flue would be sufficient for proper draft beyond the liner. is there a general concensus that this is fine?

he also said he could get me a buck 74 (new) with a blower and legs for $1600. i asked him about shorter legs, and he said at least with the buck 74 it's fine since it's used as a free standing or insert, so even just the box laying on the hearth should be fine as long as proper clearances are kept. he did call his contact at buck just to verify that and is supposed to give me a call back. now i suppose i'll just have to call around to other manufacturers and ask them.

 

[jeff_t]

Take the liner all the way to the top. An insulated liner may not be necessary if the chimney isn't on an external wall, but it will never hurt. Insulate the liner if there is any question about the integrity of the masonry chimney. Only going above the smoke shelf is asking for trouble. The flue gasses will cool rapidly, possibly leading to a sluggish draft and increased creosote buildup. Not to mention that cleaning it will be a major PITA.

 

[firefighterjake]

thanks, both answered my questions.

i know i'm turning this into a convoluted thread, but i hate making new ones...

i spoke with a chimney sweep, and he told me with an 8x12 flue, that a good option is using a flue liner up to the smoke shelf, and not all the way up. he said the size/volume of the 8x12 flue would be sufficient for proper draft beyond the liner. is there a general concensus that this is fine?

he also said he could get me a buck 74 (new) with a blower and legs for $1600. i asked him about shorter legs, and he said at least with the buck 74 it's fine since it's used as a free standing or insert, so even just the box laying on the hearth should be fine as long as proper clearances are kept. he did call his contact at buck just to verify that and is supposed to give me a call back. now i suppose i'll just have to call around to other manufacturers and ask them.

Best bet is to run the liner all the way to the top for best results in terms of draft and cleaning . . . it may cost a little more now, but in the long run you'll most likely be much happier.