Researching alternative fuels

[walkingdeep]

Hey there,
So I'm new to this site, but from reading some of your posts, you seem to know a heck of a lot more than I do about all this
Here's the deal: a friend of mine (who lives right down the road from me) just bought a pellet stove for his house, which is roughly 1850-1900 sq. ft. He's been going on and on about how great this thing is, and how he'll be able to replace his gas heating. The area where we live is costly as it is, and a $400-700 gas bill every month has become the proverbial straw on the camel's back.
So when he told me he found a great alternative heating source, I got excited, too. Here's what he's planning on doing (and this brings me to my question). He was told that he can set this stove up in his basement and it will heat his entire two story house. This seemed like an incredible claim, so I figured I would do some research for him (and for me) to try and get a definitive answer on what, exactly, these stoves are capable of.
Thanks for bearing with my ramblings!

A

 

[kalevi]

Check out the fuel calculator in this site to compare price/energy output. You will probably find wood to be one of the cheapest ways to heat. A pellet stove or a wood stove can heat a 1900 sq foot house easily.

 

[walkingdeep]

so installing it in the basement will heat both top floors? impressive.

 

[kalevi]

Heating both floors is bit more of a challenge depending on air flow. There have been quite a few posts here about fans and adding ducting. I have a ~3000 sq foot house and I can keep main floor at 72°F while the upstairs is around 68°F with the smallest insert from Pacific Energy even on days with lows around 0°F. The vicinity of the insert is more like 75°F. My furnace fan circulates the air around the house and the stairs going up are wide open giving a wide path for the heat to rise. I have new windows with argon inside and pretty good insulation. IF you have poor insulation, leaky windows, etc. the situation will change but a wood stove can definitely give you all the heating you need at lower cost than electric, oil, or gas.

 

[jpl1nh]

So all in all with the right stove set up the right way, it certainly is possible to heat your whole house with a pellet stove. Good insulation makes a huge difference as well as it would with any fuel. Pellets will save quite a bit over fossil fuels and wood in your area possibly would save even more. Like its possible you could get all the wood you need (with a little fun chainsaw, splitter and a bit of healthy physical work on your part) for free. For some pellets and their ease of use are the way to go. For others wood with its natural ambience and, in larger stoves, greater capacity to heat, is the best choice.

 

[Cath]

I hope your friend has an insulated basement. See the article below from the Woodstock Stove website. Basically it says there is a tremendous heat loss through the walls of the concrete foundation. Also, the heat will rise better if your floors are uninsulated.

Woodstock Stove articles on Basement Installations
(broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/basement_install.html)
Quotation:
“If you had a 20’ x 30’ basement with concrete or concrete block walls, your heat loss could easily be over 1 million BTUs per day through the walls (see page 3). Concrete or concrete block walls have the same R-value as a 3/4” thick particle board.”

I would also consider wood stoves over pellets. I understand the cleanliness and convenience of pellets. However, BioBricks are made in Connecticut and for the amount of heat output the price should be roughly competitive with cordwood. They can be used in wood stoves so you can have your cake and eat it too. Scrounge what you can, buy cordwood if the price is reasonable, or get the BioBricks which take up less room and don't bring bugs and dirt into the house.

Also, you won't be at the mercy of a pellet shortage.

Finally, I think pellet stoves tend to be more complicated since they need more mechanisms and often seem to have more bells and whistles. So my guess is they are more prone to breakdown.

We haven't tried them ourselves yet but we have a 38 Lb sample pack of 20 bricks and will probably burn them on the next cold day. However, do a key word search using the term "BioBricks" or "Bio Bricks" and see what others are saying. As you read the opinions here keep in mind that there is often a bias in favor of scrounging. Many seem to enjoy processing their own wood; it's a hobby, good exercise and a stress reliever.

~Cath

 

[Highbeam]

Regarding the woodstock article it must be recognized that they claim the huge heat loss in the basement because their stoves are radiant heaters and by nature a radiant heater heats the things around it until they heat up the area. Concrete walls absorb a lot of radiant heat and maybe never offer the heat back to the room air. The pellet stoves and other convection heaters are air heaters all by themselves and so aren't as effected by cold walls.

 

[granpajohn]

Regarding the woodstock article it must be recognized that they claim the huge heat loss in the basement because their stoves are radiant heaters and by nature a radiant heater heats the things around it until they heat up the area. Concrete walls absorb a lot of radiant heat and maybe never offer the heat back to the room air. The pellet stoves and other convection heaters are air heaters all by themselves and so aren't as effected by cold walls.

And another thing about that Woodstock article...They assume the concrete wall is hanging out in free air, not surrounded by soil. This leads them to an incorrect R value. (Or incorrect delta-T, depending how you look at it.) It could be partially true depending on how much basement you really have. For example, a walkout basement can have most of one wall exposed to the cold. So, give that a little thought with respect to your own basement. (And don't be afraid to add insulation anyway. It always helps.)

 

[kalevi]

Here, in USDA climate zone 4, they recommend insulating your basement down to the frost line which is about 4 feet below grade.

I think walkingdeep is looking for suggestions on where to put the wood or pellet stove and so we should recommend it go on the main floor. I nice fireplace or stove really makes a living room or family room a comfy place and is better for heating the house.

 

[jpl1nh]

Regarding the woodstock article it must be recognized that they claim the huge heat loss in the basement because their stoves are radiant heaters and by nature a radiant heater heats the things around it until they heat up the area. Concrete walls absorb a lot of radiant heat and maybe never offer the heat back to the room air. The pellet stoves and other convection heaters are air heaters all by themselves and so aren't as effected by cold walls.

And another thing about that Woodstock article...They assume the concrete wall is hanging out in free air, not surrounded by soil. This leads them to an incorrect R value. (Or incorrect delta-T, depending how you look at it.) It could be partially true depending on how much basement you really have. For example, a walkout basement can have most of one wall exposed to the cold. So, give that a little thought with respect to your own basement. (And don't be afraid to add insulation anyway. It always helps.)

I'm not sure they did assume all was hanging out, I believe they referenced a couple of feet above ground, the rest below, and used a soil temperature gradient from surface down to stable ambient 55 degree temp at 5' of depth. However, as you pointed out, no matter, insulating your basement always helps a lot and I think that's the real point.

 

[Cath]

Regarding the woodstock article it must be recognized that they claim the huge heat loss in the basement because their stoves are radiant heaters and by nature a radiant heater heats the things around it until they heat up the area. Concrete walls absorb a lot of radiant heat and maybe never offer the heat back to the room air. The pellet stoves and other convection heaters are air heaters all by themselves and so aren't as effected by cold walls.

And another thing about that Woodstock article...They assume the concrete wall is hanging out in free air, not surrounded by soil. This leads them to an incorrect R value. (Or incorrect delta-T, depending how you look at it.) It could be partially true depending on how much basement you really have. For example, a walkout basement can have most of one wall exposed to the cold. So, give that a little thought with respect to your own basement. (And don't be afraid to add insulation anyway. It always helps.)

I'm not sure they did assume all was hanging out, I believe they referenced a couple of feet above ground, the rest below, and used a soil temperature gradient from surface down to stable ambient 55 degree temp at 5' of depth. However, as you pointed out, no matter, insulating your basement always helps a lot and I think that's the real point.

jplhn,
You are absolutely correct. This is what the article says: "When looking at heat retention in a basement wall, we have to consider three portions of the wall: the part that is above ground, the part that is below ground but above the frostline, and the part that is below the frostline. Obviously, the portion of the basement wall that is below the frost line will stay warmer than the portions that are exposed or within the frost line. In cold climates, the frost line is typically 2-3’ below grade. If you are heating an uninsulated basement with concrete walls, the heat loss through the concrete that is above the frost line is astronomical. Consider the following example. "
A quick look at the diagram will confirm this.

The observation regarding convection heat is more problematic. I re-read the article and didn't see anything to suggest that any radiant stoves were tested or that the data was somehow based on radiant heat. There is simply a lot of discussion of R values, and the thermal resistance and insulating value of concrete. E.g.: "B. Keeping the Heat In the House -- The R-value of a material is a measure of its thermal resistance. The higher the number, the greater the resistance and the better the insulating value. Concrete has a very low R-value."

Concrete is going to have low R-value regardless of the type of heat. Radiant heat may well make it worse which might explain why Woodstock takes the effort to put this information out there since they would be more likely to have dissatisifed customers if they didn't.

If they are talking about radiant heat one would have to wonder if that isn't deliberately obscured to gloss over a disadvantage of radiant heat.
~Cath

 

[jpl1nh]

Regarding the woodstock article it must be recognized that they claim the huge heat loss in the basement because their stoves are radiant heaters and by nature a radiant heater heats the things around it until they heat up the area. Concrete walls absorb a lot of radiant heat and maybe never offer the heat back to the room air. The pellet stoves and other convection heaters are air heaters all by themselves and so aren't as effected by cold walls.

And another thing about that Woodstock article...They assume the concrete wall is hanging out in free air, not surrounded by soil. This leads them to an incorrect R value. (Or incorrect delta-T, depending how you look at it.) It could be partially true depending on how much basement you really have. For example, a walkout basement can have most of one wall exposed to the cold. So, give that a little thought with respect to your own basement. (And don't be afraid to add insulation anyway. It always helps.)

I'm not sure they did assume all was hanging out, I believe they referenced a couple of feet above ground, the rest below, and used a soil temperature gradient from surface down to stable ambient 55 degree temp at 5' of depth. However, as you pointed out, no matter, insulating your basement always helps a lot and I think that's the real point.

jplhn,
You are absolutely correct. This is what the article says: "When looking at heat retention in a basement wall, we have to consider three portions of the wall: the part that is above ground, the part that is below ground but above the frostline, and the part that is below the frostline. Obviously, the portion of the basement wall that is below the frost line will stay warmer than the portions that are exposed or within the frost line. In cold climates, the frost line is typically 2-3’ below grade. If you are heating an uninsulated basement with concrete walls, the heat loss through the concrete that is above the frost line is astronomical. Consider the following example. "
A quick look at the diagram will confirm this.

The observation regarding convection heat is more problematic. I re-read the article and didn't see anything to suggest that any radiant stoves were tested or that the data was somehow based on radiant heat. There is simply a lot of discussion of R values, and the thermal resistance and insulating value of concrete. E.g.: "B. Keeping the Heat In the House -- The R-value of a material is a measure of its thermal resistance. The higher the number, the greater the resistance and the better the insulating value. Concrete has a very low R-value."

Concrete is going to have low R-value regardless of the type of heat. Radiant heat may well make it worse which might explain why Woodstock takes the effort to put this information out there since they would be more likely to have dissatisifed customers if they didn't.

If they are talking about radiant heat one would have to wonder if that isn't deliberately obscured to gloss over a disadvantage of radiant heat.
~Cath

While it is possible Woodstock purposely did not discuss the radiant heat-convection heat issue in heat loss in an uninsulated basement due to the potential radiant heat disadvantage, I for one would find that quite out of character for Woodstock Soapstone Company. I believe they simply wanted to rasie awareness of the huge amount of heat loss a basement can have. I can honestly say that they are the most helpful, forthcoming and straight forward company of any type that I have ever done business with. I didn't even buy my Keystone stove from them, I bought it used, yet they have spent much time over many phone calls with me helping me repair small issues with it and answering any and all questions I've had with set up and operation. That they would obscure relevant information to position their product for a less than optimal use doesn't fit my experience with them at all. A stove that beautiful was obviously never designed for an unfinished basement in the first place! ;-)

 

[walkingdeep]

tons of info--thanks! i'm getting the idea that there are more semantics to consider when installing a stove in the basement, as opposed to a main or upper level. so i'll look into setting it up on the main floor. plus, i agree with the statement that there's no sense in hiding a good looking stove in the basement.

 

[Cath]

... While it is possible Woodstock purposely did not discuss the radiant heat-convection heat issue in heat loss in an uninsulated basement due to the potential radiant heat disadvantage, I for one would find that quite out of character for Woodstock Soapstone Company. ... That they would obscure relevant information to position their product for a less than optimal use doesn't fit my experience with them at all. A stove that beautiful was obviously never designed for an unfinished basement in the first place! ;-)

jpl1nh,
I have heard great things about Woodstock's reputation and am inclined to believe in their integrity. And I completely agree that the article is meant to be informative in a general sense. I wouldn't expect them to emphasize the differences between radiant and convection heat in this context.

I was simply trying to address someone else's inference that this article applied to radiant heat by pointing out that if it were --and if Woodstock didn't make that clear-- that it would be misleading. So, to belabor the point, I don't think they are being misleading since I think the article is about heat loss in general and not specifically about radiant heat.

However, at the risk of confusing things further, I would like to respond to a comment of yours above. If they were being deliberately misleading it wouldn't be to "position their product for a less than optimal use". Clearly they are advising that wood stoves (theirs included) shouldn't be placed in uninsulated basement. In fact if the other poster is correct then it is that much more important that radiant heat not be used in a basement. You make an excellent point that the beauty of the stove makes it unlikely that anyone would put it in an unfinished basement.

I suppose that doesn't rule out the possibility that some idiots would install it in a finished but uninsulated basement but I don't expect Woodstock to protect those people from themselves. Unless of course an actual salesperson had reason to believe that's where the Buyer was going to install it. I don't know how likely that is as I believe they are sold factory direct.
~Cath

 

[jpl1nh]

... While it is possible Woodstock purposely did not discuss the radiant heat-convection heat issue in heat loss in an uninsulated basement due to the potential radiant heat disadvantage, I for one would find that quite out of character for Woodstock Soapstone Company. ... That they would obscure relevant information to position their product for a less than optimal use doesn't fit my experience with them at all. A stove that beautiful was obviously never designed for an unfinished basement in the first place! ;-)

jpl1nh,
I have heard great things about Woodstock's reputation and am inclined to believe in their integrity. And I completely agree that the article is meant to be informative in a general sense. I wouldn't expect them to emphasize the differences between radiant and convection heat in this context.

I was simply trying to address someone else's inference that this article applied to radiant heat by pointing out that if it were --and if Woodstock didn't make that clear-- that it would be misleading. So, to belabor the point, I don't think they are being misleading since I think the article is about heat loss in general and not specifically about radiant heat.

However, at the risk of confusing things further, I would like to respond to a comment of yours above. If they were being deliberately misleading it wouldn't be to "position their product for a less than optimal use". Clearly they are advising that wood stoves (theirs included) shouldn't be placed in uninsulated basement. In fact if the other poster is correct then it is that much more important that radiant heat not be used in a basement. You make an excellent point that the beauty of the stove makes it unlikely that anyone would put it in an unfinished basement.

I suppose that doesn't rule out the possibility that some idiots would install it in a finished but uninsulated basement but I don't expect Woodstock to protect those people from themselves. Unless of course an actual salesperson had reason to believe that's where the Buyer was going to install it. I don't know how likely that is as I believe they are sold factory direct.
~Cath

Thanks, well said.

 

[jqgs214]

Dont think that CO2 poses much of a health risk, CO on the other hand does but does not sink, its disperses evenly throughout most air masses.

 

[thephotohound]

To add to the confusion on where/when/how to insulate a basement, consider the following: In a finished basement with R-4 (loose fiberglass) in the stud walls adjacent to the concrete (around frost depth) and R-13 in the free standing stud walls (above concrete), when does it make sense to replace the loose fiberglass with extruded polystyrene (R-7.5) at the expense of removing all of the existing drywall to do so?

Simply put, ripping all of the walls apart to go from R-4 to R-7.5.