Puddles of water in the ash tray!!!???

[infinitymike]

Yesterday I opened the cyclone ash tray and the ashes were a black muddy mess full of water, it was like black mortar mix.
Last night I lit a small fire and let it get good and hot, added a bunch of splits and turned on the 2 zones. It was burning pretty good. I had the chamber half full and went to bed at 10:30 I wake at 5am and went outside to the garage and the fan was on, the water temp was 175* and the zones were calling. I opened the door and there was a couple small coals left. Not bad I assume. I put kindling in and it cranked right up. I loaded up some small splits and let it burn till 6am when I filled it half way and left for work. I came home at 1pm to find the box pretty much the way I left it, full of splits, that were all black and charred. the water temp was 200*.

I looked in the ash tray and there was very little ash but a huge puddle of water.

What the heck is goin on?

 

[Gasifier]

Yesterday I opened the cyclone ash tray and the ashes were a black muddy mess full of water, it was like black mortar mix.Last night I lit a small fire and let it get good and hot, added a bunch of splits and turned on the 2 zones. It was burning pretty good. I had the chamber half full and went to bed at 10:30 I wake at 5am and went outside to the garage and the fan was on, the water temp was 175* and the zones were calling. I opened the door and there was a couple small coals left. Not bad I assume. I put kindling in and it cranked right up. I loaded up some small splits and let it burn till 6am when I filled it half way and left for work. I came home at 1pm to find the box pretty much the way I left it, full of splits, that were all black and charred. the water temp was 200*.I looked in the ash tray and there was very little ash but a huge puddle of water. What the heck is goin on?

Hey Mike,

Not much heat demand for the boiler is leaving it idleing. If it idles to long the wood and chamber cool to much and then the fan can not relight the wood because there are no embers left to re-ignite. Your wood is not very dry from what i remember, so that is adding moisture to the system on top of the fact that you are getting some condensation do to the fact that your chimney pipe has gone completely cool because the boiler has not run in so long due to low heat demand. It sounds like all of these things are adding up to your water in your ash cyclone. Waiting until you have more of a heat demand would help, a well insulated storage tank would really help, and dryer wood would also help. Some of the guys with more experience may be able to give you some tips. It is going to be hard because of the low heat demand with the weather the way it is. Hang in there man. The cold weather will come.

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

MuncyBob had the same problem. He put insulation around the cyclone & forgettaboutit, problem solved. Hopefully he will chime in, Randy

 

[hobbyheater]

Yesterday I opened the cyclone ash tray and the ashes were a black muddy mess full of water, it was like black mortar mix.
Last night I lit a small fire and let it get good and hot, added a bunch of splits and turned on the 2 zones. It was burning pretty good. I had the chamber half full and went to bed at 10:30 I wake at 5am and went outside to the garage and the fan was on, the water temp was 175* and the zones were calling. I opened the door and there was a couple small coals left. Not bad I assume. I put kindling in and it cranked right up. I loaded up some small splits and let it burn till 6am when I filled it half way and left for work. I came home at 1pm to find the box pretty much the way I left it, full of splits, that were all black and charred. the water temp was 200*.

I looked in the ash tray and there was very little ash but a huge puddle of water.

What the heck is goin on?

I do not know anything about your boiler. Could it have a Fuseable link that has failed? Picture of the link in the loading chamber of a Jetstream boiler and pictures of the link. It is 3/4" thread.

Allan

 

[Gasifier]

MuncyBob had the same problem. He put insulation around the cyclone & forgettaboutit, problem solved. Hopefully he will chime in, Randy

Singed has a good point. That's right. Your boiler is in an unheated garage. I was not even thinking about that. Hot inside your cyclone and exhaust pipe until you get to insulated chimney pipe. Cold on the outside of both of those. Equals condensation. I did not see any of that because it is very warm in my insulated basement. How cold is it in your garage Mike?

 

[muncybob]

While I did have some condensation in the tray in wood mode my main problem was when running the oil burner.
Insulating the pipe from the boiler and the entire cyclone helped a lot. I even have some insulation between the concrete floor and the tray drawer compartment.

I also have all my SS piping from the boiler to the chimney insulated with high temp insulation to keep my exhaust temps as high as possible to further cut down on condensation/creosote.

Without a call for heat or a timer to turn on the fan you will have a hard time keeping hot coals going for very long. We have the 4 hour cycle timer and it works well to keep coals hot and ready to go when needed.

I'm loving this mild weather though...we've been running the boiler 1st thing in the morning for about an hour(then shut it off) and same again at night. House has been around 68 at 6am and by the time I get back inside from tending the animals we have the house at 70 and lotsa hot water.

Hope insulating does the trick for you. You may also want to try closing the air intake damper to around 3/4 shut.

 

[heaterman]

If I had a boiler without storage, I wouldn't attempt to run it unless outdoor temps were steadily in the 40* range or less. There's just too much idle time without storage when the weather is like we have been experiencing lately.
I've been getting lot's of phone calls from people with many different brands of equipment around here too so don't feel alone. The common denominator in all the systems with condensation problems is no storage.

 

[willworkforwood]

If I had a boiler without storage, I wouldn't attempt to run it unless outdoor temps were steadily in the 40* range or less. There's just too much idle time without storage when the weather is like we have been experiencing lately.
I've been getting lot's of phone calls from people with many different brands of equipment around here too so don't feel alone. The common denominator in all the systems with condensation problems is no storage.

Although I have a ton of respect for your knowledge on all things hydronic, I have to cast a dissenting vote for a blanket statement like this. We routinely run the Econoburn when temps are bouncing all over the map for days on end. The key to doing this successfully is right-sizing the fires. On any given shoulder-season day I'll build a small (1/4 full) fire in the morning and go to work. Later, my wife throws on a few more splits and then eventually shuts everything down empty, at a high temp (for better restart), with the down time lasting all afternoon. Then maybe another smallish fire for the evening and down again for the rest of the night. The pattern varies according to the current and upcoming Weather conditions - some days more frequent/bigger fires, other days fewer. This has been working really well for us for 3 years, but would it work for everyone? - definitely not. Our boiler and wood are in the basement - if your boiler is a distance from the house, doing what I described is a PITA. Also, some folks don't have a person around all day to tend fires, which also works against the small fire approach. But, under the right conditions and circumstances, this can work very well. I do however completely agree that loading a non-storage gasser to the gills on moderate days is grossly inefficient, and probably a short trip to boiler failure down the road.

 

[heaterman]

If I had a boiler without storage, I wouldn't attempt to run it unless outdoor temps were steadily in the 40* range or less. There's just too much idle time without storage when the weather is like we have been experiencing lately.
I've been getting lot's of phone calls from people with many different brands of equipment around here too so don't feel alone. The common denominator in all the systems with condensation problems is no storage.

Although I have a ton of respect for your knowledge on all things hydronic, I have to cast a dissenting vote for a blanket statement like this. We routinely run the Econoburn when temps are bouncing all over the map for days on end. The key to doing this successfully is right-sizing the fires. On any given shoulder-season day I'll build a small (1/4 full) fire in the morning and go to work. Later, my wife throws on a few more splits and then eventually shuts everything down empty, at a high temp (for better restart), with the down time lasting all afternoon. Then maybe another smallish fire for the evening and down again for the rest of the night. The pattern varies according to the current and upcoming Weather conditions - some days more frequent/bigger fires, other days fewer. This has been working really well for us for 3 years, but would it work for everyone? - definitely not. Our boiler and wood are in the basement - if your boiler is a distance from the house, doing what I described is a PITA. Also, some folks don't have a person around all day to tend fires, which also works against the small fire approach. But, under the right conditions and circumstances, this can work very well. I do however completely agree that loading a non-storage gasser to the gills on moderate days is grossly inefficient, and probably a short trip to boiler failure down the road.

Not saying it can't be done...........just that I wouldn't do it. As to the statement about the service calls, it's the truth. None of the systems I have looked at which exhibit condensation issues have storage. It is the only variable that is constant between all of them.

A person with very well seasoned wood, lots of time for tending fire and the ability to be home all day may get along just fine with a "storageless gasser."

Thanks for the compliment.
However...... every time I hear someone say something like that about me, I get nervous. Usually means that I'm about to find out something I didn't know...........the hard way.

 

[Fred61]

If I had a boiler without storage, I wouldn't attempt to run it unless outdoor temps were steadily in the 40* range or less. There's just too much idle time without storage when the weather is like we have been experiencing lately.
I've been getting lot's of phone calls from people with many different brands of equipment around here too so don't feel alone. The common denominator in all the systems with condensation problems is no storage.

Although I have a ton of respect for your knowledge on all things hydronic, I have to cast a dissenting vote for a blanket statement like this. We routinely run the Econoburn when temps are bouncing all over the map for days on end. The key to doing this successfully is right-sizing the fires. On any given shoulder-season day I'll build a small (1/4 full) fire in the morning and go to work. Later, my wife throws on a few more splits and then eventually shuts everything down empty, at a high temp (for better restart), with the down time lasting all afternoon. Then maybe another smallish fire for the evening and down again for the rest of the night. The pattern varies according to the current and upcoming Weather conditions - some days more frequent/bigger fires, other days fewer. This has been working really well for us for 3 years, but would it work for everyone? - definitely not. Our boiler and wood are in the basement - if your boiler is a distance from the house, doing what I described is a PITA. Also, some folks don't have a person around all day to tend fires, which also works against the small fire approach. But, under the right conditions and circumstances, this can work very well. I do however completely agree that loading a non-storage gasser to the gills on moderate days is grossly inefficient, and probably a short trip to boiler failure down the road.

Just as heatermans comments are considered a blanket statement, one could consider the assumption that all boilers perform the same as your Econoburn as a blanket statement.
The Wood Gun operates quite a bit differently from the Econoburn. Some condensation could be less apparent to the operator in the Econoburn.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

The storage - no storage issue comes up fairly often here. For the life of me I can't see a logical reason for it though.

I think that we all would agree that the Euro nations are 40 ish years ahead of us on these units.

I & many other members have trolled many Euro sites & I have yet to find one that recommends that a wood burning appliance such as these, run without storage. Most recommend exactly the opposite.

Some Euro nations require storage (written into building code). That makes it a requirement for the homeowner, manufacturer, re seller (agent), engineer, general contractor & heating contractor. Some nations manufacturers have agreed that they will not sell a unit without adequate storage through their associations. Why is that?

In the 50's post WWII they were installing these without storage everywhere as there was little material available for storage vessels. Post WWII almost every commodity was in short supply, anyhow they found out the hard way that running these units in a burn & smolder mode long term was resulting in a lot of building fires related to the creosote production of operating in burn & smolder. No big secret there, I think every former owner of a pre EPA stove can identify with creosote fires & their nasty consequences. They simply are a fact in many appliances that operate in burn & smolder or that burn unseasoned wood. If you are old enough to remember pre EPA stoves then you either had a nasty creosote fire or you know someone that did. They were that common.

If you look at the members that have been through a boiler or two, they are all running with storage. Again a new member should ask themselves, or those board members why that is? Why is it that the "been there done that" crowd is using storage, many at 1000 gallons or more. I have yet to hear any of these members say I wish I had used less storage, most would say the opposite, however in a lot of cases space is a limiting factor.

I have yet to see/read of a reputable North American hydronics/combustion engineer (someone who has something on the line) when they publish, recommend that a solid fuel burning appliance be run without storage. I have seen lots of info from less than reputable folks saying this, as well as a more than a few statements about defying the known laws of Physics & Thermodynamics (yep, go figure). I am sure many members recall the 99% eff claim by an OWB manufacturer, yep many of you had some fun with that one, I did too it's just that my wife had to scrape me off of the ceiling first before I could join in. (So be careful where you place your trust). ;-) :roll:

So to summarize, the main benefits of storage IMO are;

1) Safety: Burn hot-flat out-till the load is gone-rinse repeat, for about 30-40 years until the unit wears out. Next to zero creosote production provided one uses seasoned-less than 20% MC wood.
I think we can all agree that we don't wan't to go back to the days where we tore down the stove pipe every January thaw & took them outside to clean so we could feel safer using them for the balance of the winter.

2) Efficiency: Burn hot-flat out till the load is gone & drive all those btu's into storage, far fewer btu's wasted up the chimney x # of years unit runs that way = millions of wasted btu's/money & sweat equity for most.
Most of us work hard to get our wood laid in, why waste any of it?

3) Convenience: Turn that unit into something that operates more like a conventional heating appliance (provides heat when the t-stat asks for it) rather than something that requires your constant attention/vigilance.
Really we all want a more comfortable house, right? That's the primary reason we choose these units over a wood stove even though they cost far more.

OK rant over, feel free to have a go at me. Don't worry my hide is thick (skull too), I can take it. BTW this is not aimed at anyone just general comments storage/non storage.

 

[heaterman]

O Frozen One from Canuckistan! Your statement about anyone with a stake in the game recommending storage rings true.
I post as evidence to this the following statement from Seigenthaler's article I referenced in the post "mandatory reading".


The implication of burning wood hot and fast is that heat production is often far greater than required by the load. The only way to tame the beast in this situation is to add storage.

In the paragraph just previous to that statement he stated the the only way to achieve best efficiency was to burn the fuel hot and fast. Siggy knows what he speaks about.

If I knew how to convert a pdf file so it would post here I would submit the test results I saw for a Garn WHS2000. A garn is not a complicated device and in truth is probably not as technically advanced as some of the better European gasifers. What Martin Lunde saw all those years ago is that any wood burning device has to be designed around the limitations and vagaries of the fuel itself. The ability to burn the fuel (cordwood) under ideal conditions means that you do not cycle the fire. Period.

BTW........the 2000 tested using real cordwood at 88% efficiency and particulates were over 3 times less than allowed under EPA with their ridiculous cribbed wood test.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Yep for sure Heaterman, it's just the way these units were designed to run. Simple as that.

BTW folks don't take any of this as a personal assult, Heaterman & I realise that everyone's situation is different & unique. Just some basic facts thats all.

Another basic fact that I know I will deal with till the day I retire/become fertilizer is that fuel costs won't get high enough in my lifetime (probably) for the majority of folks to come to the realization that lowering the heatload as much as one reasonably can is the first thing to address, then you choose a heating unit to handle that load.

Right now we are IMO backwards, we build big & cheap, then we address the heatload almost as an after thought. Guess what, when done this way the heatload is always far larger than need be for any given size/shape/type of structure. Costs far more in fuel too for the life of the building to save a little upfront. Most cases the building owner winds up backwards on the deal, spends far more in heating costs than the cost of a quality job, usually around year 10 it starts to go backwards for the owner, more spent in heating costs than was saved in lower const costs. Hence the insulation retro fit industry! Makes $en$e.

Typically I will see homes that have a 200,000 btu/hr NG unit in them, when I run the heatloss calc it tells me that if that house had simply been insulated to better than minimum code it would require a 100,000 btu/hr unit or in other words 1/2 the fuel cost for the life of the home. If folks would take the time to do the math up front.....well they would soon realise just how cheap insulation really is. Said it many times before....insulation is by far the fastest ROI in your home. Nothing else including the heating system you choose even comes close. That said there is no downside to taking your time & choosing a quality system to heat your home.

Don't get me wrong folks I can still build your McMansion (starter castle) it's just that if I have my way it will use as few btu's/sq.ft as I can manage given site conditions & your floor plan. BTW it wont be long now until one of us cracks the 5 (five) btu/sq.ft in net zero housing up here, as we have gotten closer we have all noticed a lot more interest from the commercial & industrial sector as well. You can almost hear them drool, thinking of all the dollars they could save in their heating bills for an 80,000 sq.ft building. ;-)

 

[willworkforwood]

The storage - no storage issue comes up fairly often here. For the life of me I can't see a logical reason for it though.
....

There had been no mention of running storage vs non-storage. Heaterman stated his preference to not run non-storage boilers in shoulder-type conditions, and I disagreed, saying it could be done with the right methods. I would never disagree that running storage is better than non-storage, but that was not a factor in our discussion. And, just as an aside, we've collectively probably pulled off the biggest hijack in Hearth history - apologies to the op :red:

 

[infinitymike]

While I did have some condensation in the tray in wood mode my main problem was when running the oil burner.
Insulating the pipe from the boiler and the entire cyclone helped a lot. I even have some insulation between the concrete floor and the tray drawer compartment.

Do you mean the small steel pipe from the side of the boiler to the ash collector?
Or the stove pipe off the top of the ash collector? Do you have a picture?

FYI I have a 48" long un insulated double wall pipe (stainless on the inside and black pipe on the exterior) coming off the top of the fly ash collector to the insulated stainless double wall pipe that is 72" going through the roof.
The black ceiling support box is stuffed with Roxul insulation.

The garage is basically uninsulated. Where ever there is sheetrock there is insulation, which is not very much. I have thermometer about 5' away and it is reading 60*

Should I build a chase around the pipe, from the ceiling to the bottom of the ash tray, stuff it with Roxul insulation? I would put an access door to get the ash pan out. I would also make the front panel completely removable so as to access the pipe itself.

(broken image removed)
By infinitymike at 2011-11-26

 

[goosegunner]

Mike,

Is that condensation run marks on the lower door in your picture?

Where are you storing your wood?

If you can get an area in the garage closed in around your boiler it will really help you out with drying your wood. Split it small and let the waste heat from boiler dry it for a few days to a week.

gg

 

[infinitymike]

The storage - no storage issue comes up fairly often here. For the life of me I can't see a logical reason for it though.
....

There had been no mention of running storage vs non-storage. Heaterman stated his preference to not run non-storage boilers in shoulder-type conditions, and I disagreed, saying it could be done with the right methods. I would never disagree that running storage is better than non-storage, but that was not a factor in our discussion. And, just as an aside, we've collectively probably pulled off the biggest hijack in Hearth history - apologies to the op :red:

No apologies needed. I actually enjoyed it. And I will tell you all, that although I've only been burning for less then a week with average high temps of 60 and average low temps of 50 I can TOTALLY see the NEED and benefits of storage as well as burning dry wood. After two days of burning I had so much creosote in the fire box I actually took off the pipe from the ash collector to the ceiling box to look inside. Other than just black powdery soot it was clean. The ceiling of my firebox has huge pimples of black tar. I've scraped off the door jambs and air intake valve huge "skins" of creosote, some had watery fluid in it. I know that the temperatures are not helping nor is my unseasoned wood and the lack of storage. But my biggest problem is my inexperience with burning... period. I believe that the more I burn and the longer I stay on this forum, the more I will learn and better I will get at it.

Thanks Guys

 

[infinitymike]

No. They are actually creosote marks from one of the first fires. The lower hinge wasn't set properly and the was a tiny gap,so it dripped out. But you can by that alone how poorly I am burning. I have plans to build a rack right next to the unit that will either be 2'x4'x7' or 4'x4'x7' Right now my wood is outside but is top covered. I have been bringing a small amount in. I also have been respliting the splits in halves and even thirds.

 

[muncybob]

Mike, ALL piping from boiler to ash pan are insulated including the short run of pipe to the stack above the pan area. Initially I used some fiberglass R19 I had laying around and this helped. Later I used some left over high temp insulation I had from when I insulated the 6' inclined run piping from the boiler to chimney. I see you have a vertical pipe from the cyclone where as mine is the inclined horizontal run to my chimney, not sure if this has anything to do with your situation?

 

[infinitymike]

I see you have a vertical pipe from the cyclone where as mine is the inclined horizontal run to my chimney, not sure if this has anything to do with your situation?

It may, it is only a 10 foot straight run from the cyclone to the rain cap.

What about people who have gassiers or outdoor wood boilers in out buildings or sheds? some of those things look like they only have a 3 or 4 foot stack.
I wonder if they have the same problem. Or maybe they don't notice it if they come off the unit with a 90* elbow and then the straight pipe. Maybe the condensation lays in the elbow and eventually evaporates.

Time will tell, as I get a little more understanding of the burning process.

 

[Countryboy1966]

I have an OWB in a metal shed. I will post pics later.

I have a total of 8' of 6"dia pipe with a cleanout Tee at the back of the boiler. With the temperatures and my boiler more less idling, I'm fighting creasote and condensation. creasote coming out everywhere.

The stack fills up with creasote and this residue then I have a very hot burn once a week to dry it out. I then clean the stack out.

Sometimes an induced chimney fire helps, but obviously not a good idea with your set up.

First season I have had this problem. Last few years I had to have very hot fires to bring reasonable temp water to the house, but that issue was from water line size/circulation issues.