Chimney flu

[cyberwolf]

Hello,

First of all, thank you for providing a place for people to come and ask questions about chimney's, etc. Before I ask my question I'll give you a bit of background information. This house was built in 1995. We purchased it in 1997. The house is two story and the "fireplace" is in the living room. This house is like a barn in the winter, cool and hard to heat. We ended up putting a wood stove insert into the fireplace. Early on I had it cleaned a couple times but the last several years I've had it done annually by the same company. In 2003 they put on a new cap. My receipt says it has a six year warranty. I think maybe the fellow who cleaned it in 2005 mentioned that the liner might have a crack, and to be honest, I didn't pay too much attention to him. We were wanting to sell and move to a smaller home. Also in 2005 the cleaner had to pull the stove out to get all the stuff in there. Last year when I called they said the owner was coming out. He came last November. He said the cap was cracked and the flu liner had a crack in it. I told him the cap was only three years old. I told him we wanted to sell the house, and he said, he felt like we really needed to replace the liner whether we were selling or not. I told him to check into prices and get back to me. He also said he would check on the cap warranty. I called last Friday and left a message for the owner. He hasn't called back yet. It seems I may have called him once before, since November and he said he knew he needed to get back to me with new liner information,etc. Well today I called again and the girl said he was out working but planned to call today. Geez..sorry this is so long!! This man is a member of N.C.S.G.
Here are my questions. Oh, one more thing, last November again they had to pull the wood stove out to get it all. So based on this information do you think it would be wise to replace liner? Do you know if my homeowners insurance policy would cover it.? About how much do they cost?
We live in northeast Oklahoma, about fifty miles northeast of Tulsa. We can have very cold winters and the only way to really heat this house is to burn wood. We go through about 5-8 rik a season.
I thank you in advance for taking the time to help my husband and me. Thanks a lot..susan

 

[Metal]

So the house was built in 2005, but you had a new cap installed in 2003? Then you just bought the house this year (2007)? This is a little confusing to say the least.

If you don't trust the sweep, get a second opinion. Your homeowner's insurance won't cover it, although if it caused smoke/fire damage that would be covered. Cost is based on diameter, length, type of installation, etc.

 

[cyberwolf]

Hi,

Thanks for answering and I'm so sorry for the confusion. The house was built in 1995, we bought it in 1997, cap replaced in 2003, and last November 2006 he said the cap was cracked along with the crack in the liner.

Thanks again,

Susan

 

[cyberwolf]

Hello,

I went back and tried to correct some of the things in my first post. What a mess! I was in a hurry and didn't go over it.

I'm from California and have never (till now) had experience with fireplaces or wood stove.

I wasn't sure if a crack in the liner always required a new liner.

I wondered if it was common to pull the insert out when sweeping the chimney. They pulled the insert out both in 2005, and 2006 but they had never done that before. Maybe I thought there was a connection to pulling the insert and the liner being cracked. I just don't know enough about all this.

The bottom line is, if it's dangerous enough to cause a fire, then we will have it replaced. I think when he said a liner would cost $2,000 or so, I was surprised it was so expensive. I'm not sure if he mentioned the homeowner's policy or if I brought it up. I know I'd been thinking about calling the insurance company to ask them but just hadn't done it.

I have no reason not to trust this man. I guess I just didn't realize how serious all this is. He was very nice and seemed to know his business. He was here a long time and he was also talking to my husband about bringing his son out here to hunt.

I'm sorry for my first confusing post.
Thanks again,
susan

 

[jtp10181]

Do you know what kind of insert you had put in?
Do you know what kind of liner they installed?
Is it a full liner all the way up to the cap?
Is the liner insulated?
Why did they replace the cap the first time?
Have you ever had a chimney fire?
Is the OLD fireplace masonry or pre-fab metal?

If the liner was installed after 1997, if its a decent brand there is a chance it is under warranty still.

I've never really heard of a SS liner getting a "crack". Normally they could get rust holes after some chimney fires or years of neglect. Any break or crack or holes in the liner would be dangerous and it should not be used if its true. Its possibly he was saying the clay flue tiles had cracks in them? This would only be a problem if there is not a full liner all the way up. I can't really comment on the liner price that much but $2000 seems like a lot unless its a higher end product and that price includes install.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

if its duravent , i believe they have a 25 year warranty from the factory ( they do on pipe so i assume that the liners would as well, most brands have similar warrantees 2k for the liner HAS to include installation, but id suggest strongly doing it before using the stove if there is a crack in it, even if it is enclosed in a masonary chimney , you can still get a chimney fire from creosote buildup which can damage the chimney itself in some cases.

 

[cyberwolf]

Hi,

Well I guess I'm a complete idiot. My husband is home now and I have new information.

We bought my father in law's Colonyhearth insert not too long after we moved here in 1997. (The insert is about 20 yr.old, now)
There is NO liner. It's clay flu tiles.
The clay tiles go all the way up.
Regarding the "cap" it's a rain cap. When we moved here there was no rain cap. We had one put on and it rusted out so had a new rain cap put on in 2003.
As far as us having a chimney fire, we don't really know. The sweep that told us about the cracked tiles said he thought we probably had had a fire.
The chimney is all masonry.
When I read your sentence about the clay tiles having a crack, my husband said, that's exactly what the sweep person said.

I really appreciate your help. I'm sorry I didn't really understand what I was talking about.
My husband said the sweep person said to fix these cracks we would have to install a liner.
Thanks again,
susan

 

[BrotherBart]

Edit: Susan and I were typing at the same time.

I think we are talking about a slide in installation into a fireplace without a stainless liner. The clue being that they pulled the insert to clean the flue. Something I had twenty years of practice doing. Cracked tiles and cap sound like a little chimney fire action has been going on.

Note to Mike: Limited lifetime (means we WILL find a way to not honor it) on Simpson 316ti Dura Flex liners. I have one inbound that should be here next week. The husky double wall liner that survived the two 1,200 degree blasts from Old Brownie is now in the landfill. Don't trust it anymore. I figure a ten year warranty from a company I can find two weeks from now beats the heck out of the "lifetime" warranties from places like (broken link removed).

 

[jtp10181]

You should take his recommendation and get a full liner, sounds like you have a "slammer" install which is not listed for most stoves and is not usually safe.

I am not familiar with that insert but others can comment on this. Is it maybe time to consider a whole new insert plus a full reline?

 

[elkimmeg]

cyber woolf you have been taken the first cap was crap lasting only 7 years wasted money A flue cap does not take the place of the oncrete chimney cap if it is cracked then v it out and add concrete patch from a caulking gut the second cap did not prevent the concerte cap from craking so it too is useless AN ADDED EXPENSISE YOUR WERE SOLD many chimneys can withstand weather 200 years with out a cap. the flue tile crack at the top section embeded in a concrete cap can't go anywhere and is almost a non issue Connon aging process , why not replace the top clay flue section a lot cheaper than a full linsr. the 20 plus year stove in not epa approved and in your state will have to be removed and destroyed unon vhange in ownership.
the reason it has to be pulled out is it is not attached to any liner at all today's codes a even when the home was built in the mid 90's it was il;legally installed probably without a permit od inspection. It never should have been installed illegal from day one my advice to you is to remove it and not let it be part of the home for sale laws and codes will require its removal anyways.

Lining the clay flues to that stove is useless, because you state will not allow it to pass on to the next owner You will be required to remove it and offer a destination slip of proper disposal.

installing 15 more caps will not make the existing stove any more illegal

 

[BrotherBart]

Colony Hearth inserts were made by the old Earthstove company. I think Lennox bought them out. At a minimum that chimney needs relining. Those old stoves tossed a lot of flamable creosote onto the chimney walls. I replaced one of that style but a different brand last year and lined the chimney.

On the insurance issue. A lot of insurance companies have paid for relining after chimney fires. Talk to the sweep about certifying to the insurance company that a chimney fire caused the damage and they very probably will pick up the tab. Two of my friends have done that. I couldn't do it because even with all of the small chimney fires over the years my flue tiles were fine. Well except for one on the very top of one flue that cracked because of temperature differential.

 

[cyberwolf]

Hi to all of you,

Thanks so much for all your help and knowledge. Wow, it seems to get more confusing as the night wears on. My husband has gone to bed (he works at cement plant, and gets up at 4:00) so I'll show him all this tomorrow evening.

We moved here in April of 1997, and didn't need the heat right away. That fall, when we started to need heat, we realized the two heater/ac units, one up and one down stairs wern't doing much to warm the house. We bought some wood and built a few fires in the fireplace. It didn't seem to help much with heat. At about the same time my husband's dad decided to put a propane stove in and offered us his wood stove, the Colony Heath insert. About four of them moved it out here and slipped it in. No permits, no nothing. We didn't have any idea we needed that kind of stuff. We live 3 miles from town, back in the woods on 20 acres. We don't even have a neighbor.

This house is two story, but all open. The ceiling here in the living room is probably 16ft or so. The house is big and has 34 windows, and that alone makes it harder to heat and cool. The only reason we are even here is my mother had a stroke in California in the fall of 1996, and we had to move she and my stepdad back here to live iwth us. I had to quit my job and care for her. We lived in town, in a small brick home and I thought I could get mom back on the road to good health and send them back to California where they wanted to live anyway. We also had two sons living at home then, and there wasn't enough room for all of us in that house. They are my stepsons and are now on their own. In fact, the younger one (23) is in Iraq. After a couple of months we all knew that they would be here till the end. So the folks bought this house and my husband and I took care of them here. Mom passed away in 2000, and Ernie, my stepdad passed away in 2004. So now, we are alone and this place to darn big for two people, and like I said before we'd like to sell but we aren't sure what we want. All we have really done is talk about moving. We know we don't want to live in town again. Don likes to hunt on this 20 acres, but its too much house and work, both inside and outside for us now. We'd like a couple acres and a smaller house. The market isn't right for selling right now, and we would have to sell this first to buy next place. We now realize that we will probably be here another year or two.

It sounds like we have been very lucky not to have had a fire or something. I don't know why the chimney top wasn't finished when the house was built or why we didn't notice it. We''ve found several things that were not finished then. A fellow named Steve Crawford, who used to play pro baseball bought this land and he built this house. That's probably the first problem. The next problem is we didn't realize we probably never should have put that insert in here or at least ask someone what we needed to do if we put one in.

One of you said according to our state laws when we do sell we will have to get rid of this stove before we can sell anyway. I'm thinking we need a new wood stove insert and we need to put a liner in and have it all done by people who know what they are doing. Also, I guess we need to do something about the cap, but if we do all this, whoever we find, hopefully will know what we need at the top of chimney.

It's a lot to think about, and I'm worried about the cost of everything but our lives are worth more of course, and we will find a way to do it all. I'm afraid to use it again like it is. When they pulled the insert out those two times you wouldn't believe how much black crap there was.

That stove was a life saver this past January. We had a horrible ice storm that lasted 12 days here in Oklahoma. The power was off all that time and we are all electric. We just stayed downstairs, had a fire in the stove but of course no blower to turn on. We had coal oil lamps for light, a portable radio, and I was able to cook on the stove. It was kind of fun at first for me, being from California and all. It got old real quick, but you do what you have to do.

Well now you know a little more about the whole situation, and I'm sure I've bored you to tears with too much information but that's just the way I am. I have to tell the whole story. So thanks to people like you who take the time to come here and help out people like us, we are very lucky, you may have saved our lives. Thank you so much.

If you think of any other information I need, just let me know. I'm not sure if the chimney sweep company puts in new stoves or not but I think I'd like to deal with a company that can sell us a stove and put the liner in too, if thats possible.

I've got to get on this pretty quick. Don and I have a weeks vacation starting the 7th of September. We've rented a house on Lake Pend Orille in northern Idaho. It's way up north in the panhandle area. I just hope Don catches a lot of fish. We'like renting vacation homes because it's cheaper and you can cook righ there and not feel like you have to go out to eat all your meals. I've seen the snow fly here in Oklahoma on Halloween and that isn't that far off. I'm not sure where to start but I'll figure that out. Just like I found you all, I'll find what we need.

I'll let you know what happens and thanks again.... ..susan

 

[Gooserider]

It sounds to me like what you need is a modern EPA II approved insert, and an insulated liner to match. This will be fairly expensive, but the good news is you will greatly increase your safety, and will also find that you get more heat with less wood, as the modern stoves are MUCH more efficient in the way they operate. You may need some repair work to the masonry at the top of your chimney, but this shouldn't be to bad if you are installing a liner.

If you feel good about your current sweep, I would talk to them about what services they offer, whether they do installations, stove sales, etc. and if they don't, who they reccomend.

In the meantime - if you can, post some pictures of your existing setup, and answer as many of these questions as you can...

1. What is the size of the existing fireplace? - We need the firebox dimensions - Height, Width and Depth - if the firebox is tapered, give us both the front and back dimensions.

How deep is the hearth (front to back?) - you may need to extend it, many inserts stick out of the fireplace a bit, and code now requires an 18" hearth width in front of any loading doors.

Do you have any wooden mantles or other combustible trim near the fireplace opening? If so, we need the distance to the wood and how far out it sticks - again this might need modification or protection.

2. What is the size of the current flue tiles?

3. What is the height of the current chimney?

4. What is the square foot size of the house? - I know you said it was poorly insulated and had lots of windows, have you looked into doing more weather sealing? Stopping the heat you have from leaving can give better returns than trying to improve your existing heat. Do you have storm windows, or at least modern insulated ones? How is your weather stripping?

5. What is your local weather like - what is your typical winter temperature? How cold does it get, and how long does it stay that cold?

6. What sort of style do you like / what's in the house? A clean "modern" look, or something more ornate and "old timey" (or "we don't care how it looks")

This sort of information will help us reccomend what size insert you should be considering, and reccomend possible models to consider.

Gooserider