Brand new here and need help with Jotul decision.....

[ImWorkinOnIt]

I've read all the Jotul references in the 2200 Questions section & feel confident that the Jotul F 3 CB is a fine stove to own. I have some questions I'd like help with, but let me give you some info so you'll know what I'm talking about.

We have a pre-fab fireplace that's over 30 years old in our 2 bedroom condo, where we plan on building out a loft area within the next year-total would be maybe 1400-1500sf at the most. We've burned wood for years and I've thought I wanted a wood stove/insert for years. Just last weekend we went to the nearest Buck stove dealerto 'play' with the doors and knobs just to get a feel for the stoves, because in our city, NOONE has any on the showroom floor that we can actually see! They had some cast iron gas stoves there that were beautiful.

Currently we have a stone surround, glass doors, with a plank mantle that's located between 2 sliding glass doors, and I mean between with NO room on either side for anything else! I've wanted to change the stone to tile and a mantle surround but wasn't sure that would be appropriate for an insert but figured I'd ask what we could do to change the appearance the closer we got to actually buying a stove, so I'm open to remodeling the entire fireplace area.

I hadn't decided what kind of stove/insert we wanted but since our living room is small I was leaning toward an insert since a stove would require a LOT more remodeling than an insert would. I know some stoves require a masonery chimney while others can be used in a pre-fab so I've tried to keep that in mind, but one of the fireplace dealers here, when I inquired about an insert, said they were just stoves without legs, so I realize I have to be careful that I know what I'm talking about and WHO I'm talking to!

All that to get to this point: I just this AM I found someone online who's going to be selling a Jotul this weekend because they're moving. It's the F 3 CB. I inquired about it and found out that it's a stove but it's been sitting inside his fireplace (I don't know if that means sitting in there without legs and snug up to the sides of the firebox or if he has a HUGE fireplace but I'll find out.) He says his parents gave it to him this past Christmas so he hasn't used it but a couple of months and it heated 3 uninsulated rooms with 10' ceilings.

I've known about this brand for years and know it's good and looked at the manufacturer's site and I think this particular stove is pretty, so quality and appearance are both fine. But I have no idea about price. He wants to sell it for $1000 and said he didn't know what could possibly go wrong with it.

Of course I'm thinking......he could have built fires too hot and cracked the body or something, so there ARE things that could go wrong in that length of time, but I doubt it. I just think he wants to get as much for it as he can. Is $1000 too high for a slightly used model? I was hoping for more like $700 because someone told me on a survival forum I'm on that the stoves sell new for $800-1000--after all he's selling in the South in the middle of July for pete's sake.

What all should I check for when I inspect this stove to make certain that it is in good enough condition to shell out $1000 for it? Should it have a cat & blower for that price or not? That model description says it non-cat if I read it correctly. And CAN it be used as an insert even though it's supposed to be a 'stove' as long as the chimney meets all codes for a hotter burning appliance than the pre-fab firebox? I figured I'd ask at the fire station to see if I could find someone to install it who knows what they're doing or if they could recommend someone for me to use. My next best idea was to call our reliable chimney cleaning company and ask them for installer referrals. Is that a good idea or should I start some other way to find someone reputable to install for me?

And one last question.......I have large lazy cats......am I asking for trouble getting a stove they can jump up on instead of an insert that they can't perch on? I know you're supposed to be able to cook on top of the stoves in a pinch, but I don't want to injure my cats because they tried it out -- is there something you can put on top to keep it from heating up quite so hot to the touch?

Sorry this is rambling, my mind is fluttering about with excitement, but I'm trying to stay calm and think through this all much faster than I'd anticipated doing so soon!

THANKS!

Rose

 

[webbie]

The Jotul F3 CB does not have a catalytic - it is a non-cat stove.
It also does not have a blower - as I remember, although it is possible they have come up with one since. I should say that such a stove does not need a blower.

I don't have current prices for that stove, but my guess is about $1100 in black and 250 more in enamel colors, so it may be that the price is high.

Chances are that the stove is in good condition, since this is a capable model and unlikely to "melt down" in a year or two of use. There is an article in the wiki about buying a used stove, but basically you want to look for overfired or warped castings. Over fired castings usually get an orange-red color and may grow in size and possible crack or fissure.....look at the liners and the baffle.

But at that price, you might want to think twice before you pursue further.

Now for the important part - you will find a lot of info here about why MOST stoves cannot be installed into a pre-fab fireplace. The exception are small inserts which specifically address such an installation in the manual. In other words, you cannot install this Jotul out in the room and then vent it up the chimney.......at least not in my opinion or experience.

 

[myzamboni]

In the SF Bay Area, the F3 CB goes for $1479 in black +250 for enamel colors (although my dealer had a surplus of green enamel he would sell for the same price as black).

I had to get rid of my pre-fab fireplace to install the F3CB. The fortunate thing is the hole in the ceiling and roof matched up perfect for a clos-clearance install (lucky me).

 

[webbie]

You can tell I sold my shop in 1998 - that's about how far behind my prices are! Sorry!
Price may be less in the east - in fact, it probably is....but maybe only $100 or so.

 

[BrotherBart]

Recommended retail for the F3CB:

<snip>

Picked up the wrong price sheet.

 

[ImWorkinOnIt]

I finally got through to a dealer here in town who actually knew where their price list was, so I now know that here in Birmingham they range from $1200-1649 ($1200 for the black matt finish, $1649 for the white with green and iron being $1599)

They also gave me the number for American Professional Chimney Service which is a group of firemen who do chimney work -- I knew about them but couldn't remember the name of the company.

I called and talked to a fella there who says I would have to have the short legs and he might have to take the top off of something to make it fit -- I don't know if he meant the top of the stove itself or the top of something inside my fireplace.

He also said it would cost around $1200-1600 to install, incl liner pipe, cap, etc.

Is there a way to get the existing pipe out of the chimney so they could reuse it -- there ISN'T is there!??

I think the guy's parents told him the ENTIRE cost of the gift -- the unit + the installation, but of course the installation is just lost money since any other buyer would have some or all of the same costs involved.

I'm seriously considering getting this thing and then if I find out I can't use it, I can probably resell it closer to the season when more people are shopping for it, and get my money back!

Wonder how much the short legs cost -- should they be around $100 or more like $50??

Thanks for all your input, if you can think of anything else I need to ask him, please let me know -- I feel like such a dufus at this point!

Rose

 

[webbie]

Once again, let me be clear about using this in your ZC fireplace - I don't think it is legal to do so even with a relining! I will download the Jotul manual and check it.

Here is the short wiki article:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Convert_Prefab_Fireplace/

OK, I just checked the Jotul manual and it only shows masonry fireplace installations. So although it may be possible to install such a unit with some degree of safety (way out front of fireplace, chimney lined, heat shields), this is not a common or approved installation.

 

[BrotherBart]

Go get a look at the stove and don't make a hasty buy. A stove, flue and installation is going to be a significant and long term investment. The standard leg on the F3CB is eight and a half inches high. The short leg kit lowers the stove two and a quarter inches. Prices are different for plain flat black legs and enameled ones. If the stove is already sitting in a fireplace it most likely already has short legs installed. I am not a Jotul dealer but I have a few new short leg kits for the F3cb available in black, blue/black enamel and ivory enamel.

Go get a look at the stove, and take a few pictures, and then you can make a more informed decision. If it is an enameled stove then $1,000 isn't a bad price. If it is flat black you probably can find one for less given a little time and shopping. Maybe not enough less to make it worth the wait and running around though if this one is truly in great condition and has the short legs.

 

[ImWorkinOnIt]

Hi Craig,

I read your message and understand you think this may be an impossiblity to install the unit I'm considering in a fireplace as a zero clearance or even a partially recessed unit.

When the fella gave me the link to the stove I pulled up the manual and saw that it gave instructions for a pre-fab chimney.......I assumed that meant that a pre-fab firebox would be OK, too. Is there a difference in a chimney that goes with a pre-fab firebox and some other kind of pre-fab chimney? I'm so new to all this and I tend to interpret things I read very literally, so if a term is interchangeable it can throw me off!

I assumed that there was a masonary fireplace with a masonary chimney, and a pre-fab fireplace with a pre-fab chimney, but I don't know but what there might be such a thing as a mix.

At any rate, why would there be instruction for a pre-fab chimney if you couldn't install it in a pre-fab situation?

Here at the condos a few years back, we have had someone install an insert, but I don't know who it was or whether it's still there, what kind it was, whether it was installed properly, how well it functioned, etc., I just remember being on the board and after we had all the chimneys cleaned we learned from the chimney cleaners that there was an insert in one so the chimney crew couldn't clean that chimney under 'our' contract with them -- they would have to do it for the owner personally. No one on the board seemed the least bit disturbed byknowing there was one installed here on the property, but then I doubt anyone knew much about them -- now that I DO know, I'd be having owners show proof of correct installation before allowing them! Which means *I* need to do everything like I would expect anyone else to. Just because my husband is president of the board doesn't mean we can slip up and do something not by the book.

Please let me know why you think it won't work in my fireplace, or what I'd have to modify in order to make it work, if at all possible.

thanks for all the input -- if I can't buy this one, I need to figure out what I CAN buy that would work in my situation.......there are very few pre-fab inserts out there to choose from, it shouldn't be a hard search, I guess,

Rose

 

[Gooserider]

A few points I haven't seen mentioned yet...

1. Cats are NOT stupid! They will enjoy curling up in front of the stove, but they won't jump on it when it's lit - at least not twice...

2. There are two or three different kinds of fireplaces and chimneys, and sometimes it can be hard to tell them apart. The most obvious is a masonry fireplace, which is made from bricks or equivalent, and has some fairly significant clearance requirements for it's construction. Next is the metal "Heatform" type fireplace, which uses a steel box body, usually with air passages in it to get more heat out of the unit, but which has the same kinds of clearance requirements as a masonry fireplace. Both of these will usually have a masonry chimney, usually lined with clay flue tiles, but may use a pre-fabricated "Class A" type metal chimney. The third type is the "Zero Clearance" or ZC fireplace, also prefabricated out of metal, but installed with much lower clearance requirements than the others. This type of unit will normally be installed with a special manufacturer specific chimney that is designed as a system with the fireplace.

Regular chimneys, and "Class A" prefabricated chimneys can be used with a liner, and within certain limits it is no problem to install an insert or stove into one. However ZC units have been specially engineered to use their designs to allow them to be installed with reduced clearances to combustibles, and modifications are mostly prohibited from concerns that changing the heat flows in the ZC firebox or chimney could cause the exterior to overheat and become a firehazard. The ONLY code approved way to install an insert is to use one that has been specifically certified by the manufacturer to be acceptable for installation in that exact make and model of ZC unit, and then only if installed exactly per the manual. There are a few inserts that are like this, but it takes some digging to find them, and you also have to ID the ZC which can be a challenge to see if it is an accepted combo.

Exact situations vary, but usually the best approach is to rip out the ZC firebox and chimney, and replace it with a "Class A" chimney connected to a woodstove. An insert can only be used in a firebox, and it isn't worth the extra effort to make a firebox just to put an insert into it...

3. Haven't seen this asked yet, but what kind of burning do you plan to do? Primary heat burning 24/7 or supplemental Evenings and Weekends only, or occasional "look at the fire" burns? If doing a lot of burning consider the firebox size - even though a smaller unit might be able to heat your living space, you pretty much need a MINIMUM 2-2.5 cu. ft. firebox if you are going to get 8 hour or better burns. I don't have the Jotul catalog memorized, but there have been several threads where members were unhappy with short burn times on the F3CB requiring them to get up in the middle of the night to reload, and saying the Castine was the smallest Jotul a 24/7 burner should consider.

Gooserider

 

[stoveguy2esw]

hi rose,

for the record, GOOSE and Craig are exactly right. to be certain if the unit you are referring to will be installable, the fireplace in question absolutely CANNOT be a zero clearance. just to give bonifides, we do not have a ZC insert either ,no sales pitches from me in here anyway.

EDIT: my cats love to lay in front of the stove but they dont get on it , even in the summertime when its obviously not burning, put down a hearth rug in front of the unit once installed and you will never have to look past that rug in the winter to find your cats