My 118 cb Black Bear experience, and questions about replacement

[jeffee]

I've had my new Jotul 118cb black bear for nearly 4 years now. After the second winter, the top baffle was slightly twisted and slightly cracked. It was replaced. After the following winter, the new baffle was slightly (a bit more) twisted and cracked. This was replaced, at my cost (200 including parts and labor). Now I have noticed that both side baffle plates are cracked. Needless to say, I believe I need a new stove. I do not run the stove over 600 degrees, and usually closer to 500 or so, thermometer in the center of the stove top. More often then not, I let the stove go out at night, as the wood that my house is made of has stored some heat and keeps my bedroom (loft) warm enough. Every morning I make a fire and heat the house up.

The two stoves I am thinking of replacing this with are the Oslo and the Avalon Spokane 1750. I would need to have wall protection put in if the Oslo, but not for the Avalon. I don't know how the steel stove heat would feel as opposed to iron, and part of the main room of the house has a cathedral ceiling, although not right above the stove. Also, realistically I probably cannot afford the Oslo. Any feedback would be much appreciated. I must say I am quite disappointed with Jotul. I wish I could afford to replace the stove -- I can't really, but I also feel that I can't afford not to.

This link has info on my setup
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/10400/

Thank you!
-Jeff

Edit: I am referring to the Jotul F 118 or F118 or F 118 CB or F118 CB or F118CB etc. thank you

 

[begreen]

Sorry to hear about these issues Jeff. The old style 118 was a nice heater, but you are not the first one to post about issues with the new 118. That is why I tried to steer you toward the F400. The secondary assembly in the F118CB is tricky to get right and not the best EPA mod. There was a thread on repairing this correctly a while back. I'll see if I can dig it up.

The Avalon would be a good stove. I would also look at the Napoleon 1400 series, or mid-sized SBI, EPA stoves from Osburn or Drolet.

 

[jeffee]

Thanks BeGreen. Yes I know you did -- had I known about these types of reliability issues with the 118, I would have looked into the Castine further. After researching for quite a while on this site, I only ever found complaints about fitting wood into the black bear, with the baffle sloping downwards etc. and that has never bothered me. I would still be open to the Castine, as the Oslo seems so big for my house, but now I'm quite confused about Jotul specs saying that the Casting can't heat an area as big as the 118, and now my experience with the 118. To tell you the truth I would love the 118, and it's size seems perfect for my application -- if it were not for the fact that it breaks.

 

[begreen]

I've been searching for the thread about rebuilding the manifold on this stove and can't find it. There were some mods suggested to improve it. Precaud, do you remember this one?

 

[AngusMac]

Hello Jeff,
I m sorry and surprised to hear about the bear problems.
We have been using a F118 CB for 3 years, this is its 4 th winter and we have had no issues at all.
We burn it between 300 to 500 deg., thats with the stove thermometer in the same place as yours, all the Iron work is as it should be.

Our bear throws out a lot of heat, much more than the 7kw (approx. 24000 btu) that the stove is advertised as. I reckon the output is more like 35,000 btu.
Is the bear not still under warranty?
I think I read somewhere that you should not re-light a fire when the cast is still warm.
One differance we have in our operation from you is that our Bear is burning 24/7 for 5 months of the year, the fire is never out, even when cleaning we push the embers to the back.
I see from the photo that you have a wood wall about 2 ft away and one at the back. I may be wrong, but does the bear not super heat this area?
I have had logs sit 2 ft away from the bear and they start cracking and bursting.

I dont think their will be much differance in output between the 5OO and the Bear.
I have only once had a steel stove and I didnt like them because the heat was not so comfortable as Cast (too sharp) and when the fire died down, they went freezing cold in the middle of the night.

 

[precaud]

BG, I don't recall any mods for the F118, I had bad experiences with two of these early on and was encouraging people to steer clear, no matter how much they liked the looks. There is a quality of fatal attraction to these old box stoves reworked for EPA specs that even I cannot resist...

Jeffee, very sorry to hear of your bad experience. At the risk of over-repeating myself, I would highly suggest that you avoid stoves that use cast iron lining materials, or exotic, complicated secondary air systems in the firebox. Keep it simple inside the firebox. Complexity in the air controls and distribution channels is ok, but once inside the firebox, keep it simple, with a minimum of exposed metal. That, more than anything, will assure you of trouble-free operation...

 

[jeffee]

Angus and Precaud thank you for your feedback--

Angus, yes it's close to the wall but within specified clearances -- I have a rear and side shield on the stove. Yes, it is a difference that I am restarting it every day as opposed to 24/7, I wonder if that is to account for my problems (?). I have not heard about what you mentioned about relighting warm cast iron -- that's interesting. Maybe steel would better fit my application (restarting every day)?

Precaud, aren't some of the other Jotuls lined with iron -- the Castine for example? What would you recommend that fulfills the criteria you suggest, in the Jotul or Avalon/Lopi line? Those are available through local dealers.

Thank you!

 

[jeffee]

I think I will pull the trigger on a Spokane 1750.

 

[precaud]

Jeffee, yes, many/most of the Jotuls are lined with iron, which is not good for a stove that starts from cold every day, in my opinion. See my experiments last year with the F602, replacing the iron liners with ceramic ones. Big difference. I'm not familiar with the Lopi line in detail, but from what I've seen, their approach to firebox design uses ceramic firebrick and stainless secondary tubes. It's proven over time to be a good tradeoff between reliability and performance. The tubes will likely have to be replaced at some point (many years), but it's something you can do yourself in a few minutes when the time comes. Make sure the baffle is removable - it makes for easy stove and chimney cleaning.

 

[precaud]

I think I will pull the trigger on a Spokane 1750.

The firebox is ceramic-lined with burn tubes, and baffle bricks can be removed, which is good. But it's a heavier and higher output stove than the F118... is that what you need?

 

[jeffee]

Thanks Precaud,
After my experience with the black bear, let's just say that I don't want to go smaller. Yes the 1750 is bigger, but I don't have to use the whole box. And the way I use the stove, I will be able to build hot fires in the morning, and let the stove go out, and build another fire when needed. I like the north south possibilities with this stove, it makes building a fire easier. I don't think the tubes are stainless, but as you say they should last a while, and I would be able to replace them if needed.

 

[precaud]

Yes, N/S is good, for sure. I'm just a little cautious about getting a bigger/heavier stove, since they will heat up slower. And when you're burning in a 5-6 hour window, quick warmup is a good thing...

I'm looking at the drawings in the manual, the tubes appear to be stainless, they'd be foolish to hang anything else out over the fire like that. The tubes are covered under the 5-year warranty. The 1750 has more exposed metal in their baffle brick support assembly than I'd like to see, but it's a big step in the right direction over the F118... if you decide to get one, I bet you'll love it.

 

[AngusMac]

Think about it long and hard Jeffe.
The Bear, understandably, has been a disappointment due to the inner castings.

Everyone here will have an opinion on what to buy.

I had a steel stove and it went freezing thru the night, they dont retain any heat, and the heat I found, was not so comfortable.

Doesnt mean to say I am right, just that I have placed importance on differant things.

I can see that you want something to fit in where the bear sits, it is not easy, unless you line the sides as you said.

I m not sure if vermiculite is used much by American manufacturers? I think its a great material as it insulates the burnbox making wood burning cleaner, especially with small loads.

Have a look at Morso US site, there are 2 stoves that are simmilar to the bear, the 2b standard, and the 2b classic. I think the standard uses vermiculite, tho I dont think it has the output of the bear!There is a lot on the market, so take your time.

 

[begreen]

What make & model steel stove did you have Angus? Modern, thick steel stoves with a layer of firebrick can retain heat quite well. There are many folks here with 2 cu ft steel stoves that get good overnight heat. Our next door neighbor is regularly chirping about having a warm stove and nice bed of coals in his PE Spectrum overnight. Also, the PE and suggested Napoleon stoves are jacketed stoves which soften's their heat. They are convection based heaters.

 

[AngusMac]

What make & model steel stove did you have Angus? Modern, thick steel stoves with a layer of firebrick can retain heat quite well. There are many folks here with 2 cu ft steel stoves that get good overnight heat. Our next door neighbor is regularly chirping about having a warm stove and nice bed of coals in his PE Spectrum overnight. Also, the PE and suggested Napoleon stoves are jacketed stoves which soften's their heat. They are convection based heaters.

Well, I m a little affraid to say, I was on another forum and mentioned it, and seeing as it is an English built stove, I nearly got lynched by the English guys, they are very proud of this stove that I called a piece of junk.
It was a make called Clearview, its even more expensive than a standard cast iron stove.
When it got hot the top used to swell up, scary, I kept it for 3 months then sold it and bought a f118.
I suppose because I had a bad experiance with steel I wont look near it again, however, I think cast has a lot more character, but its personal taste.

 

[begreen]

What?? The greenest stove on earth?! :lol: Good to know. It's not a make I have heard of until I just went to their website. Which model was this?

I was looking at the 5KW Pioneer 400 and see what you mean. At 220# dripping wet, it is not a very heavy stove.

 

[precaud]

At 220# dripping wet, it is not a very heavy stove.

And no wonder you feel it "didn't hold heat". The F118 is 380 lbs, much more heat storage.

It's all in the numbers and materials properties.

 

[AngusMac]

What?? The greenest stove on earth?! :lol: Good to know. It's not a make I have heard of until I just went to their website. Which model was this?

I was looking at the 5KW Pioneer 400 and see what you mean. At 220# dripping wet, it is not a very heavy stove.

I had the Clearview 650, I remember my brother looking at it and asking why I d bought a piece of cr@p.
Took me all of 2 days to realise what he meant.

I have to say tho, they are very clean burning, but for some reason, although you didnt see smoke, you would see a constant haze coming from the chimney, unlike our Morso you dont see smoke or a haze.

 

[jeffee]

Thanks folks. Angus, the 2b is too small, no? Precaud, do you have any recommendations?

Thanks!

 

[AngusMac]

At 220# dripping wet, it is not a very heavy stove.

And no wonder you feel it "didn't hold heat". The F118 is 380 lbs, much more heat storage.

It's all in the numbers and materials properties.

Oh, when we lifted the f118 into the house, the advice given to me was 'tighten up the pooper string'.

One of my sisters in law has just bought a heavier one, a Jotul 471, it weighs in at 205 kg thats about 450lbs

 

[AngusMac]

Thanks folks. Angus, the 2b is too small, no? Precaud, do you have any recommendations?

Thanks!

Sorry Jeffe, we ve got off the subject

 

[precaud]

Thanks folks. Angus, the 2b is too small, no? Precaud, do you have any recommendations? Thanks!

I'd pass on it. In terms of heat output, the 2B Standard is more like the F602 than the F118. The firebox is very small...

Cute stove, though. All the box stoves are.

 

[precaud]

Oh, when we lifted the f118 into the house, the advice given to me was 'tighten up the pooper string'.

yes, it would give those muscles a workout, for sure!

Angus, since you own and use both daily, I thought it might be useful if you give a comparison of the F118 and the 8140. Heat output, how quickly they warm up, the works. And do it before you go to bed tonight, please. :cheese:

 

[jeffee]

Precaud,
Do you have any recommendations for stoves?

Thanks

 

[precaud]

jeffee, I'm not as up on models across different stoves lines as I'd like to be. It really depends what brands are available in your area, from dealers you like/trust, especially if they're going to be installing it. I'm guessing part of the reason you chose the F118 is that its geometry fits well into your space. There aren't any other stoves like it, really.

Most stoves in that size range aren't configured for N/S burning, and I don't blame you at all for having that be a primary criteria. There may be others, but I only know of two which are: Quadrafire (3100) and PE (Super 27). I don't like the "ACC" automatic air design of the newer Quad steel stoves. That would leave me leaning toward the PE, though their stainless box secondary design bothers me conceptually, it has proven to work well and be reliable. These are both jacketed stoves and not side radiators like the F118.

Maybe others will chime in if they know of another N/S burner in that size range.