Closed System Water Additives

[WRVERMONT]

Any recommendations of a good additive for closed system hydonics. Benefits over pure water?

 

[pybyr]

Hi Peter-- here's what I've used, after looking into many options. Main advantage is that this helps assure oxygen removal and makes sure that the pH is slightly alkaline to reduce risk of corrosion. It handily has a pH indicator dye in it, which lets you easily check that you've added enough to reach the right pH during initial addition of the treatment-- and also allows easy later checks by draining a tiny sample of fluid and confirming that it is still the desired purple.

2 bottles, at a total cost of about $16 (obtained as a stock item at the local F.W. Webb) treated the whole pressurized side of my system; some of the product literature is at this link, too:

http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?site_id=1&product_id=172

Best regards

 

[stee6043]

I bought a granular treatment from the guys below. I was pleased with the service and the price was substantially better than anyone else. You will want to treat your water to prevent corrosion, among other things...

http://www.boilerandcoolingwater.com/?gclid=CKuHxOyh6p8CFd1L5QodR33Sfg

 

[joecool85]

FWIW, I've always been told that you shouldn't treat a closed system with anything, just have straight tap water.

 

[Gooserider]

FWIW, I've always been told that you shouldn't treat a closed system with anything, just have straight tap water.

All depends on the tap water and what's in it... If the water is fairly alkaline to begin with, it won't do bad things to run straight tap water, but acidic water can do a fair bit of damage before it's neutralized by corroding the system innards.... Adding treatment is cheap insurance IMHO.

Gooserider

 

[in hot water]

depends on what you want to spend to protect a multi thousand dollar investment

It does depend on the fill water somewhat. Stay away from real hard water or high TDS.

What a good conditioner has is O2 scavanger, ph balancers, a component to lock up hardness, and film providers. The film providers put a very thin coating on the surfaces to prevent corrosion from getting a start.

Like anything the more expensive brands of cleaners and conditioners have more "stuff" in them. Basic outdoor open system inhibitors are mainly an O2 scavanger, sodium sulfite is a common one.

I like the Rhomar Water products, they are $$. Their multi metal conditioners work in systems with steel, iron, brass, copper, stainless, and aluminum alloys. I think their 922 product has 30 some ingredients.

At the very least you should run a cleaner through the system. This removes the "soup" consisting of water solder flux, cutting oils, assembly lubes, and whatever else that is in new systems. Some brands have a cleaner that you can leave in the system.

If your fill water is hard, maybe 15 grains or more, consider blending some DI or DM (de-ionized or de-mineralized) water with it. Cleaners and inhibitors need good quality water to do their job properly. Using hard water with an inhibitor uses up part of the buffer package right away.

A test kit is a good idea, or send a sample every few years to the manufacturer of the conditioner.

Make sure the system is 100% leak free of course, maybe wait a week, or run a cleaner for several days first.

hr

 

[dogwood]

If you have a fair amount of storage, lets say 500 or 1000 gallons, what would be an economical way to treat that amount of water. Some of the products shown in this or other posts didn't seem to treat that kind of volume.

Mike

 

[pybyr]

FWIW, I've always been told that you shouldn't treat a closed system with anything, just have straight tap water.

When I was looking into this topic when doing my initial install, I asked a local heating pro whose work I highly respect what was considered normal good practice. His answer was that, indeed, treatments aren't used by most installers in this area for closed residential systems-- but he was quick to add that no harm could come from it, and that it would probably be a good thing for the life of the boiler

The 8-way that I mentioned above and that I used had the advantages of (a) seeming like a reasonably decent product; (b) being readily available; and (c) being reasonably priced. My Econoburn also came from the factory with a quart of Boiler Seal
(broken link removed to http://www.gunk.com/CAT_B232.asp)
which, from what I understand, was included with the boiler to form a protective coating on the metal

 

[dogwood]

Trevor, how many gallons can you treat with a quart of the Rectorseal? Didn't find the answer on the link.

Mike

 

[pybyr]

Trevor, how many gallons can you treat with a quart of the Rectorseal? Didn't find the answer on the link.

Mike

According to the datasheet:

"FOR HOT WATER SYSTEMS:
• Use 1 quart for each 25 gallons of circulating water. Stops corrosion and scale."

(broken link removed to http://www.rectorseal.com/files/172/ds8way.pdf)

 

[dogwood]

Thanks for the info Trevor.

Mike

 

[Gooserider]

FWIW, I've always been told that you shouldn't treat a closed system with anything, just have straight tap water.

When I was looking into this topic when doing my initial install, I asked a local heating pro whose work I highly respect what was considered normal good practice. His answer was that, indeed, treatments aren't used by most installers in this area for closed residential systems-- but he was quick to add that no harm could come from it, and that it would probably be a good thing for the life of the boiler

The 8-way that I mentioned above and that I used had the advantages of (a) seeming like a reasonably decent product; (b) being readily available; and (c) being reasonably priced. My Econoburn also came from the factory with a quart of Boiler Seal
(broken link removed to http://www.gunk.com/CAT_B232.asp)
which, from what I understand, was included with the boiler to form a protective coating on the metal

One or two questions on that boiler seal product - per the product info, they say to use one part of boiler seal to 50 parts water, sounds like you'd need an awful lot for a system w/ storage, as that works out to one quart for every 12.5 gallons of water...

More significantly, they say not to use it in systems with "water lubricated pumps" - As I understand the way they work, that definition covers just about any system that we've seen in this forum as the common Taco / Grundfos / etc. wet-rotor circs are by definition "water lubricated".... Doesn't this pose a bit of a concern?

I will say that the product does work reasonably well at stopping leaks - way to many years ago, I had a shared housing situation where we had one floor of a duplex with an ANCIENT "beehive" style boiler, probably asbestos insulated, etc. I think it was originally a coal unit that had been converted to oil. It was long past being on it's last legs, but essentially the deal was that we could stay in the place for well under "market" rents as long as the landlord didn't have to spend any money on upgrading the place - If you looked up inside the boiler, you could see that it was all cracks, which periodically would let go and drip on the burner, putting out the fire... This was our signal to pour another couple quarts of stop-leak in the system, which would keep us going for another month or two - I think we had more stop-leak in the system than we did water, but...

Gooserider

 

[jebatty]

There is a poor man's approach, not quite as scientific, but does provide some key protection elements: sodium sulfite for O2 scavenging and sodium hydroxide (lye, caustic soda) for raising pH. I think one of the ingredients in Rectorseal is sodium hydroxide. Litmus paper from a swimming pool test kit will get close enough for a pH test -- goal generally is in the 8.0-8.5 range, but I doubt a little higher will make any difference. The test kit also may test for total alkalinity, which relates to the ability to buffer pH changes. From what I've read, should be in the 250-700 (ppm?) range. If you do it yourself, be really cautious on chemical use, as some of these can be quite dangerous if handled improperly.

 

[in hot water]

maybe a good compromise would be to separate the boiler from large storage volumes and run a cleaner and conditioner just through that part, for a day. A few ball valves properly placed could accomplish that.

Getting the gunk out of the boiler and piping is the most important part. Also getting that coating on the inside of the boiler and expensive components.

hr

 

[Gooserider]

maybe a good compromise would be to separate the boiler from large storage volumes and run a cleaner and conditioner just through that part, for a day. A few ball valves properly placed could accomplish that.

Getting the gunk out of the boiler and piping is the most important part. Also getting that coating on the inside of the boiler and expensive components.

hr

Sounds like a reasonable approach, and probably wouldn't be as wasteful as flushing a thousand gallons or so of barely used water...

One thing I was hoping you'd comment on was the question I raised above about that Boiler Seal stuff - where the product info said not to use it on liquid cooled pumps - is that OK w/ the standard wet-rotor style pumps that just about everyone seems to use these days? I thought those counted as "liquid cooled"?

Gooserider

 

[dogwood]

Part of the function of the additive in my case would be to adjust all 1000+ gallons of the water's pH to 8, as the Solo Innova's manual calls for. I think my water pH is already at 7, but haven't checked it in years. Maybe I can adjust that separately. I would like to find a safe non-caustic, economical way to raise just the Ph. Then I can do as HR suggests and run some of that cleaner just through the boiler periodically.

Jim, I am a little worried about putting lye into the system. I know from stripping furniture it will burn you up and I'm more concerned could possibly cause plastic rotors, integral flow check valves, or other plumbing parts harm over time. Does anyone know if there is there another way to raise pH for large amounts of water. Maybe some kind of swimming pool product?

Mike

 

[in hot water]

I really doubt that a sealer product would be wise product to put in anew system. We have tried sealers specifically for hydronic tube leaks, with limited success. Sealers, if you need them, are really a bandaid, treating the symptom not the problem. Pipes, boilers fittings can be replaced or repaired.

I did go on a service call once where the owner dumped "solder seal" automotive radiator stuff into his boiler. What a mess.

Conditioners are for conditioners. Sealers are a different animal.

hr

maybe a good compromise would be to separate the boiler from large storage volumes and run a cleaner and conditioner just through that part, for a day. A few ball valves properly placed could accomplish that.

Getting the gunk out of the boiler and piping is the most important part. Also getting that coating on the inside of the boiler and expensive components.

hr

Sounds like a reasonable approach, and probably wouldn't be as wasteful as flushing a thousand gallons or so of barely used water...

One thing I was hoping you'd comment on was the question I raised above about that Boiler Seal stuff - where the product info said not to use it on liquid cooled pumps - is that OK w/ the standard wet-rotor style pumps that just about everyone seems to use these days? I thought those counted as "liquid cooled"?

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

There are pool products to raise pH, but not sure about their costs, and the amounts needed (though less than what would be used in a real pool) - and also a lot of pool chemicals are also rather nasty unless diluted to pool strength. Lye diluted to that level also wouldn't be a big health issue or offer any particular risk far as I know - however I suspect there would be purpose designed commercial products that would do as well and still be cost effective...

(I will also mention that pool products are mostly just intended to be good for lining the pockets of the pool store owners, and many are actually BAD for your pool water - I've gotten away from the pool store addiction with our pool and as a result our water last summer was better than it had ever been before...)

Gooserider

 

[joecool85]

Part of the function of the additive in my case would be to adjust all 1000+ gallons of the water's Ph to 8 as the Solo Innova's manual calls for. I think my water Ph is already at 7 but haven't checked it in years. Maybe I can adjust that separately. I would like to find a safe non-caustic, economical way to raise just the Ph. Then I can do as HR suggests and run some of that cleaner just through the boiler periodically.

Jim, I am a little worried about putting lye into the system. I know from stripping furniture it will burn you up and I'm more concerned could possibly cause plastic rotors, integral flow check valves, or other plumbing parts harm over time. Does anyone know if there is there another way to raise Ph for large amounts of water. Maybe some kind of swimming pool product?

Mike

Nothing to worry about. When you consider the small amount going in compared to the 1000+ gallons in your system, it won't harm anything.

 

[webie]

Not sure if you could use this in a boiler and some chemists on here may know ,but I have someone here that has a lot of skin allergies . So i went to a natural citrus product for use in my hot tub , The system uses basically all natural chemicals . The 2 ingredients that we use is if we are high in alkaline then we use vinegar to knock it down . Now Not sure if you can use this in a boiler but we use baking soda to raise the pH in the hot tub .
Webie

 

[dogwood]

Any idea how much sodium hydroxide it would take to raise 1000 gallons of water one pH point. Is sodium hydroxide, caustic soda, something you can get at Lowes or Home Depot? What about Webie's baking soda idea? Think that would be appropriate for use in the system? And if so, how much do you think it would take of that to raise 1000 gallons a pH point. Maybe you can extrapolate from your hot tub's size Webie. I'd call some pool people too, but, but they're probably not working with this much snow on the ground. On the other hand these pool hustlers may really welcome a call if they are there.

Mike

 

[jebatty]

Regarding sodium hydroxide (lye, caustic soda), I added a "small" amout at a time, let the water circulate for awhile, then measured pH, and repeated until pH was above 8.0. This was done over several days. My water started at pH 6.5, acid but still drinking water quality.

I had a container of about 1 qt of water, added slowly and stirred about 2 oz of 100% sodium hydroxide lye, it gets quite hot, and then poured it slowly into my 1000 gal storage tank. Wear eye protection and gloves, be careful, never spilled a drop or had a splatter. I can't even recall how much I used, but the water has been crystal clear ever since.

I thought about the pH raising pool compounds, but when you get down to it, water people swim in is a little different than boiler water, but pH is pH, lye is cheap, and lye was common around our house years ago to clean drains. I knew it was dangerous, but I never was uncomfortable using it.

I'm not suggesting there aren't better, safer, or more protective compounds. I'm only suggesting that if pH is the issue, sodium hydroxide addresses pH about as well as anything can.

 

[webie]

I had to add baking soda to the hot tub today . 16 oz's (small box ) changed my 500 gal hot tub .3 ( at least thats what my chemical readout on the tub says )
Just wondering can you get to high on alkalinity and what will that do ?

 

[dogwood]

I'm sold Jim. Sounds like I only need a box of lye to get the job done if you're speaking of adding ounces at a time. Thanks for the tip. I'll be sure to be careful and wear gloves and eye protection too. Can you still get lye at hardware stores? This post gets saved.

Mike

 

[jebatty]

I had no problem getting lye at the hardware store in the drain cleaning area. I live in a rural area.