VC Defiant horizontal mode

[hyperion]

We have a VC Defiant I from 1979. This is our first season with it (it came with the new house), and so far could never get the horizontal mode to work. I wait until 550F stove top, pull down the damper, then the temperature starts to drop, but it never stabilizes. It would keep dropping until past 400 and I'd have to open the damper again, a real pain.

We pretty much thought that the secondary was broken and since we were going to replace the stove anyways, decided to live with it. But then all of a sudden, it worked yesterday. Pull down the damper at 550F, it stabilized at 500F for 2 hours, then started to come down (this was a small coldstart load). I filled it up then and again it stabilized at 475F and went for the rest of the evening.

But of course, I couldn't get it to do it again today. I build the fire the same way, but everything was back the way it was, no stabilizing, temperature kept dropping after dampering. Now that I know it is possible, i.e. the stove is not broken, it is starting to really bug me. What could be magic reason?

Oh and we are burning envi-blocks exclusively, so wet wood is not an issue. And when it worked yesterday, it was the same fuel.

 

[BrowningBAR]

We have a VC Defiant I from 1979. This is our first season with it (it came with the new house), and so far could never get the horizontal mode to work. I wait until 550F stove top, pull down the damper, then the temperature starts to drop, but it never stabilizes. It would keep dropping until past 400 and I'd have to open the damper again, a real pain.

We pretty much thought that the secondary was broken and since we were going to replace the stove anyways, decided to live with it. But then all of a sudden, it worked yesterday. Pull down the damper at 550F, it stabilized at 500F for 2 hours, then started to come down (this was a small coldstart load). I filled it up then and again it stabilized at 475F and went for the rest of the evening.

But of course, I couldn't get it to do it again today. I build the fire the same way, but everything was back the way it was, no stabilizing, temperature kept dropping after dampering. Now that I know it is possible, i.e. the stove is not broken, it is starting to really bug me. What could be magic reason?

Oh and we are burning envi-blocks exclusively, so wet wood is not an issue. And when it worked yesterday, it was the same fuel.

What about your air control? Are you shutting that down at the same time?

 

[hyperion]

No, I hear the correct practice is not to touch the thermostat control immediately after dampering. A good friend who burns a Defiant said to give it 10-15 minutes before closing down the air. When it is not working for me, I never get the chance to close down the air, the temperature would start dropping pretty much immediately. When it worked yesterday, I did get a chance to close down the air 15 minutes later.

What about your air control? Are you shutting that down at the same time?

 

[BrowningBAR]

No, I hear the correct practice is not to touch the thermostat control immediately after dampering. A good friend who burns a Defiant said to give it 10-15 minutes before closing down the air. When it is not working for me, I never get the chance to close down the air, the temperature would start dropping pretty much immediately. When it worked yesterday, I did get a chance to close down the air 15 minutes later.

What about your air control? Are you shutting that down at the same time?

You are correct. I wanted to know what you were doing. When you do shut the air down, be sure to do it in stages.

How is your draft? Are your gaskets in good shape? Is the stove in good shape?

 

[hyperion]

How is your draft? Are your gaskets in good shape? Is the stove in good shape?

Draft is good, smoke never comes out with open doors. The gaskets look to be in good shape. The stove "appears" to be in excellent shape. The previous owner of the house claimed that he used the Defiant for max 1 season since the installation. His original words were "I got married, and that was the end of wood burning". Since he is now my neighbor and I know his wife, that's pretty much a true statement. He had to convert his wood-burning fireplace in his new house to a gas one as well. We however did not take the time to take the stove apart before the burning season and thus don't know if anything inside has warped, etc. It's been 30 years after all, even with minimal usage.

 

[BrowningBAR]

How is your draft? Are your gaskets in good shape? Is the stove in good shape?

Draft is good, smoke never comes out with open doors. The gaskets look to be in good shape. The stove "appears" to be in excellent shape. The previous owner of the house claimed that he used the Defiant for max 1 season since the installation. His original words were "I got married, and that was the end of wood burning". Since he is now my neighbor and I know his wife, that's pretty much a true statement. He had to convert his wood-burning fireplace in his new house to a gas one as well. We however did not take the time to take the stove apart before the burning season and thus don't know if anything inside has warped, etc. It's been 30 years after all, even with minimal usage.

Since you are indicating that draft and stove are in good shape and I've never used envi-blocks, then the best thing to do is to cross the fuel source off the list as the problem area by going to Giant (you are in my area, so I know you have one) and pick up two or three of their $4.99 bundled wood. The stuff is very dry and should get your stove up to temp. If it does not than you are going to have to inspect the stove and pipe/chimney to see what the issue is. If the bundled wood does bring the stove up to temp and holds temp when it is switched to horizontal burn then you need to play around with the envi-blocks to see what you can do to get them to burn better.

 

[hyperion]

Since you are indicating that draft and stove are in good shape and I've never used envi-blocks, then the best thing to do is to cross the fuel source off the list as the problem area by going to Giant (you are in my area, so I know you have one) and pick up two or three of their $4.99 bundled wood. The stuff is very dry and should get your stove up to temp. If it does not than you are going to have to inspect the stove and pipe/chimney to see what the issue is. If the bundled wood does bring the stove up to temp and holds temp when it is switched to horizontal burn then you need to play around with the envi-blocks to see what you can do to get them to burn better.

Indeed, Giant is everywhere. By the way Doylestown is only 30-40 minutes away and we were just there a few months ago buying mattresses. Will try the supermarket wood and see what happens. Thanks!

 

[begreen]

Is the secondary port flap (keyway) on the side of the stove all the way open? If not, it should be.

 

[fbelec]

just rebuilt my defiant at the beginning of the season. the horizontal burn works well, but as the manual says, you need to have a good bed of coals going to be able to use it. when i get the stove going i start a small to med size fire. after that is burnt down to coals i throw on a couple of splits get them going to 500 to 600 hundred on the cook plate, then load it to the gills after loading wait 10 or 15 minutes with the secondary air door open then flip it down and that's it. btw with all that cold wood in the fire box and the damper closed it will cool off the top of the stove for a while because your fire is on the bottom and heading sideways to exit. so it will drop a little and then climb back up later. also make your fire up against the baffle on the right side of the stove so that any smoke has to go thru the hot coals and fire. they don't tell you that in the manual but that is real world exp. if you want to know if your secondary is firing the only way to tell is at night shut the lights off and look thru the secondary air hole on the left side bottom edge between the corner and the left side door. if your secondary is working you'll see the light from the flame thru that hole. if you try to light off the secondary from a cold start fire with out a bed of coals the secondary will light and the a minute later go out. also what i noticed is that what ever you run the primary air at you will have to open it up a touch more with the secondary running, because the flue gasses run by the primary spring coil before exiting the stove so that corner will run hotter on horizontal mode verses up draft. but at horizontal burn mode the spring coil is more sensitive to the fire. so long story short get a small fire going. get the stove up to at least 500 then when it's all coals stuff some more in there let it go until it start to get the stove hot and then flip the damper down and you should be good to go. if the secondary does not light or you forgot to open the secondary air hole yes the stove will cool down and it will make enough creosote for 3 stoves.

 

[peakbagger]

I find that most problems with defiants are related to two items, lack of draft and lack of cleaning. The defiants require a very good draft and most setups are compromisies. I have a tall (3 stories) interior chimney that vents at the ridge of the roof, if the stove was used in the last day or so, I can light a fire and five minutes later engage the secondary burn and walk away. The prior installation where I bought it was on a exterior chimney and it took a lot more work to get the secondary to work, bascially they had to build a roaring fire and let it go for a half hour, then they could engage it. If for some reason the stove was necked down from 8 to 6" pipe, good luck, the secondary burn rarely works.

Given the low hours on the stove, I dont thinks its dirty in the internal passages, but buildup behind the fireback can act to restrict the flow on marginal installations and make the secondary only something that works in real cold weather (when the draft is muhc better)

 

[doug60]

I burned a defiant for years.
Out side masonry chimney stainless lined & insulated with rock wool.
Never had a problem with the horizontal burn mode.
Like said before , the small secondary air inlet should remain open.
You should never have to mess with your primary air thermostat ,
once dialed in at 400 lets say the coil spring does the rest.
When cold it should be in the open position .

Mine worked flawlessly , build a fire wait till stove top got up to 400 , close the seconday damper. The stove would hold 400/450 until the fuel was gone.

 

[doug60]

No, I hear the correct practice is not to touch the thermostat control immediately after dampering. A good friend who burns a Defiant said to give it 10-15 minutes before closing down the air. When it is not working for me, I never get the chance to close down the air, the temperature would start dropping pretty much immediately. When it worked yesterday, I did get a chance to close down the air 15 minutes later.

What about your air control? Are you shutting that down at the same time?

In other words, you use the thermostat control to keep the stove from over fireing.
That flapper when closed will snuff the fire out , its the fire box only air supply.
The little small air supply only feeds the bafflel area on the extreme right side of the stove.

And yes all air passages need to remain clear.
I would take the stove outside every two seasons & blow out the air passages with a leaf blower.

 

[fbelec]

if you read the manual you are not suppose to open the secondary air hole unless you are burning horizontal. if left open on updraft mode it will feed air feed air to the fire and start a overfire condition. the air will move the opposite direction that it normally does and feed the fire. not sure if the eviro blocks will give you a secondary burn because of how clean they burn. the manual says use cord wood only.

 

[fbelec]

We have a VC Defiant I from 1979. This is our first season with it (it came with the new house), and so far could never get the horizontal mode to work. I wait until 550F stove top, pull down the damper, then the temperature starts to drop, but it never stabilizes. It would keep dropping until past 400 and I'd have to open the damper again, a real pain.

We pretty much thought that the secondary was broken and since we were going to replace the stove anyways, decided to live with it. But then all of a sudden, it worked yesterday. Pull down the damper at 550F, it stabilized at 500F for 2 hours, then started to come down (this was a small coldstart load). I filled it up then and again it stabilized at 475F and went for the rest of the evening.

But of course, I couldn't get it to do it again today. I build the fire the same way, but everything was back the way it was, no stabilizing, temperature kept dropping after dampering. Now that I know it is possible, i.e. the stove is not broken, it is starting to really bug me. What could be magic reason?

Oh and we are burning envi-blocks exclusively, so wet wood is not an issue. And when it worked yesterday, it was the same fuel.

hyperion case and point. i had a fire going last night and before i went to bed i jammed as much wood as i could fit in it on top of about 4 inches of coals gave it a few minutes closed the damper the secondary lit and the cooking plate cooled down from 600 slowly down to 475 for a while then built back up after about a hour. i stuffed it at 11:30 by 12:00 it was running fine. you'll also notice that when your top starts cooling a little the right side and back get much hotter. if you got a good secondary running the right side of the stove is burning hot and i have even had a glow start a couple times. when i check the stove at 8:00 this morning it was still running 400 degrees and cooling.

 

[hyperion]

For those that asked, yes, the secondary air hole was open. In fact, due to laziness, I never close it. The flap that covers it sticks some on my Defiant and it's not easy to operate with gloves. I figure I can control the risk of overfire in updraft mode with the primary.

fbelec, thanks for sharing your experience. I never thought of building the fire on the right side, but it makes a lot of sense. I will try that. I will also try looking for secondary through the air hole. That will make it less of a guessing game.

 

[hyperion]

I find that most problems with defiants are related to two items, lack of draft and lack of cleaning. The defiants require a very good draft and most setups are compromisies. I have a tall (3 stories) interior chimney that vents at the ridge of the roof, if the stove was used in the last day or so, I can light a fire and five minutes later engage the secondary burn and walk away. The prior installation where I bought it was on a exterior chimney and it took a lot more work to get the secondary to work, bascially they had to build a roaring fire and let it go for a half hour, then they could engage it. If for some reason the stove was necked down from 8 to 6" pipe, good luck, the secondary burn rarely works.

Given the low hours on the stove, I dont thinks its dirty in the internal passages, but buildup behind the fireback can act to restrict the flow on marginal installations and make the secondary only something that works in real cold weather (when the draft is muhc better)

What you are saying actually makes a lot of sense. We have 8" pipes that go straight up, but the height is marginal, with 8' interior and 3' above the roof. I never have smoke problems, but there isn't any way to tell if I have the excellent draft the Defiant requires. And the day when it worked, it was a very cold night, in the teens, and windy.

If draft is the magic reason, then there is no quick or cheap fix to it.. oh well.