New house, stove advice needed

[Skier76]

We just purchased a roughly 1,000 sq/ft "A Frame" home in Southern VT. It has a loft bedroom, a main floor living area, kitchen, eating area and bathroom, and a lower level with a poured/block foundation. This is going to be our ski/weekend house. The house currently has a Rinnai wall heater(located on the main level) keeping the place warm. I plan to add another to the lower level; these will keep the home warm when we aren't there.

I'd like to get a wood buring stove. There's currently a hookup in the lower level. Outside, there's an insulated metal chimney. From what I understand, the previous tenants took the stove with them.

Any suggestions as what to look for? There's a stove place in Brattleboro, VT (about 15-20 minutes from the house) that sells wood stoves. I just want to make sure I get something correctly sized for the house. We'd use the woodstove for heating when we're there on the weekends, and as mentioned, the wall heaters would pick up the slack during the week.

 

[begreen]

I have a friend that put in a mid-sized PE stove in a bit larger A frame this last season. He is loving the stove. Previously he was using a VC Intrepid, which didn't quite handle the really cold days. Now he has an Alderlea T5 and it has worked out very well for him. So I would recommend at least a 2 cu ft stove. What brands does the local dealer sell?

Be sure to add a ceiling fan a the peak of the A frame if these isn't one there already. Run it in reverse in the winter (blowing upward). It will make a big difference in breaking up heat stratification at the peak of the A frame.

 

[Skier76]

Thanks BeGreen! I wasn't sure what size, so that's some good info. I can post room dimensions of needed.

We already have a fan, so that's a good thing! When that wall unit gets cranking the loft gets toasty in a hurry! I plan on ditching the 2" of insulation currently installed under the roof and going with 4" of foam board.

The store carries the following brands according to their website:

Avalon
Douvre
Fireplace Xtrordinair
Hearthstone
Heat & Glo
Jøtul
Majestic
Quadra-Fire
Vermont Castings

 

[b121]

I'd like to get a wood buring stove. There's currently a hookup in the lower level. Outside, there's an insulated metal chimney. From what I understand, the previous tenants took the stove with them.

Is it possible to find out what kind of woodstove the previous tenant had, and what experiences they had with that stove ?

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Thanks BeGreen! I wasn't sure what size, so that's some good info. I can post room dimensions of needed.

We already have a fan, so that's a good thing! When that wall unit gets cranking the loft gets toasty in a hurry! I plan on ditching the 2" of insulation currently installed under the roof and going with 4" of foam board.

The store carries the following brands according to their website:

Avalon
Douvre
Fireplace Xtrordinair
Hearthstone
Heat & Glo
Jøtul
Majestic
Quadra-Fire
Vermont Castings

Avalon: No idea
Douvre: Part of quadrafire, brand has been retired for several years now
Fireplace Xtrordinair : fantastic reputation, but not familer with there stoves.
Hearthstone: Heratige or Homestead, howevre, these are not the best stoves for fast heat for a weekend cabin. They are more long term, 24/7 heaters.
Heat & Glo Doesnt make a woodstove i dont belive
Jøtul : the 3cb or castine would be a good choice.
Majestic: part of vermont castings.
Quadra-Fire 2100 or 3100 would be great for this application, steel stoves heat up fast and can warm a cold room quickly.
Vermont Castings: company is not in the best shape at the moment

 

[begreen]

For quick heat, I'd go with a steel stove. Avalon is made by Travis. They also make Lopi. I like their mid-sized stoves. Our neighbor has an Avalon Ranier. It's a solid heater that warms up quickly. Quadrafire's are also great stoves and really efficient burners.

 

[SlyFerret]

The englander 13-NC is certainly worth a look too. You might be able to get a heck of a deal on one at Home Depot at this time of year!

-SF

 

[Later]

We just put in a Jotul Castine -good looking stove that provides enough heat to get our indoor temp up to the 70's when it's 0 outside with the furnace set at 62. Just enough for a 1200 sq ft first floor. The bedrooms get too hot though.

 

[blel]

The englander 13-NC is certainly worth a look too. You might be able to get a heck of a deal on one at Home Depot at this time of year!

-SF

I put in a Eng 13 last fall. It's been great. A lot of bang for the buck, especially in a weekend/ski house.

 

[Skier76]

Unfortunately, there's no way to find out what they previous owners/tenants had in the house. It's kind of an interesting story. The people who owned the house lived in Alaska. They actually haven't been to the house in 15 years. From what I understand, the house had been rented for some time. The last tenants took the stove with them...or it was there's to begin with. The house had been unoccupied for about 1.5 years before we closed on it 3 weeks ago. It's been well taken care of too.

Any idea what it costs to hook a stove up to an existing chimney? I understand that some tweaking of the inside piping may have to be done. I'm a rather handy guy, but I don't want the smoke, car/mox detectors going bonkers when I light it up for the first time.

Thanks for the feedback on the brands I listed. My folks had a Jotul back in the day. I want to say it had a big number "3" on the side of it. Put out a lot of heat! But it was heating a house that was easily twice the size of the A Frame.

I almost forgot! The A Frame already has a ceiling fan installed. I'm sure that will get a workout once we get a stove. Amazing how much heat collects up near the top of the ceiling.

 

[begreen]

Sounds like you should be fine with a 1.5 to 2 cu ft stove. It's hard to say what the connecting pipe will cost, it will depend if it is single or double wall connector and how long the run is from the stove until it connects to the class A stainless pipe. Before connecting, I'd advise having a professional sweep clean and inspect the flue. Ask him to identify the brand of class A chimney. That way you'll know what brand connector pipe you will need to complete the setup.

 

[Skier76]

I'll get some pics for you guys this weekend. I actually may clean the chimney myself this weekend. They left behind a brush and a fiberglass pole. After some investigating, I found the cleanout at the bottom of the chimney. You should have seen the chunks of creosote at the top of the chimney cap. I'm starting to think they burned wet pine.

There's already piping inside the house....in the hearth area. I'll attach a pic I took from the outsie of the house back in February. Sorry, it's a bit blury. The other pic is of the chimney. It's got a few dents in it, but looks to be in good shape. Again, I'll get some better ones this weekend.

 

[begreen]

The flue looks marginal both in height and distance from the roof. How tall is it above the tee? How far is it from the roof, 2 ft below the cap?

For good draft, most stove companies want ~15' flue on their stoves. As a cold exterior chimney it is going to condense creosote gases quickly. FWIW, this would be a far better installation if the flue was run up inside the cabin.

As it is, the connector pipe will be minimal. Given the short, cold flue, I'd use a 45 elbow + connector + 45 elbow connected to the thimble to minimize resistance and assist draft. For the least fussy startups and reloads, you'll want a stove that drafts easily and for a corner installation, one with close corner clearances. You might check to see if there is a Napoleon stove dealer in your area. A model 1400 will meet these needs. It drafts easily and if double-wall connector is used, it requires only 4" corner clearances.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Napolean stoves are fairly easy to get even if there isnt a dealer close by.. it looks like one of the site sponsers sells them online.
http://www.zoobler.com/

 

[Skier76]

Here's a better pic of the roof and pipe. I had moved the Jeep in order to use my miter saw in the driveway and snapped a pic.

Is the "T" the area where the pipe goes from horizontal from vertical? I can easily measure that this weekend. I will also take better pics of the inside connector, and the "homebrew" setup they have for a concrete pad and stone hearth.

Our home inspector commented on the height of the pipe. He said that some installers may try to sell us on raising the height of it because it's not above the roofline. He felt that wasn't necessary and thought that the way it was set up, the roof would actually help buffer any potential downdrafts. He mentioned that insulated pipe can get a bit spendy.

If you look very closely at the pic I posted, you can see the old pipe on the ridge of the roof. Best we can tell, they used to have it set up to vent that way. As it is now, I don't think that's an option. There's just not enough space on the main floor to run piping...or a chimney structure.

Thanks for the tips on the . Looks like there is a dealer in Keene, NH. I think that's about a half an hour or so from where we are.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Wow, that pipe actually looks WAY to short, and i am not sure how the inpector thinks that the house will help with down drafts. The wind will come off that peak, create a negative presure pocket over the cap, and down the smoke will go.

here is a bit on the 10/2/3 rule

This rule is frequently misunderstood or ignored, and many people have drafting problems with their fireplaces for this reason. This rule is fairly simple, however, and must be followed in every vented fireplace installation.

National Fuel Gas Code, ANSI Z223.1, Section 10.5.2.1, states the rule: "A chimney for residential-type or low-heat gas utilization equipment shall extend at least 3 ft. (0.9 m) above the highest point where it passes through a roof of a building and at least 2 ft. (0.6 m) higher than any portion of a building within a horizontal distance of 10 ft. (3 m)."

The basic rule is this: the bottom of the vent termination must clear the roof penetration point (the upper edge) by at least 3 feet; further, the bottom of any fireplace vent termination must clear anything within a 10 foot radius by at least 2 feet. This includes: the peak of the house, parapet, dormer, chimney or spire.

The following diagrams illustrate this rule.

cut and pasted from : http://www.fireplacesnow.com/tentwo.html

On a different note, im not sure that the chimney will work at the proper hight, considering how much chimney you will have exposed. I also dont think it will work in the current configuration, is it possible that the reason the stove is no longer there is becasue the stove didnt work? Have you tried do a smoke test on it with a smoke stick?

 

[Skier76]

That's some good info there, thanks for passing it along! I'm wondering if I should bring some pics to the stove store so I can give them an idea of what's currently in place.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Absoluty bring your photos. Also, bring the flue location measurements, and what kind of hearth protection is already in place.(materials and dimensions)

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

A few more notes about this., it is still very possible that extending the chinney will not work becasue if the condensation that will form from the long exposed run of pipe. Also, if you did extend it, how will you clean it? Its almost guarenteed that with a new stove and that much pipe exposed you are going to foul the cap durning the break in process, you need a good plan on how to attack a chimney that is that hard to get to. You cant really lay a ladder up against the chimney, and you sure as hell cant stand on the roof with the 10/2 rule with the pitch that you have. Im guessing that you will need to figure out a way to keep that pipe inside the house , and penetrate the roof near the peak so you or a pro can get up there and clean it. It will obviously make the stove work properly, but it will also allow the stove to be serviced.

 

[Skier76]

Luckily, there's a cleanout at the base of the pipe. If you look closely at the first pic (the one that highlights the natural "mossy green" tint of the shingles, HA!) you can see the pipe is sitting on what looks like a metal shelf. Under that shelf, there's a cleanout. I'm assuming that the chimney is cleaned by removing that cleanout and sending the brush up the pipe.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

but how do you get to the cap?

 

[Skier76]

That's a darn good question! Something tells me using a pressure washer isn't an option for that. ; )

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

LOL. no pressure washers wont do it.

So what happens with new stoves is that they need to be broke in, which means you burn them at low temps for the first few fires to help cure the paint and cement that they are built with. The curing process produces low flue temps. Exterior chimneys also produce low flue tems. The longer the run of exterior pipe the more it cools. Once you get to the cold cold cap that is hanging out in the air, the flue gas condensates on the cap screen forming creosote. This can happen in one burn. Once the cap is cloged with creosote, the stove will not work untill yuou get up there and clean it. So at first, when you are breaking in the stove, this is most likely going to happen. Once the break in process is over, it can still happen if you get a cold fire, or wet wood, or if you shut the stove down to soon, the length of exposed chimney multiplies the effect. So you need a good plan on how to get up there and clean the cap, otherwise the stove will be useless. Thats why im guessing that the old tenants didnt take the stove, my guess it was removed to free up space in the house becasue it wasnt working. That of course is just a guess.

 

[begreen]

I'd consider disassembling the current setup and recycling parts of it to an interior flue setup. It's little wonder that you found a large creosote accumulation. This is a problem installation from the get go.

If this is a known brand stainless pipe, you may still be able to get the parts to make is work on the interior. Once on the interior you can switch to double-wall connector which is less costly than exterior class A and has a modest 6" clearance requirement. Yes, this will take planning, but in the final result you will have a safer, cleaner and much better operating system.

 

[Skier76]

I bet the pressure washer would be kinda fun....LOL!

Thanks guys. It certainly explains why there were huge chunks up by the cap. I had assumed they burned a lot of wet pine!

I'm going to bring a bunch of pics and measurements to the store this weekend and see what they say. I'll also take some pictures and post them here as well.

Great thread! I've learned a lot in the past day or so.