Subject: Hearth Digest 9/3/96 - - - Back to List archives - Back to Club House
1. Travis shares list of do's and don'ts
2. HPA board meeting
1. Gas Safety Input Needed
2. Re: Care with outside displays
1. New Chimney Site
2. Clean Air in Southern Cal
3. Gas Safety continued
Subject: Hearth Digest 9/10/96 In this digest:
1. More on Education
2. Educate me on gas---gas guru's wanted
1. Answers on questions about gas installations. (some GREAT answers here folks - assuming I'm not the only clueless one on the list, you might want to print these out...thanks to the respondents, and also to Aladdin Steel who faxed some info to us)
2. Job Offer - Kentucy
3. Lenox - Regency - ??
Subject: Hearth Digest 9/14/96 Cc:
1. Firewright Program now available
2. Regency and Lennox, and being your own best competition
3. HPA Press Releases (from Board Meeting)
4. More funny installtion stories
1. HEARTH PRESS RELEASE
2. Gas Safety Input- Are they listening ?
3. Job Opening in Beautiful Virginia
Subject: Hearth Digest 9/20/96
1. Gas Safety Note
2. New Woodheat Site on the Web !
In this Digest:
1 Help with Glossary From [email protected] (Craig Issod)
1. More Customer Stories
2. Handling those "pain in the ass" customers
3. Looking for the crane arms for fireplaces
4. Installer wanted for job
1. Interesting Customers
2. Long Key for gas valves
3. Great IDEA book...
1. Travis shares list of do's and don'ts
2. HPA board meeting
1. Travis shares list of do's and don'ts it's fair season again, and folks are displaying and setting up gas stoves and fireplaces for the public to view. Modern gas appliances need proper and safe venting, and the old black piping or other jury-rig just does not do it. Travis Industries has been good enough to share this list of do's and don'ts with their dealers. Even though they are speaking about their products, this advice pertains to ALL burning displays. You can't be too safe when it comes to gas and fire ! Common Errors of Burn Displays * Incorrect Vent Height Without the proper vent height, the unit will not draft properly. This may lead to "reverse-venting" where the exhaust gases don't escape properly, or "pilot-deflection" where the pilot is blown off the thermocouple or thermopile, disabling the appliance and requiring multiple re-starts. In extreme cases it may cause gas to pool in the exhaust and air intake manifolds, posing an extreme explosion hazard. * Improper Cap Travis Industries direct-vent products require the proper cap (either the Horizontal Termination, part # 984, or the High-Wind Vertical Termination, part # 991) - no exceptions. These caps were specifically designed to nullify the effects of wind. Without these caps, the appliance's combustion process may be directly influenced by wind. * Treating the Installation as a Casual, Temporary Installation A fair or home-show display is up for only a few days, making a complete safety check seem like an overkill - it isn't. We've all experienced the excitement of setting up a display. Cutting corners is sometimes needed to ensure a timely display. Cut corners elsewhere, but not with gas. Check all gas lines and connections. Make sure they are secure and can not be accidentally severed or broken. * Not using PTFE or Teflon Tape on all Pipe Joints Pipe joints utilize a tapered thread to seal gas. These connections require a sealant to completely seal off any leaks. Use PTFE or teflon tape on the threads to seal. Compression joints and flared joints do not require PTFE or teflon tape (NOTE: these joints are on tubes, not on pipe). Make sure all installers know the difference and carry PTFE or teflon tape with their installation equipment. * Depending on Your Nose instead of a Leak Detector. Leak detectors are spendy but worth the price considering the alternative. * Not Testing Gas Hookups After Purging Air from the Line After installing the gas line and connections, visually check the connections, making sure they are properly aligned and tight. Then turn the tank valve on with the appliance shut off valve off. Then purge the line. After purging, use a leak detector to check each connection. * Not Realizing Outside Conditions Warrant Additional Care Wind will blow leaking gas away from the line, making leak detection more difficult. Non-permanent structures (i.e. fair booths) make gas line routing more difficult and the line more vulnerable. Make sure to shut the propane tank valve off each night. Leak test the line each morning. The most dangerous situations are those involving gas that has been leaking for a long time. And when switching propane tanks, turn the green knob on the gas control valve to off.
2. HPA Meeting (Craig Issod, [email protected]) Does anyone know what the story is with the HPA and the proposal to change the dues structure ? One item that is supposed to be on the agenda is a reduced entry price to the HPA show for members of the spa, bbq, HVAC and other industries. This money has to be made up somewhere...and I suppose full dues paying members will make up the slack. I fail to see the benefit of such a move. I can't imagine someone missing work, traveling to Reno, Nevada, staying in a hotel, taking cabs or renting cars, eating out, and then caring about whether admission was $10. or $80. The purpose of such a proposal would be to try to get more folks into the industry..a good thing for manufacturers, but maybe not the greatest for retailer HPA members. Maybe we do need more members....but not CHEAP ones. A tough question..... Being as HPA and many board members are on the list, perhaps we (industry members on the list) can have an explanation of this proposal (if it exists) prior to your meeting. End of Digest - Send posts to [email protected]
1. Gas Safety Input Needed
2. Re: Care with outside displays
From: "Robert A. Borgeson" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:54:01 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Gas Appliance Safety Reply-To: [email protected] This is a response to Craigs article in the club area regarding gas appliance safety. But first, a disclaimer.... Some of you may remember me as an employee of what used to be A.G.A. Labs. This is no longer true. The Research Dep't was sold to Energy International, a private company. Thus, I cannot in any way speak for AGA or IAS. 'Nuf said... The central question in Craig's article is basically, "What can we do about it?" (And, perhaps there's a little frustration showing ;-) ) There are things that you can do. The most obvious is to get involved in the ANSI standards process. The ANSI process is designed to be a public debate in which anyone can participate. The Standards Dep't of IAS is working hard to make that easier. They are quickly developing a WWW presence as part of the WWWsite which IAS and AGA Research share. You can download R&C texts (proposed changes) and communicate directly with the subcommittee secretaries. It's all designed to get feedback from folks like you! See http://www.gasweb.org/gasweb. Second, AGA's Gas Appliance Improvement Network is being renovated and reinvigorated. This is a system that facilitates the transfer of field data from gas utilities to manufacturers. The exact deatils of this are currently up in the air. But, HPA has agreed to be on the Advisory Board. So, this will be a second avenue for your feedback. When more on this is known, I'll pass it along. Bob Borgeson Program Manager - Residential Appliances AGA Research, A Division of Energy International ______________________________________________________________________
2.From: [email protected] (John David Crouch) Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 9/3/96 To: Craig Issod <[email protected]> To List: Re: Care with outside displays: AMEN and AMEN! As the Government Relations person I am constantly reminded of the long term impact of some of our industrire's mistakes. Our reputation is only as strong as our weakest member, or, your stores reputation for saftey and reliablity is only as strong as your newest installer. Please make sure everyone takes the greatest care with outside displays. On the list from Travis Industries is a reminder about Direct Vent and their special termination caps. Many of us (& I include myself) old stovies must keep reminding ourselves that that termination is designed into the system, indeed, the entire flue system is designed as part of the unit and we cannot, darenot, mix and match DV's and pipe and terminations. Unless the unit has all the pieces listed for it, it cannot be used. Period. John Crouch, HPA [email protected]
First, a shameless plug...contrary to popular belief, I do more than just write for this list. HearthNet, the informational "Mall" for Hearth retailers and manufacturers, is growing by leaps and bounds with more folks visiting each day. We are expecting over 10,000 visitors in September alone ! In order to complete the site, however, we need more retailers in our listings area. Many areas of the country are underrepresented, and this does not help the surfing public. The costs are very low, and most retailers I have spoke with have reported SALES directly from their web site or listing. Whether you are a manufacturer, rep, retailer, etc., I'd really appreciate if you could spread the work to others who may be interested. A rate sheet can be found at: http://hearth.com/eight.html or email me ([email protected]) Thanks.. Craig Issod In this digest:
1. New Chimney Site
2. Clean Air in Southern Cal
3. Gas Safety continued
1. New Chimney Site Dave McKnew [email protected] I have put together a new web site under my new domain name CHIMNEYSWEEPS.COM This site has been set up for chimney sweeps world wide. I now have 235 chimney sweeps in 8 different countries subscribed on my CHIMNEYS LIST which is a automated discussion list that has been in operation for almost 2 years. We also have a chatroom which is password protected and can be utilized 24 hours a day. On the main page their is a search function for looking up a sweep in your area that has 6140 sweeps in the directory. I am working on a directory of guilds and associations world wide which will be coming out soon. Thank you, and keep up the great work with your site it is looking good. Dave McKnew [email protected]
2. Clean Air in Southern Cal To: [email protected] Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:06:37 PST Subject: AQMD home page X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4,8-11 From: [email protected] (Jonathan A Harman) Everyone maybe interested in checking out the South Coast Air Quaility Management District's home page. www.aqmd.gov This is a nicely done site. Click on the icon marked "clean air plan". This is for 1997. I haven't read through it completely, but they appear to be talking about meeting with PM10 standards. Thought that was old news, especially with the new stuff coming out Nov. 24, 1996. Jonathan Harman [email protected]
3. Gas Safety continued ([email protected]) On Sept 4, Robert A. Borgeson" <[email protected] said: snip...snip >The central question in Craig's article is basically, "What can we do >about it?" (And, perhaps there's a little frustration showing ;-) ) > >There are things that you can do. The most obvious is to get >involved in the ANSI standards process. The ANSI process is designed >to be a public debate in which anyone can participate snip...snip Craig Issod responds: Thanks for the tip, Robert. Those of us in the industry appreciate anything that can be done to improve safety. However, most hearth industry retailers I know are too busy beating their heads against the wall trying to make a living to become too involved in the standards process. They, like me, expect that any product sold to us should meet not only existing standards, but should be as safe as humanly possible. We assume that the experts are doing all that they can. This means a goal of "zero" mishaps, even though it may be impossible. Unsafe appliances and installations, even if they meet "existing standards", can cause a backlash of cutomer opinion that will be felt after the glow of quick profits wears off. Ask the folks on the list from the Pellet Stove industry about this one. Some early pellet stove had reliability problems...and certain manufacturers covered them up. When we started getting almost daily callbacks, I remember thinking "If airplanes were like these early pellet stoves, they'd be falling out of the sky every few minutes !". An airplane is a lot more complicated than a gas or pellet stove, so surely a high degree of reliability and safety is possible. Newer generations of Pellet Stoves are more reliable and safer, but the stigma does remain among some dealers, distributors, manufacturers and customers. Increased communication from the field, and immediate action on the part of standards committees will surely help to address the concerns. But if it was my wife, child or loved one (or myself) that was disfigured in a mishap, then any explaination would surely fall on deaf ears. It can't be like Ford with the PINTO figuring "We have enough money to pay for the problems (lawsuits) down the road". Economics should not be figured into this one..if the product type or design cannot be made safe, don't make it ! I hope my expectations are not too high in this matter. As if to confirm thoughts about the potential danger with gas, a propane company (Star Gas Service) near here (in South Jersey) had a major explosion this week. The cause has not been determined, one report said "static electricity". Anyway, it closed off a major highway in the area, and stalled traffic on many Phila area bridges and freeways. In this case they got lucky, only one injury..and they were able to manually shut off valves leading to the multiple 30,000 gallon tanks (that were saved). The fire was restricted to a number of containers on a truck and surrounding area. It did make the news big time, and the front of local widely read papers. If anyone wants to view a picture of the damage, go to http://hearth.com/explode.jpg Today's stupid suggestions for safer gas products: 1. Include a minimum vent kit and termination with ALL direct vents..include it in the BOX with giant red labels about the venting requirements. 2. Safety Screen on ALL stoves,inserts and fireplaces, at least until it's proven there is ZERO chance of flying sharp glass. 3. Make it mandatory for retailers and installers to get an immediate and continuing education in gas safety matters. The FIREWRIGHT, HEARTH and other programs are addressing these needs. I know Vermont Castings recently sent out an offer to get FIREWRIGHT to their dealers (at a discounted price, I think). Maybe HPA members should pay a little higher dues and get a free copy with their renewal. On one hand, I dislike having to bring up such an unpleasant subject as the above. However, if our increased awareness saves any injury or liability..then it's worth it to me to be the "boy who cried wolf". End of Digest - Send posts to [email protected]
Subject: Hearth Digest 9/10/96 In this digest:
1. More on Education
2. Educate me on gas---gas guru's wanted
1. To: [email protected] Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 07:51:31 PST Subject: Safety in our own stores & Education X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,9-10,12-14,19-20,22,26,38-39,41-44 From: [email protected] (Jonathan A Harman) Safety in our own stores The recent Fair explosions has got me thinking about the safety of our own installations in our stores. This is something I would guess that a lot of us are guilty of. Due to the limitations of the building we rent, isn't it tempting to make an installation work weather it is to manufacturers specs or not??? I have visited other stores and saw things that would never pass an inspection in a customers home. These types of displays should NOT BE DONE!!! If we are willing to do a makeshift installation in our own home (store), how can we be trusted to properly sell and install a hearth appliance in someone else's home??? So far I haven't heard of any accidents in a store with gas, wood or pellet product, but I have seen some amazingly bad installations. Education With the onslaught of mass merchants joining the ranks of the hearth product retailers (in the winter only), our knowledge is one of the strongest weapons available in our marketing arsenal. However, if we do not take steps in developing this weapon with ourselves and our employees, it won't be worth using. There are two simple steps for developing our knowledge, and one is absolutely FREE!!! 1) Take the instruction manual out of the product and READ it. Have your employees READ it. If there is a question call the manufacturers 800 number and talk with a person in the technical department and pass the answers along to your employees. 2) Take advantage of the HEARTH programs and FIREWRIGHT program. Yes, this step is more time consuming, costly, and some states do not recognize those certifications (these are the factors that have slowed me down). As far as the state, they don't pay your bills, the consumer does. Time, there is usually plenty in the summer. Money? Depending on your situation this can be a problem. To help with the money situation, manufacturers should make this expense payable in part if not in full with our co-op account. Do any manufacturers do this??? Also the HPA affiliates could help by sponsoring test dates, maybe even cover part of the cost to its members. Do any affiliates do this??? Maybe paying higher HPA dues and getting a copy of the FIREWRIGHT program with our HPA membership certificate is a good place to start? To sum this up, our education is not only a sales tool, it will also prevent mishaps in our installations and our burning displays. Jonathan Harman [email protected]
2. Educate me on gas---gas guru's wanted (Craig Issod, [email protected]) OK, I just know there are some folks that can give me a definitive explaination of the gas codes RE: Shutoff Valves in the same room....as in the examples below: 1. A Gas log set into an existing fireplace with a safety pilot valve. Is this valve the approved shut off, or do you need to have a additional shutoff IN THE ROOM. Inspectors are making us put the keyed valves in the floor or wall which is very time consuming and costly. Please enlighten me, and hopefully explain where I can find it in writing. 2. A Gas Fireplace Insert..same situation as above. For instance, an Avalon Avanti Insert, which has no room for an accessible shut off under it. 3.A Mendota or Heat N' Glo fireplace, which has a manual valve installed uder the bottom grill in addition to the gas control. I'm pretty sure this one is OK, and am wondering why every manufacturer does not follow this lead and install a manual valve. Also, it's difficult to find READABLE gas information, such as : Do you have to use galvinized pipe when outside (not underground) ? Are you allowed to use reducing bushings with gas piping ? Could someone answer these questions and point us at an easy to understand source of these and other answers. We must have stuff in writing so we can get code officials off our backs. On another matter, it seems like the installation of gas logs is going for very low prices, considering the work to be done. In our area, it's $175. to $225. Labor and Material. If a permit is obtained, the following steps are required. 1. Fill out permit (assumes customer acts as gopher) 2. Go to home, install gas piping, including drilling thru masonry, etc. Turn off gas supply to home to re pipe for logs. Install extra shutoff valve in floor or wall. Test piping, install pressure gauge and pump up for inspector. 3. Return to job, install log set, test. Then, you must figure in the cost of material, possible callbacks (probably 1 out of 10 with gas logs. Can money be made on jobs like this? Makes be hunger for the old days of installing a wood fireplace insert..in and out in about 1 1/2 hours and make $200. labor ! Craig
1. Answers on questions about gas installations. (some GREAT answers here folks - assuming I'm not the only clueless one on the list, you might want to print these out...thanks to the respondents, and also to Aladdin Steel who faxed some info to us)
2. Job Offer - Kentucy
3. Lenox - Regency - ?? Date: 10 Sep 96 23:15:15 EDT
From: "JOHN C. CRUMP" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 9/10/96 Dear Craig, Regarding your questions concerning gas installations. I just this evening returned from a seminar conducted by Piedmont Natural Gas Co., which is the largest gas company in North Carolina. They have recently stopped selling appliances and seem to be doing a great job in helping dealers in their marketing and education of gas products. At this seminar a local building inspector was present. Some of the same questions you raised in your digest were discussed. My understanding is that while some of these questions are addressed by AGA and others the final authority is the local building code and local inspector. In our meeting dealers and installers were from at least 6 different counties. The inspector present was quick to tell us that he could only speak for his county and that we need to check with the local inspector for things such as location of shut off valves. This doesn't make our jobs any easier. Every time I attend a gas seminar, it re-enforces my decision not to do gas installations. We sub out all of this work to licensed plumbers and contractors and this seems to work fine for us. In my opinion there is no way to properly do a gas log install, to code etc. for $150-175. I rest easier at night because of this. Enjoy the digest. Sincerely, John Crump Hickory Stove & Patio Comments: Authenticated sender is <[email protected]>
From: "Bob Borgeson" <[email protected]> Organization: AGA Research To: [email protected] Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:44:41 -5 Subject: Gas Code Information Reply-To: [email protected] Priority: normal In a recent issue, Craig indicated that he needed a source of expertise on Gas Installation Codes. Unfortunately, what he is asking for is not entirely possible.... The Codes for installation of gas appliances generally start with the National Fuel Gas Code. They then get amended into several regional Codes. From there, they are adopted with amendments into local Codes. In some areas (New York State, for example), they write their own Code from scratch. The point is that an expert who is focused on Codes at a national level has no way to know the details of what is required in your local area. In the end, a good working relationship between the installer, gas utility and inspector is your best bet. As a reference source, you might consider purchasing the National Fuel Gas Code Handbook. This is a hardcover volume which contains the text of the Code as well as additional explanations and interpretations. You can order it from American Gas Association (703) 841-8559 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bob Borgeson Program Manager - Residential Appliances A.G.A. Research, A Division of Energy International [email protected] Webmaster - GASWEB http://www.gasweb.org/gasweb ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Educate me on gas: could someone answer these questions and point us at an easy to understand >source of these and other answers. We must have stuff in writing so we can >get code officials off our backs. Our local code authority uses the National Fuel Gas Code (NFPA 54, ANSI Z223.1) to decide matters concerning gas appliances. We use the National Fuel Gas Code Handbook (available through the NFPA toll-free line at 1-800-344-3555) to "decode" the code book. Most of the issues you raise are covered by code spec 5.5.4, and are explained in the Handbook: >1. A Gas log set into an existing fireplace with a safety pilot valve. Is >this valve the approved shut off, or do you need to have a additional >shutoff IN THE ROOM. Inspectors are making us put the keyed valves in the >floor or wall which is very time consuming and costly. Please enlighten me, >and hopefully explain where I can find it in writing. According to our code authority's interpretation of code spec 5.5.4, an approved manual shutoff must be provided in addition to the pilot valve: however, it doesn't need to be a Dante-type keyed shutoff. The Handbook says the code spec allows any approved shutoff to be installed inside the fireplace for gas logs, or even in the crawlspace or outside the house as long as it is within 6 feet of the gas logs and the gas logs are hard-plumbed in (no flex connector). The Handbook goes on to say: "Note that while this valve can be used in an emergency, it is NOT required to be located so that it is immediately accessible in an emergency". >2. A Gas Fireplace Insert..same situation as above. For instance, an Avalon >Avanti Insert, which has no room for an accessible shut off under it. When dealing with an insert, check to see if it is listed as a "decorative gas appliance". If so, the shutoff may be located anywhere inside the fireplace, same as for gas logs. If not, it may still be located anywhere within six feet. In either case, the Handbook says it need not be immediately accessible (you can install it behind the surround panels, for example). The codebook requires shutoffs to be installed upstream of the connector, so if your installation includes a flex connector, you can't locate the shutoff inside the control valve compartment of the insert (which is downstream of the connector), even if there's room. >3. A Mendota or Heat N' Glo fireplace, which has a manual valve installed >under the bottom grill in addition to the gas control. I'm pretty sure this >one is OK, and am wondering why every manufacturer does not follow this >lead and install a manual valve. Our code authority won't accept the shutoff inside the bottom grill, as it is downstream of the flex connector. As to getting the code inspectors off our backs, we've learned (the hard way) that code specs are subject to interpretation by each local code authority: before implementing any spec found in the Gas Codebook, check with your code department to see what their spin might be. Don't be afraid to challenge existing local interpretations, however: armed with the National Fuel Gas Codebook and Handbook, you can sometimes get them to alter their policies. Tom Oyen [email protected] http://www.nas.com/~chimneysweep
2. Job Offer - Kentucy Area Fro: [email protected] Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:55:42 -0400 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 9/4/96 I would like to offer someone a job as a wholesale salesman/sales manager for the louisville kentucky area. We are an established hearth products dist- ributor with 20 yrs experience.GREAT OPPORTUNITY! fax resume to 812.473. 9688 or call 812.473.9690 We wish to purchase an Escalra stove dolly also.
3. Lenox/Regency, etc. ([email protected] . Craig Issod) A year or so ago, it was rumored that Lenox was going to really attack the gas market with an amazing fireplace that beat everything else out in the looks and efficiency department. I have since seen their unit advertised (in fact , only on the Internet), and have heard very little. I did hear that Regency was supposedly under agreement to manufacture a unit for them. Anyone got the skinny on their Marketing plans. Heck, if it's the be-all, end-all I'd like to buy a truckload ! End of Digest
Subject: Hearth Digest 9/14/96 Cc:
HearthNet has hit another milestone this week, over 2500 Seperate visitors have read over 16,000 pages ! Next week we should pass 3000 visitors, which is already higher than our first "goal" of 10,000/month. Guess I'll have to set another goal ! Lots of reading here today - enjoy !!! In this Digest:
1. Firewright Program now available
2. Regency and Lennox, and being your own best competition
3. HPA Press Releases (from Board Meeting)
4. More funny installtion stories
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:03:12 -0700 From: Susan Kalish <[email protected]> Organization: Hearth Products Association Mime-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: FIREWRIGHT In case you hadn't heard, HPA's new FIREWRIGHT training program is READY and available. HPA started filling orders two weeks ago - all back orders have been shipped. HPA is now filling orders as they come in. We sent a brochure about the program in August to targeted mailing lists. If you would like to receive more information on FIREWRIGHT, a basic gas hearth appliance training program, please contact me at 703-522-0086 or via e-mail, [email protected]. THANK YOU! _________________________________________________________________________
2. Regency and Lennox X-Sender: [email protected] Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:48:40 -0700 To: [email protected] From: Christie Martindale <[email protected]> Subject: Lenox/Regency We recently had our fair and our Regency Factory Rep, Al Gendron(From California)was helping to man our booth. We had heard this same rumor and questioned him about it. It's not a rumor! Regency is working with Lennox. As for their(Lennox) marketing plan, I know nothing. We want to know if Lennox dealers can get Regency, can Regency dealers get Lennox? That's a furnace I wouldn't mind selling! If the lines between hearth dealer and HVAC dealer are going to be blurred, we might as well sell the best of both products. Does this mean we, as hearth dealers, can ditch our big bucks showrooms and go to working our of an industrial unit? Will the HVAC dealer send his customers to us, so they can see the product, and then undercut us on price? Will our showrooms become an extension of his business, with out compensation to us? Competition is rampant, we must be professional and be our own competition. In our store we have a saying, "We are the competition", this means we have to do better than ourselves. We have to surpass our best efforts! Christie Martindale Bishop Woodstove, Bishop CA ___________________________________________________________
3. HPA Press Releases (from Board Meeting) Contact: Kate Poindexter September 12, 1996 (703) 522&endash;0086 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE HPA BOARD RE&endash;TARGETS FIRE WORKS® PROMOTION CAMPAIGN FOR FALL, 1997 Arlington, VA &endash;&endash;&endash; Meeting in Arlington, Virginia, September 7, the Board of Directors of the Hearth Products Association (HPA) confirmed the plans for the association's FIRE WORKS consumer advertising campaign in October and November of 1996, but decided to make major changes in the campaign for the 1997&endash;98 hearth season. "We recognize that HPA does not have the funds available to make a major impact in national consumer advertising media," said HPA Board Chairman, Bill Mathewson (Vermont Castings, Bethel, VT). "Therefore, the Board has decided to begin exploring at this time other ways to communicate the FIRE WORKS promotion messages and promote sales of hearth appliances in the future." The Board noted the success of the association's Public Relations campaign in bringing shelter magazine editors to the HPA Hearth & Home EXPO in 1995 and 1996. They said that this type of effort, along with the development of creative materials which can be used by HPA member dealers should be the focus of future campaigns. Education and communications programs to help hearth products dealers conduct effective advertising campaigns in their local market were among the suggestions raised at the meeting for use of the HPA promotion funds. "The HPA has a responsibility to help dealers promote hearth products to consumers," said Mathewson. "Two years ago this Board of Directors increased dues to fund our FIRE WORKS promotion campaign, and we must deliver value to our dealers for that investment," he said. The Board took early action to re&endash;direct the emphasis of promotional campaign spending as part of the budget development process for the fiscal year beginning January 1, 1997. It directed the Communications Committee to explore alternative means of maximizing the effectiveness of the FIRE WORKS campaign budgets. "We will explore all alternatives to get the most 'bang for the HPA buck,'" said HPA Communications Committee Chairman, Chris Caron (Duraflame, Stockton, CA). "The strength of the messages in this campaign have been amply demonstrated, and we plan to build upon those strengths," he said.
Contact: September 12, 1996 Kate Poindexter (703) 522&endash;0086 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE HPA BOARD DECLINES REVISED HEARTH AGREEMENT; DIRECTS STAFF TO FURTHER EXPLORE CERTIFICATION Arlington, VA &endash;&endash;&endash; After extended discussion of a revised Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the Hearth Products Association (HPA) and the HEARTH Education Foundation (HEARTH), the HPA Board of Directors decided at its meeting in Arlington, Virginia on September 7, not to accept the proposed agreement and directed its staff to research hearth industry certification needs and prepare recommendations for further Board action. Steven Pawley (Steven Pawley, Inc., Rochester, NY), a member of the HPA Board of Directors and Chairman of the Certification Subcommittee of the HPA Education Committee, told the HPA Board that with the help of the HPA staff he had explored a number of alternative approaches for development of hearth industry certification programs and concluded that a new relationship with the HEARTH Foundation would be the best way to proceed. Toward that end, he had negotiated the revised MOU which he presented to the HPA Board on September 7 with the endorsement of the HPA Education Committee. He said that the terms of the revised proposal were the result of extensive negotiations with the HEARTH Foundation and that additional revisions may not be possible. After a thorough reading of the proposal, the HPA Board concluded that the terms of the agreement were not in the best interests of HPA or its members. Under the MOU, HPA would have responsibility for marketing and promotion of education and certification programs, but ownership of all materials remained with the HEARTH Foundation. The revised MOU called for HPA to fund HEARTH activities and for HPA staff to provide support services to HEARTH. The initial funding to be provided by the HPA to HEARTH was approximately $98,000, and the cost of other HPA responsibilities would be an additional $160,000. HPA would receive any revenues under the agreement as a partial offset of the costs. According to HPA President, Carter Keithley, the Board of Directors declined the proposal because terms of the agreement provided for an uneven division of responsibilities and authorities between the two organizations and because the agreement was not a manageable arrangement. The Board declined the MOU by a vote of 16 to 2, with 5 abstentions. Keithley said the abstaining Board members indicated that they were not prepared to vote on the relatively complex agreement without a better understanding of the terms and more time for consideration. Following the decline of the MOU, the Board adopted a motion directing HPA staff to undertake the research and work necessary to analyze the needs for certification programs in the hearth industry and prepare recommendations for further Board consideration.
4. More Strange Stories ([email protected]) I have to thank Mike at our WIlliamstown store ..who seems to get all the winners and relates them to me. One guy came in today..seems he had a Heat N' Glow that was not heating well enough for him. He decided that the big glass door in the front was the problem, so he went right out and purchased another set of glass dors and installed them ( after removing the factory glass)..still no luch- so he came into our shop looking to place a set of vent free logs into the same fireplace ! Another guy had an Vent Free log in his fireplace, and decided to switch back to wood..how ? ..easy, he just removed the loose logs and used the unvented burner as his log lighter...works great , he said. Scenes like this are what concerns me about gas safety. We can all agree that gas, in itself, has a proven tracl record for safety...but give an infinite number of typewriters to an infinite number of monkeys and.......(for those who don't know the ending for that saying it's "sooner or later one will type the Works of Shakespeare") End of Digest - Send posts to [email protected] -------------------------------
Hearth Digest Sept 18,1996 Cc: Bcc: main X-Attachments: Message-Id:
Big Week at HearthNet - Due to various factors, inlcuding being featured on YAHOO, this week will be our biggest week ever, BY FAR. We alreay have in excess of 3000 visitors THIS WEEK, and over 15,000 pages looked at. By the end of the week we expect these number to double ! Also, please read and understand the Press Release below. If this is an issue that you care about - get involved. Call your HPA or HEARTH contacts and let them know how you feel - pro or con. I'm sure the HPA board and HEARTH want to do what the majority of HPA members want...but unless folks let them know what it is they want....... In this issue:
1. HEARTH PRESS RELEASE
2. Gas Safety Input- Are they listening ?
3. Job Opening in Beautiful Virginia
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:25:36 +0000 From: Ben Weathersby <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Mime-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: HEARTH press release September 18, 1996 Contact: Ben Weathersby Phone/fax (404) 728-0227 e-mail: benw @ netime.com
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE The HEARTH Board of Directors is deeply concerned by the HPA Board's rejection of a second Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) for joint delivery of certification negotiated with HEARTH. HEARTH provides the following information to clarify the ongoing impasse with HPA leadership and to indicate potential consequences to rank and file members of HPA. 1. HEARTH's major source of revenue, its long-standing contract with HPA to provide EXPO educational programs, was terminated after the Charlotte show this year. 2. An agreement to share staff and offices was abandoned by HPA in June when HEARTH postponed implementation to secure terms of funding that were missing in the agreement. 3. HEARTH's action plan to achieve financial stability for certification calls for gaining safety officials' endorsement to establish professional credentials recognized and valued by consumers. 4. Such recognition by safety officials is possible for an independent foundation whose mission is public safety and which closely follows nationally recognized guidelines to assure program integrity. These national certification standards clearly and specifically call for a certifying agency's independence from the influence of a trade association, whose primary--and proper--mission is product sales. 5. Intense negotiations conducted with HPA designated representatives in July and August produced an agreement which would have given control of administrative duties such as marketing and order fulfillment to HPA staff. HEARTH would have retained autonomy only over the content and direction of the program in order to avoid improper influence and to be able to secure official recognition. While HPA would guarantee a funding level to support HEARTH's action plan and bear the costs of administration, it would also receive all of HEARTH's future revenues (approximately $95,000 in its last fiscal year) to offset these costs. Despite approval of the agreement by the HPA Education Committee, the HPA Board rejected the negotiated agreement. 6. As HEARTH understands, HPA intends to conduct a feasibility study/survey to determine industry support for certification. By its own estimates, an HPA produced certification would cost at least $450,000, and would not begin until at least two years after a decision was made. Even with time and money, HPA certification could be very limited in recognition and value if developed as a trade association program lacking proper independence. HPA leadership could also effectively end professional certification by continuing to defer funding or by eventually rejecting the high cost of redeveloping certification programs. The HEARTH Board remains firmly convinced of the increasing importance of credentialed professionals in an industry involved so closely with public safety. HEARTH understands its responsibility to thousands of certified professionals and to the general public. While all current programs are continuing without interruption, the HEARTH Board is diligently searching for new avenues to achieve stable funding. HEARTH welcomes input and suggestions from concerned members of the hearth industry by phone (802) 728-3569; fax (802) 728-9657, mail at 2 Main Street/Randolph, VT 05060, and by e-mail through [email protected].
2. Gas Safety Input- Are they listening ? Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 18:34:48 -0700 From: Jim Butchart <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Organization: Hearth & Color Shop Mime-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Getting involved in gas safety standards There was a recent post encouraging participation in the safety standards process. In the past several months I have done just that and with this post I will relay my experiences and the communication that I have just received. Last fall I had a cutomer severely injured when a gas insert exploded. Call it a delayed ignition if you wish. My physician customer took glass in the face and had his Ulna nerve severered in his arm. I posted the details last year on this forum. I received several responses, two of which were from Canadians who sit on the ANSI Z21 standards subcommittee. They encouraged me to detail the particulars and submit suggestions to the committee that would be meeting in the Spring. I did as they suggested, submitting four proposals. We felt the explosion was the result of a strong downdraft that extinguished the burner and pilot. The model in question had a draft hood that was isolated in the fireplace behind tight fitting surround panels. The path of least resistance for the downdraft was through the combustion box instead of the drafthood. The thermopile kept the burner valve open for more than a minute. The resulting air-gas mix was ignited probably by a nearby pilot. My proposals: 1. Make it a standard that gas fireplace inserts not be allowed to use the fireplace cavity for draft hood air. Many insert models have tight fitting surround panels that make a draft hood useless. 2. Draft hoods should have unrestricted access to air in the same pressure zone as the combustion air. 3. Consider the elimination of loose fill that is added onto burners by installers. 4. Considering that thermopile dropout is too slow, the combination of a thermopile and a thermocouple as a flame sensor should be considered manditory. Six months later I received the following response: "Regarding the draft hood concerns, the joint subcommittee considered you [sic] letter and asked that staff write you to let you know that these concerns would be considered with in the next six months... Regarding the addition of loose fill on top of a burner, the joint subcommittee stated that enhancements have been made to the loose fill coverage which should address your concerns. See the review and comment text dated August 1996 for the ANSIZ21.86." This is what was proposed: "2.20 (Added)Loose Materials Loose materials, such as rock wool or glowing embers when provided shall not adversely effect the performance of the heater." How is an installer to know when he/she has adversely effected the performance of the heater? There is no control. As to my concern about the slow dropout of thermopiles, which has the most potential for disaster, the response was: "The subcommittee did not agree with your concern about the thermopile dropout. It was stated that there did not seem to be a problem at this time." Apparently my customers laserations did not qualify as a problem. But there is a problem! The problem is that the people that are establishing the standards for the appliances we are installing in people's homes are in most cases manufacturers. The fox guarding the hen house syndrome. I suggest that when you experience a gas stove disaster that you not only get the manufacturer involved, but that you document the situation for the ANSI standards subcommittee as well. They obviously are hearing neither from the troops in the field nor from the manufacturers. The next meeting of the Z21/CGA Joint Subcommittee on Standards for Vented Gas-Fired Warm Air Heaters is Octover 22-23 in Cleveland. You should request a copy of the proposed revisions from: Ms. Cthy L. Rake IAS - US, Inc. 8501 E. Pleasant Valley Road Cleveland, Ohio 44131 Unfortunately comment on the proposed revisions has to be submitted by September 20. -- Jim Butchart [email protected] Santa Rosa, California http://www.HearthShop.com
3. Job Opening in Beautiful Virginia From: [email protected] Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:13:45 -0400 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Hearth Digest Positions open in beautiful Richmond, Virginia area: SALES: Full time but seasonal. Excellent salary plus generous commission. Perfect for retiree or homemaker, position extends until April 1, 1996. TECHNICIAN: Full time, salaried position. Truck, tools provided. Salary commensurate with experience. Prefer hearth product experience but will consider experience with gas products, heating systems or home appliances. Fax resume' or phone number to contact you. Hearth & Home Shoppe Inc. Mechanicsville, Virginia Phone (804) 730-3800 Fax (804) 730-2500 Attn: Karen Duke or David Carrington
Subject: Hearth Digest 9/20/96
1. Gas Safety Note
2. New Woodheat Site on the Web !
1. Gas Safety Note From: [email protected] Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:46:28 -0400 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Hearth Digest Sept 18,1996/exploding stoves In a message dated 96-09-18 23:58:18 EDT, you write: << Considering that thermopile dropout is too slow, the combination of a thermopile and a thermocouple as a flame sensor should be considered manditory. >> QuadraFire NG & Propane stoves use a thermocouple along with their thermopile for this very reason. Sometimes, beauty is more than skin deep... Peace, Ed (Auth QuadraFire...)
2. New Woodheat Site on the Net Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:44:25 -0700 From: John Gulland <[email protected]> Organization: Gulland Associates Inc. Mime-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: www.wood-heat.com goes on line ++++++ ANNOUNCEMENT ++++++++ www.wood-heat.com goes on line Some colleagues and I have been busy these past few months building a new web site with the sole purpose of promoting the merits of wood heating. The whole story is at http://www.wood-heat.com We still have a lot of work to do, but I think you'll get the idea. Come visit, link to us on your web page, and by all means, let us know what you think. Regards, John End of Digest - Send posts to [email protected] ------------------------------------------------
In this Digest:
1 Help with Glossary From [email protected] (Craig Issod)
OK, folks, this is where you pay your dues to the list. I'd like to put together a definition of ALL hearth terms for the HearthNet site, but my head is expoloding right about now, and I can't think straight. I figure a few hundred heads are better than one. Here's what I need: Think up some common (and not so common) terms --everything that relates to chimneys, stoves, fireplaces, gas, draft, etc.....not brand names.....and email me the words. IMPORTANT - Put the word "glossary" (without the quotes)...somewhere in the BODY (the regular text message area) of your message to me. Email your submissions to [email protected]. If you have a lot of energy, you can write a short definition of the words. If you already have a glossary (manufacturers and other), and wish to share it, please email the text of fax to 609-654-2114 First prize - Everybody wins - a free subscription to the Hearth Digest, where you can read New Jersey Sarcasm and Humor at it's best....for instance... We had a problem in the shop today....Seems one of our salesfolks took a deposit on a gas fireplace insert, and misunderstood that a vent kit and front (about $500. extra) had to be ordered with this insert body. So, we called the customer, told him of the mistake, and informed him we would send him his deposit money right back--including an extra $50. for his trouble. Well, you know the rest of the story--he did not want his money back..he wanted the unit complete for the mistaken price (Luckily the invoice did not mention the complete unit or vent). I informed him that we could not do this, and that if both of us (Stoveworks and him) were not happy prior to the installation, we should not go any further. He called back..on a speaker phone..and introduced me to his attorney that was in the room with him. Or, I should say, his buddy who was supposed to try to act like his attorney. He demanded the unit and accussed me of "bait and switch" (I should say that this was a unit we don't stock or show, and he'd been everywhere shopping and knew EXACTLY what the price and options should have been). "Bait and Switch?", I said...now what good would that do me, I didn't try to switch you to another unit, did not even try to get more money out of you..simply admitted a mistake, and offered you an immediate refund. Anyway, he sensed real soon that he was not getting amywhere with me...and said he'd call me back. A few minutes later his "attorney" called me and said "OK, we want the money back..but we want it back right now". "Well" I said, "No Problem", "just give me your credit card number and I'll credit you within 5 minutes". This threw him for a big loop..and he had to put the customer back on the phone. He said " Craig, jump on your horse and bring me the cash..right now, today...drive it down to me (45 minutes away). It took me about 10 minutes to convince him that I was not going to drive it down. I even tried the "It's a Jewish High Holiday" excuse....he countered with "Have someone else do it". He just would not let up...I offered that he could pick up the cash at our other store..closer to him. He said "My time's worth $500. and hour...and the trip would take me that long". "Well then, I countered, if you're worth $500. and hour, why have you spent over an hour yelling at me on the phone...you could have just paid us the correct price for the unit and everyone would be happy" At that, he had nothing left to say..."Just make it a certified check, and send it next day air" (They don't fly planes between here and Mays Landing, NJ) After I got off the phone, I wrote the check (not certified), placed it in an envelope (.32 cents) and put it in the mailbox..he'll get it tommorrow anyway, and if he makes $500 and hour, the few hundred bucks I refunded should hurt his cash flow for one day. The moral of the story - Other than my usual "Avoid Error", it's --- "The Season is upon us". Sorry for boring you with that one.. PLEASE SEND YOUR HEARTH TERM DEFINITIONS - Remember to [email protected] the word - glossary- somewhere in the body text. End of Digest - Send posts to [email protected] ----------------------------------------------------------
1. More Customer Stories
2. Handling those "pain in the ass" customers
3. Looking for the crane arms for fireplaces 4. Installer wanted for job
1. More Customer Stories Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:35:52 -0500 To: [email protected] From:[email protected] Subject: More stories I am not so sure about your glossary request....... well ok i'll try a few........ gas fireplace, gas stove, gas logs, gas tools, gas cleaners, gas inserts, gas embers, gas valves, gas pipe, gas ozone remover, .... wood burning stuff. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to hear more "friendly" customer, "friendly" supplier, and store blunder stories.... they make me feel warm and appreciative. If we all shared a couple idiot episodes from our business life it will be easier to get thru the day realizing we are not alone...... kg I had a good one today....... Customer Mr J called me and wanted to know why he recieved a bad credit rating from his bank and the credit bureau attatched to our company when he went to buy a new car.... It appears, Mr J built a home 4 years ago and when the builder didn't pay his bills.... we contacted the home owner Mr. J and told him he still owed us $1500 on the fireplace we installed in his house. He said he wouldn't pay because he had paid his builder.....We told him that was too bad because we never recieved our money ...... so we filed a lien....... The owner sent us $1000 after several months of haggeling over the bill....... and we wrote off the rest two years later. Now he wants to buy a car and the bank says he needs to clear up the $500 debt (plus interest) on his credit record. The owner wants us to call his bank and the credit bureau and tell them that we made a mistake and that his record should be clear........... Now what would you do? }=<) the kg-one _____________________________________ Visit the Emporium http://www.weyrkeep.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- " Dragons Breathe Best Together Forge a Stronger Fire" _____________________________________ Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:27:25 -0500 To: [email protected] From: [email protected] (Noel Gilmore)
2. Handling those "pain in the ass" customers >The moral of the story - Other than my usual "Avoid Error", it's --- "The >Season is upon us". > >Sorry for boring you with that one.. No bore at all. Being female, I've never learned to be very good at handling customers who enjoy such rough and tumble game playing, and it was nice to see how you played it. It does, however, exploit my fear of what's going to happen (and soon) when there is someone else besides my husband or myself handling customers in the showroom! It's natural to think that a confident aggressive individual is a better choice as a salesperson, either in or outside the store, but I've noticed that when you've a situation, such as selling hearth products, where it's REALLY important that the person giving the info to the customer be absolutely correct, these kind of folks are a real liability as a new hire...with the best of possible intentions they are apt to give very incorrect impressions to customers, not realizing, or even being concerned, that such incorrect info might injure or kill, or at worst cause a hullabaloo where the appliance is being used. A less self-confident individual is more likely to listen when told, "Don't say anything to a customer unless you're sure it's 100% correct, and if you don't know the answer to a question, admit it and go ask someone who knows!" As for learning the business, jeepers, I've been at it for 8 years now, but I've always had the benefit of, say, relating to my husband over dinner what went on with a customer that day and what I told her, making sure it was correct, and I find I STILL make the odd technical faux pas (which I can then correct via a phone call the next day)...no employee is ever going to be THAT conscientious. Any advice from those of you who are farther along in this process that we are? Noel Gilmore Autumn Moon Fireplaces Port St. Lucie, FL
3. Looking for the crane arms for fireplaces Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 17:07:13 -0400 To: [email protected] From: [email protected] (Noel Gilmore) Subject: Looking for a crane or arm Pilgrim used to make a wrought iron arm ( their item #CR-18) which could be installed on the wall of the fireplace, and on its end could be hung a pot for cooking or boiling water, etc. It's been so long since I ordered one that I didn't realize that Pilgrim seems no longer to make it. Does anyone know where I can order such a thing? Noel Gilmore Autumn Moon Fireplaces
4. Installer wanted for job Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:51:56 From: [email protected] (Chimney Sweep, Inc.) To: [email protected] Subject: Installers wanter Our customers have purchased a Heatilator 0-Can and a Pacific Energy woodstove, complete with all parts needed for installation except the chase top (needs to be made to measure after the chase is finished), and are looking for someone to install them in their under-construction Summer cabin in the Leavenworth, Washington area (near Wenatchee). Any certified installers on the list in that area or reasonably nearby who want to contract with these good folks to do the installation? They go side-by side in the same chase/alcove. Please E-Mail me direct if you're interested, & I'll FAX installation diagrams. We figure it's a one-day job for a two man crew. They should be ready mid-November. Tom Oyen [email protected] http://www.nas.com/~chimneysweep End of Digest -
My thanks to aladdin steel for faxing me a great glossary of Hearth Terms from one of their manuals... I'm compiling this along with others that I have into the "mother of all hearth glossaries" which will be posted on HearthNet. Credit and links will be given on the glossary page to all who contributed - so send in those old definitions....keep em' coming. Hmm ! next thing we'll have to do is identify, name and place all the 100's of stove brands that have gone by the wayside.......
1. Interesting Customers
2. Long Key for gas valves
3. Great IDEA book...
10From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Interesting Customers I spent a week with a guy this afternoon who was beside himself because yesterday I wouldn't sell him the red rubbery gasket for put on the glass of his four or five year old Heat N Glo 4000 DV, giving him the company line that the glass needed to be replaced if the gasket had failed. He claimed to have spoken with the Treasurer of the State of Oregon who was having exactly the same problem as well as people at Oregon DEQ who were also having the same exact problem. He was waiting for the EPA to call him back to arrange for a molecular analysis of the rubber gasket. Moreover, he couldn't understand why the strongest house-hold cleaners wouldn't clean his milky glass while the grease off his fingers worked...mine too. "What's in that stuff?" he demanded. I said that I didn't know but suggested that we bottle it and get rich. Failing to see my humor he spent thirty minutes with my bookkeeper while she did data searches trying to find his transaction sometime during the past five years. At least he forgot to follow through on his request for the phone numbers of the local Heat N Glo rep. (you owe me Ross) When we get an agrieved customer we easily retreat to "builder pricing" for the replacement part. If they really make us feel bad we go cost. However I'm thinking this guy is full list.
2.From: [email protected] (Noel Gilmore) Subject: Need long decorative gas valve key And here's something ELSE I'm looking for which I can no longer get: decorative keys for gas valves, but long ones, about 6"-7". My distributor no longer carries them because their supplier went out of business. They're a Taiwan item, I'm sure, so someone must have them. Anyone? Thanks for any help. Noel Gilmore Autumn Moon Fireplaces
3. From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Idea Book This post is of primary interest to those that participated in the 1995 HPA Retailer's Advisory Council, as I have stumbled upon The Answer, but I'm sure that it will be of interest to other retailers too. The Council was charged with finding ways to raise consumer interest and demand for hearth products, like the FireWorks program. What was generally agreed upon was that there is a need for a publication that showed a large variety of appealing installations, without product names or advertising, so that consumers can get good decorating ideas that center on hearth products. Like the pictures of the beautiful installations we have all done and and swear we will take pictures of someday and never do. You get the idea. On a recent business trip to Chicago I stumbled upon The Answer in a bookstore. It's called "A Portfolio of Fireplace Ideas" and is almost 100 pages of wood, gas and pellet stove installations from a wide variety of today's manufacturers. Many pictures are cuts from brochures that you will recognize, but it is a wonderful compilation of products that will spur your customers towards purchasing our industry's products It is published by Cy Decrosse Inc. 5900 Green Oak Drive Minnetonka Minnesota 55343 800-328-3895 and authored by Home How-To Institute. It retails for $9.95 It's not often that I find where someone has done my work for me, but this comes so close to what I think our customers need that I've ordered a dozen for my store (at a 45% discount by the way) to sell to my customers. It really beats the old Sunset Woodstoves book. Skip Stahmer Sierra Timberline Grass Valley, CA End of Digest -