Oct 02 ,1996 - - Back to List archives - Back to Club House
1. If anyone can help
2. Subject: Gas Safety
3. HearthNet and the Net - Value and Worth !
1. Regency and Lenox
2. Stove criminal sentenced
3. Any Manufacturers ready
From: Craig Issod <[email protected]>
1. Be on the lookput for higher oil, propane and gas prices
2. Another Gas Stove goes Boom !
1.Canadian Gas Safety
2. InstaFlame Supply Problems?
3. Summary of findings on improved gas safety
1. John Crouch on Gas Safety
2. Names, Please
3. One Vote for increased safety
1.Glass safety issues explained
2.Are standards enough ?
1. Theory as to gas explosions
2. Why standards and studies are often slow...
1.One Man's take on dealer responsibility
1. Is propane falling a myth ?
2. Canadian P4 standard as a selling tool
1. Properties of glass
2. Real World Propane experience
3. Another Take on Propane
4. Still more on LP
1. Falling Asleep - The cagey one !
2. Help Wanted
3. Jotul and Superior join to Market "Superior Jotuls"
4. Candles and Hearth
1. ICC Pipe and Mobile Homes
1. About the Piping in Mobile Homes
2. Unhappy with Vent Free
3. More about piping in Mobile Homes
4. Gas Logs in Mobile Homes ?
To: comp
From: Craig Issod <[email protected]>
Subject: Hearth Digest 10/2/96_______________________________________________________________
1. If anyone can help
2. Subject: Gas Safety
3. HearthNet and the Net - Value and Worth !
1. If anyone can help....
Please email this guy direct if you can help him:
Fom: [email protected]
Subject: Fireplace Doors
Hi,
Help!!! I'm trying to locate glass doors for a Pre-Way Built in Fireplace Model #BE411-AP. I know that Pre-way has been out of business for sometime now, but was curious if there are any suppliers out there with these in a warehouse.
Any help or contacts you can give will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Randy Brown
__________________________________________________________________________
2. From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 09:05:14 -0400
Subject: Gas Safety
Craig-
I'm a "lurker" who has been following the recent discussions of gas safety issues. Having a forum to ask questions and "vent" is a valuable function of the net. Thanks.
At HearthStone we've been doing gas longer than most companies. We continue to listen and learn, and improve our products. It's clear that you can never do too much in the area of safety, and the standards and practices will continue to evolve.
We've concluded that the 30 second pilot drop-out is an important feature. Even though it isn't required, we are incorporating it into all of our current designs. The revamped B-Vent Sterling, which started shipping last week, has it, as will the upgraded direct vent and the new cast iron/stone gas unit we're developing. It does add some cost, but it lets us sleep a little better as well.
It appears to be a great season! It's getting chilly here, and the trees are already producing their patented "Only in Vermont" spectacular colors. Too bad we're too busy to go wandering through the woods. Take it easy.
Dave Kuhfahl HearthStone Technical/R&D Department
3. HearthNet and the Net - Value and Worth ! by Craig Issod([email protected])
It's a bit mind boggling ! YAHOO today announced that they have had over 1 BILLION page views in the past three months. HearthNet is now seeing over 30,000 Page Views a week (That's one and a half million per year) and heading up quickly. YAHOO (The Company) has a Market value of 600 million dollars. HearthNet has a value of somehwhere around $1.00. A recent survey by AD age shows the average cost of a small web site (20 Pages) to be $26,000. This is average, with the highest being $200,000 and the lowest $2,800. Our current price for a maufacturers 10 page site is under $2000...including one year hosting and promotion. In other words, we not only create the site, but send the visitors there and maintain it. In addition, we provide general content. Are we too cheap ? Yes, but the folks who had the foresight to sign on with us early took a chance on us, and deserve to be rewarded for that. On the other hand, we don't have retailers and manufacturers beating a path to our door..One reason is that we may be too cheap ! Many folks equate spending money with receiving value, and if something sounds too good, it may not be the right way to go. So far, 100% of the hearthnet retailers I have spoken to have made sales directly from their internet site. My own retail store (Stoveworks) is now receiving DAILY inquiries and averaging a few sales a week directly related to the store's internet presence. many of these customers are local, right in our market area. What's the point ? None really, just very interesting to see the great differences in web site pricing. The big Ad Agencies and others scramble to explain to their clients why their web pages are "different" and "better". Question - Are they willing to back this up with a guarantee ? It's like all the new publications always coming in my shop trying to sell me display ads " Sure, I'll go in--tell you what, put me in for free and if I sell some stuff I'll continue advertising"...know how many have taken me up on this one - you guessed it - none at all ! I would venture to say that many of these $26,000 to $200,000 sites will become digital junkyards because their creators are not savvy in the workings of the internet. Nothing will kill a large site faster than just putting it up and leaving it sit. After all, how many of you read the newpapers and magazine from last year. Yes, HearthNet's prices will go up..but we will affirm that our traffic, site quality and other services will increase MORE than the prices.
1. Regency and Lenox
2. Stove criminal sentenced
3. Any Manufacturers ready
From: Deborah Millichamp <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 96 13:03:27 -700 To: [email protected] Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Regency response to Christie Martindale's letter " Regency and Lennox"
As Christie Martindale correctly pointed out (in the Sept. 13 e-mail) Fireplace Products International Ltd., parent of Regency Fireplace Products, is manufacturing 3 products for Lennox Industries. None of these products is from the Regency Product Line. So, it isn't quite correct to say that Lennox is getting a "Regency" ... they just happen to be manufactured in the same factory.
Lennox have been looking for a quality supplier in the Hearth Products industry and having looked at everyone, decided that FPI had the most to offer in research capability and state of the art manufacturing quality.
As Christie points out, Lennox is a premium priced, quality product and new Lennox fireplace units fit this profile.
There is no "cross selling" of brands in this marketing plan i.e. Regency dealers will continue to receive Regency brand products and Lennox dealers will receive Lennox brand products. Incidentally, FPI also manufactures non Regency product under the brand names "Masport" in Australia and New Zealand and "Ultraglow" in the Province of Ontario.
For further information contact Tony Woodruff at Regency or Peter Vander Plaat at Lennox. Sincerely, Tony Woodruff, Vice President, Sales and Marketing, Regency Fireplace Products Phone (604)946-5155 Fax (604)946-0479 or this e-mail address.
2. EPA Sentences Stove Criminal
The EPA has sentenced William A. Novak to serve three years probation and 240 hours of community service for his crimes in falsifying test records. The state government, in it's wisdom, has said that owners of the affected stoves can continue to use them. Reaction from the stove and enviornmental community has been swift and sure:
"Behead him" " Draw and quarter" are just some of the comment heard on the street corners. Below, reprinted with permission, are some of the comments from industry members.....
"What about restitution for the manufacturers from Nowak? Community service? How about cleaning chimneys for low income families! Or, what we do here when someone has been bad - clean the men's bathrooms of the affected manufacturers! (Be sure to clean around the nut caps on the base of that toilet, boy! No, I didn't mean the area behind the sink when I said to scrub the back splash!)"
"Should've had him drawn & quartered, I'm thinking. Nowak's heinous crime against Humanity will undoubtedly result in thousands of needless deaths, as innocent people with sensitive lungs inhale the extra gram or so per hour the falsely-approved "Nowack Death Machines" spew into the airshed.
The far-reaching repurcussions of Nowak's unconscionable crime are only just beginning to be debated by the world's regulatory agencies. Does it make any sense at all to ban public cigarette smoking or enforce industrial and vehicle emission limits while these life-choking devices are allowed to operate? I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
Future generations will undoubtedly revile the name of this notorious dealer of death; am waiting for the inevitable crime drama episode wherein the Medical Examiner turns to the Detectives and says, "Gentlemen, the evidence is conclusive: this man's been Nowacked!"
3. Please help this lady teach the future "Stove and Fireplace" specifiers of America.
OK, stove and fireplace makers..crank that PR machine into gear and email this nice lady:
From: [email protected] Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 15:22:28 -0400
Subject: Request for Information
Hello:
I have just been assigned a final term paper/class presentation at a local college on prefabricated fireplaces and heating stoves. In searching the www, I located your homepage and was hoping you might be able to make some suggestions regarding researching these two products.
Would you possibly have information available about the development of prefab fireplaces and heating stoves, why one might be better than the other, anything like video or sales tapes that demonstrate how they work, etc.?
I hope I'm not being way out of line and asking too much, but any information you could provide would be extremely helpful and could also be a good source of advertising (the class is has approx. 80 students in the architectural, landscape and interior design programs at school).
Thanks in advance for your help.
Ann Litman [email protected] 19552 Vineyard Lane Saratoga, CA 95070
Oct 08 22:32:06 1996
From: Craig Issod <[email protected]>
1. Be on the lookput for higher oil, propane and gas prices
2. Another Gas Stove goes Boom !
1. Be on the lookput for higher oil, propane and gas prices
(From Bruce Lisle, President Energex Pellets)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 11:54:00 -0700
From: "BLisle" <[email protected]>
Subject: Propane Price To: [email protected]
The following is a News Flash From the Pellet Fuels Institute:
According to the September 20, 1996 Kiplinger Letter, this is the outlook for fuel price during the next six months or so:
"HEATING OIL, HIGHER - Perhaps as much as another dime or more, depending on the weather and rebuilding of inventories for the winter. Biggest impact will be in New England, a major consumer of heating oil.
PROPANE WILL BE MORE EXPENSIVE IN THE NEXT SEVERAL MONTHS. Inventories are at a 25 year low, and demand continues quite strong. Many propane dealers held off filling tanks, figuring that prices would drop. Instead, prices went even higher and may rise another 25% this winter."
Stove dealers are already getting comments on the cost of propane. This is a great time to promote the Pellet Stove Option.
Author's Note: From this morning's Wall Street Journal,
Yesterday's Price 1 Year Ago % Change -----------------
Fuel Oil#2, NY $0.7659/gallon $0.4852 + 58%
Propane, Texas $0.5125/gallon $0.3128 + 64%
N Gas, Henry Hub $2.225/mmbtu $1.75 + 27%
There is an interesting article in the October 14th issues of Business Week on p. 39, "Making Sense of a Topsy-Turvy Energy Market, Why prices are spiking so often and with so little warning."
One of the reasons I got into the hearth industry was to provide an alternative to fossil fuels. I will never forget the picture in "Wood-N-Energy" (remember that magazine) of the Middle-Eastern fellow outside of a stove shop.
Natural gas may be the correct altenative for some consumers, however a propane unit has a completely different level of fuel costs. On either, there are no residue sales to the retailer. Pellet appliances are more reliable than ever, and according to the notes I read on this hearthlist, a lot easier to install. Pellet fuel prices have stabilized and even decreased in certain areas. Fuel availability in the East is a non-issue. We have some retailers who pay their basic overhead just from the profit on pellet fuel sales. Sales people should be directing consumers looking for convinence toward pellets, instead of immediately sending them toward a gas or propane unit. Gas-propane consumers may return to the showroom complaining about high energy costs, when we could have provided them a clean burning wood fire. This is how and why the industry took off in 1973.
2. Another Gas Stove goes Boom ! (from Craig Issod, [email protected])
I am sorry to report that we had another gas stove explode in a customers home today. It is a direct vent model from a major manufacturer, and it was LP. Early indications are that the installation was OK.
This concerns me greatly, because we don't sell too many direct vent appliances, and at least 3 have already gone boom. Taking these odds and counting the number of appliances sold would mean bad news for the industry.
In this situation, the stove was installed and tested for 45 minutes by the contractor. He left and the couple used the stove for a number of hours. The next day they were sitting on the couch - the thermostat called for heat---and BOOOMM ! The force of the explosion shattered the glass of the stove, and sent sharp pieces flying everywhere, including into the customer's wifes leg. The stove had a blowoff port that blew, but the force was too much and the glass did not hold.
I'm trying to be calm about his , but I must ask this question of ALL the manufacturers and test and research folks that are on this list. Are you all SO SURE that your appliances will not explode in ANY situation that you would forego putting a screen on the front of the unit?
It all comes down to the odds - if 1 in 1,000 stoves explode (our experience shows a lot more), then we are going to have some customers mained, blinded and possiby worse (heart attacks, etc.). Can you assure me that less than one in 1,000 or even 10,000 stoves can explode ? You KNOW that many stoves are installed improperly..even this should be covered.
Please, let's have some answers and opinions..not just techical jargon, but answers that assure us that you are protecting our customers and the public.
Still Scared...
Craig Issod
Stoveworks Inc.
___________________________
end of Digest - Post messages to [email protected]
To: comp
From: Craig Issod <[email protected]>
Subject: Hearth Digest 10/10/96_____________
Webmasters Note: The Gas Safety issue, especially the occurence of flying glass, has received quite a bit of response. I've heard from manufacturers as well as retailers. In addition, I placed a phonecall to Carter Keithly, HPA President, to alert him of the possibility of a Public Relations nightmare. Please note some of the manufacturers comments below, and my summary of the current matter at the bottom of this digest.
1.Canadian Gas Safety
2. InstaFlame Supply Problems?
3. Summary of findings on improved gas safety
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:54:16 -0700
X-Sender: johnfran@mail Mime-Version: 1.0
From: [email protected] (John Francisty)
Subject: 30 econd pilot drop-out
Craig:
Consumer safety has always been a priority at Pacific Energy as it is, I'm sure, with all other manufacturers. Products evolve and safety standards improve because of consumer feed back. Pilot safety drop-out time of 30 seconds or less is one of these improvements.
Although not in any current ANSI safety standards, it is addressed in the Interim Requirement #41 -Direct Vent Fireplaces (April 1991), which states: "2.10.7 The time required for the automatic gas ignition system to shut off the gas supply following loss of supervised flame shall not exceed 3 minutes and shall not exceed 30 seconds for a direct vent fireplace having a combustion chamber volume exceeding 2 cubic feet."
The unfortunate thing is that this safety feature is a Canada only requirement.
All of our products, including models marketed in the US, direct vent and conventional vent have the 30 second pilot drop-out feature.
John Francisty Technical Director Pacific Energy
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 09:30:58 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: [email protected] (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0
To: Craig Issod <[email protected]>
From: [email protected] (Trevor Bruintjes)
Subject: Re: exploding units
Craig,
To my knowledge no RSF Energy Gas product has exploded. We did have a delay in releasing our Panorama in propane. The reason for this is the LP gas and where we put the blowout panels. Because LP gas is heavier then NG gas, it sits in the bottom of the unit when it is lit and when it does explode it exploded below the log. If the blowout panels are not low enough the explosion goes out the glass. Make no mistake our blow out panels worked- but they were delayed and the glass went first. So we only relesesed the Panorama in LP a year later with modifications. The Video of the glass blowing out of the Panorama helped us realise where the problem lies...
The thermostat called for heat and the unit exploded.... this is different I thought most explosions happen when the customer is in front of the unit lighting it....
Look at what type of valve is used in the units that blow up. We use the Sit 820 valves because we feel that they are safer then the others. The Sit valve has a delay built in to the valve so the gas shuts off if you can't light it and pull your finger off the pilot button. This is to alow the gas to disapate below the exploding level. And if there is a malfunction with the pilot or burner gas because it has both a thermocouple and thermopile the gas just will not flow.. I won't get technical on you but it works, no extra gas just waiting to explode while the stove lights
Sincerly,
RSF Energy
Trevor Bruinjes
2. InstaFlame Supply Problems?
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 20:29:30 -0400
Subjet: Instaflame
I have been selling instaflame for over a year now and cannot believe what has recently happened. I have orders for standard 36" units that date back into late August! I cannot get any commitment from Majestic as to "if" let alone when I might get my orders filled. They make a great product that I have been very pleased to sell, However if I don't hear something soon, I'm tearing the displays out of the wall and selling something else! Is there anyone out there ( hopefully from Canada Instaflame) who can shed any light at all on this situation? Sincerely, Greg Hopkins, A Cozy Fireplace H.H. IL.
3. Summary of findings on improved gas safety
From: Craig Issod ([email protected])
Converations and input from users, manufacturers and installers have led me to the following "educated guesses". From this point on, I suugest that the HPA and manufacturers combine their talents to minimize the potential danger to our customers and to our industry reputation.
1. Explosions of gas have occurred in both B-Vents and Top Vents, in LP and Natural gas, but it appears the percentages are much higher among direct vents and LP gas.
2. Many of the explosions occurred on stoves with properly functioning pilots, so the 30 second drop-out does not solve all the problems.
3. The vent system, burner/body design and installation/operation can all contribute to the potential problems.
4. The amount of gas that can build up in a stove, even from a depressed pilot, can be enough to cause explosions of immense power, enough to send glass flying over 30 feet and to bend metal in the units...even in certain units with blow-off ports.
5. Manufacturers have been and are continuing to address this problem, by enlarging the blow-off ports, and applying other methods--However...
6. Thousands or tens of thousands of the "older" units are already in the pipeline and field and relatively little is being done to address these units.
7. Tempered glass combined with a screen, while not nearly as good for high temperatures, may be safer for customers in the event of delayed ignition..because...
8. The ceramic glass used in most units breaks into very sharp pieces,causing a potential hazard to occupants of the room. It has been stated that some of these pieces have even broke through metal screens.
OK, there's the problem..what are the solutions ? Many of them are being addressed, but here's my main point as made in conversations with Industry leaders.
Let's compare stoves to cars (and later to airplanes)...You can buy a car and drive it for 50 years without breaking the glass..in fact, the glass on a car will almost NEVER break from proper use of the vehicle. BUT, people run cars into each other and into other objects like trees, bridges, etc..and the glass does break...For this reason, all cars are equipped with safety glass that will not break into sharp pieces.
Same with stoves and fireplaces...even if our best designers produce the best appliances they can, nature and people will cause accidents to happen. I think we ccan all agree on this. SO, the question is, can we produce a unit that keeps the users relatively safe...even in the event of glass breakage. From my "laymans" standpoint, the solution would be a special glass - with high temperature ability yet able to break into small pieces when broken. This, combined with the larger blow-off ports and safety screens, might limit the potential for injury to our customers.
I've heard that the current standards allow the manufacturers glass to blow one out of 10 times, that is, they still pass if this happens...If this is true, it seems like a stange standard....What if my Mac lost all the data on it's disk once every 10 times the computer crashed (and it crashes a lot !)..What if an airplane didn't take off one out of ten times. What if the pressure releif valve on a boiler or hot water heater failed 1 in 10 times...You get the point...I would think that the stove should be able to be blown ANY amount of times without the glass blowing --if the glass blowing can cuse potential injury.
Sorry for the long story ladies and gents...but I think a summary of the whole thread was needed before we can go onward.
end of Digest - Post messages to [email protected]
In this digest:
1.Glass safety issues explained
2.Are standards enough ?
>From John Crouch, HPA Government Affairs Director Mike Van Buren, HPA Technical Director
Here are a few comments on the recent postings about glass breakage on Hearth net.
1) A lot of people are very concerned about delayed ignition, especially on LP units, and on glass breakage in general. The underlying issue is similar to the issue on Fireplace Inserts and their Draft Hoods, i.e. is there a discrepancy between the cond itions for which the test (as defined by the standard) prepares the product, and the real conditions the product might face.
2) You are correct in your posting that IF glass was allowed to fail one out of ten times it would be unacceptable. This is NOT the case, however. Glass is not allowed to fail during the lock out test.
3) There is a difference, as John Francisty (Pacific Energy) pointed out, between the Canadian and US standard towards relief panels. As more and more US manufacturers create new units that can be sold in both countries, they are including relief panels. A dealer who is experiencing problems might want to make this a criteria for the products he/she carries.
4) The new Z21.88 standard, tentatively titled Vented Gas Fireplace Heater Standard, which is under development at this time, will pull together all the pieces of the standards that are now used to list our products.
5) The ANSI standard sub-committee for our vented hearth products meets twice a year. Then next meeting begins on October 22nd in Cleveland. Anyone, manufacturer or dealer can attend these multiday meetings. If I were a dealer I would want to be sure that my favorite manufacturers lead engineer was in attendance (I am always amazed at the companies that pass on this opportunity to be present when the "state of the art" is being discussed). The engineers on the committee have been attending and participating for many years. (some for 7 or 8 years). The next meeting is tentatively planned for Reno just prior to our trade show. These meetings DO NOT make sudden changes in the standards. Standard setting, is, and must be, a very deliberate process. These meetings are the place where tough issues do get set on the table, and where they eventually get resolved.
2. Are standards enough? (Craig Issod) [email protected]
My thanks to John and Mike for answering some of the recent questions and correcting my mistakes. I can understand that the standards process is slow and deliberate. We can all agree, however, that the gas hearth appliance market is a fairly new one, and that the standards are evolving. To put it bluntly, we could easily have units that pass the standards yet pose a public hazard. Even if we knew all the answers as to why, it might take a year or more to change the standards and fill the pipeline with improved product. This improved product could then have it's own problems...not to be discovered until many are in the field.
I was looking for specific answers as to what we might do to protect dealers and consumers in these cases.
Should the HPA start and keep a database log of all incidents - assuming they get voluntary reports from manufacturers and retailers. ? Would this help identify brands, types or installations that may result in increased occurences ?
This could be a sore subject, but we don't want a few apples to spoil the bunch.
Can the HPA function as a safety valve- to help police ourselves....or is it just to promote the industry regardless of issues like this ? The answer could be very important.
My specific question to the HPA leaders: (Multiple choice)
A. Craig is ranting and raving again. Let the standards people handle it. It'll be OK.
B. We see problems, but it is beyond the scope of the HPA to handle this.
C. We see problems in the field which may not be solved by the standards process soon enough, so we intend to take action.
I have not asked for much before from our industry trade group, but would appreciate a clear answer to this question. I can handle rejection well, so please pick "A" if you think it's the truth !
S
1. John Crouch on Gas Safety
2. Names, Please
3. One Vote for increased safety
1. John Crouch on Gas Safety
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:47:51 -0700 From: [email protected] (John David Crouch) Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/16 To: Craig Issod <[email protected]>
Dear Craig: Mike and I are both traveling this week and I need more time to fully respond to some of the issues you have raised. So this is a quick "place holder" response until later.
First; Industry is a key part of the "standards group", so we cannot, let someone else worry about it. However, "industry" is a large and broad term which encompasses many products. (Just as the term "retailer" or "chimney sweep" is often over genrelized). It is not clear to me that this problem affects all products in the field this fall. Indeed, the posting from two companys last week underscore the routine nature of pressure relief in products which are sold in Canada.
Perhaps the question is "How does a dealer know what to look for in a new product"? during this time of rapid change. I have always been of the opinion that dealers dirve this industry. If the dealers ask hard questions about a product catagory at a March trade show, then changes get made very quickly. If dealers only respond to price at a show, then that is the charge to design engineers (find a way to make it work at less cost). Dealers need to always ask themselves, what features do I see on some units and not on others? Why? Am I confident that I,and my people are knowledgeable enough about this catagory to sell and install products that address the saftey/cost issue in new and creative ways?
Second; "Ranting and Raveing" in this forum is good. As you know, many people are reading this discussion. We will never know what changes might be triggered in products due out next spring by this disscussion. We will also never know how many dealers are re-reviewing with their installers issues related to testing the appliance after it is installed. The only down side of this forum is that two dealers can describe a problem, and the industry can start to think that we have a big problem, even though these examples might be on two very different products and be caused by very differnt failures. SO, this list is an important means for discussion, but it will always be only a single piece of the information process.
(THIS WAS THE SHORT ANSWER? OY VE!) Got to catch a plane. John Crouch
(webmaster comments). Reading through the lines, I can guess that it means "buyer beware" for us hearth retailers...and even more to the customer ! This is not how I thought it was supposed to be. I assumed that any product that was offered for sale AT THE MINIMUM would not pose an unacceptable risk. I'm glad John is being honest, but don't see how retailers can be the "police" of the industry. If our orgs, specifically the HPA, AGA, and other interested parties cannot regulate themselves, history has shown that the government will be more than willing to step in after awhile.
2. Names, Please
From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:00:01 -0400
To: [email protected] Subject:
Re: No Subject
LET'S HAVE SOME NAMES......PLEASE !
VERY SCARED
(webmaster notes).. I didn't post the names cause I've heard of many such instances...It appears the big difference is how the companies are reacting to failure in the field. Also, it appears some companies are having a MUCH higher incidence than others. I'll let the companies speak for themselves. Most major companies monitor this list. Any list member is capable of posting a note to any manufacturers asking for their experience. The companies are free to give their experiences....even without being asked.
3. One Vote for increased safety.
From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 22:10:36 -0400
To: [email protected] Subject:
Re: Hearth Digest 10/16
Hi Craig & all, As a Dealer/Installer/Service person, My answer is & must remain, "C" ("C. We see problems in the field which may not be solved by the standards process soon enough, so we intend to take action."). Based on our experience & feedback from my peers, I'll do whatever I must to keep my clients as safe as humanly possible. For me, a large part of this is to sell items whose manufacturers are agressively proactive with regard to safety issues. "If it looks like a duck & it quacks like a duck..." The discourse on this & other lists is a tremendous aid in our continuing pursuit of safety. Keep up the good work & the heat. Peace, Ed
IN this digest:
1. Theory as to gas explosions
2. Why standards and studies are often slow...
1.From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:45:37 -0400
Subject: Gas Explosions
I have just read through the last 5 or 6 postings and am very concerned with the apparent problems in the field with gas explosions. The explosion tests required in the safety standards are pretty severe. In the Canadian test the DV units air intake and exhaust are sealed when the explosion is created. I doubt that the instances sited involve blocked intakes and exhausts.
I do have a theory on why units which have adequate relief mechanisms to pass the lab tests might fail in the field.
First, lets correct the great myth of the gas industry. Propane does not just lay there in low spots because it is "heavier than air". This is a piece of misinformation repeated so often that everyone believes it. The fact is that air is made up of several different gases - O2, N2 and CO2 each of which has a different density or molecular wieght. In fact CO2 has the same molecular wieght (44) as propane. So ask yourself why we are not all having a hard time breathing? The fact is all gas, at ordinary conditions, follow Dalton's law which basically says each gas in a mixture acts as if there where no other gases there. This results in something called partial pressures which means that in any container, each gas present will rapidly distribute itself to fill the container. Thus complete mixing of gases occurs quickly regardless of denisty differences. By the way, if propane did just lay there because of its density, it would be far less dangerous. This is because it would remain above the "upper flammability limit" concentration and be impossible to ignite!
OK, now for some theorizing. In the lab, we test units be introducing gas to a sealed unit until a combustible mixture is created and then ignite it. It makes a big bang, relief panels and/or intake/exhaust systems adequately revlieve the pressure created and the unit passes. Suppose, however, that in the field, there is a tiny leak of gas - either in the plumbing, or perhaps through a faulty gas valve - which allows a slow build up or gas. The unit is probably installed with 10 or 15 feet of intake/exhaust piping. When the unit is operating, there is no apparent problem - the leaking gas is simply drawn through the system and consumed with the burner gas. When the unit is off, however, gas is gradually introduced into the unit. Because the system (appliance and vents) are essentially full of air, there will be a gradual increase in the gas concentration. The gas will of course not ignite, even if the pilot is operating perfectly, until the concentration reaches the "lower flamability limit" - 2.1% for propane, 4.8% for natural gas. At this point the fact that the gas does indeed mix is important because the entire system, including the vent/intake could now be filled with the combustible mixture. The vent system might well have a substantially larger volume than the appliance and thus the explosion could be quite a bit bigger.
This problem might not be apparent and could even be intermitent. For example, if a tiny partical of foreign matter finds its way into the appliance gas valve mechanism, it might prevent the valve from closing fully on one cycle but not the next.
By the way - B-vent appliances won't have this problem because they are unsealed and there is generally a constant air flow to sweep any leaking gas out of the system. It the leak is big enough to reach flammabilty limits, is generally ignites off the pilot without a major explosion.
2. Why standards are often slow in coming.....
A hearthlist member passed along this toungue-in-cheek appraisal of regulation (or lack of such)
In the beginning God Created heaven and the earth. Quickly he
was faced with a class action suit for failure to file an
environmental impact statement. He was granted a temporary permit for
the project, but was stymied with the Cease and Desist order for the
earthly part.
Appearing at the hearing, God was asked why he began his earthly
project in the first place. He replied that he just liked to be
creative.
Then God said, "Let there be light." Officials immediately
demanded to know how the light would be made. Would there be
strip mining? What about thermal pollution? God explained that
the light would come from a huge ball of fire. God was granted
provisional permission to make light, assuming that no smoke
would result from the ball of fire, that he would obtain a
building permit, and (to conserve energy) would have the light
out half the time. God agreed and said he would call the light
"Day" and the darkness "Night." Officials replied that they were not
interested in semantics.
God said, "Let the earth bring forth green herb and such as many
seed." The EPA agreed so long as native seed was used. Then God said,
"Let waters bring forth creeping creatures having life; and the fowl
that may fly over the earth." Officials pointed out this would
require approval from the Department of Game coordinated with the
Heavenly Wildlife Federation and the Audubongelic Society.
Everything was OK until God said he wanted to complete the
project in six days. Officials informed him it would take at
least 200 days to review the application and the environmental
impact statement. After that there would be a public hearing.
Then there would be 10-12 months before...
At this point God created Hell.
The Front Page of the Wall Street Journal (My Thanks to Dan Melcon for faxing to me) indicates that firewood sales are brisk, and that wood stoves and fireplaces are gaining on gas this year. Our store (Stoveworks in New Jersey) is seeing a STRONG wood demand, with sales following through. This is the best of both worlds..strong wood and strong gas.....let's enjoy it while we can
In this Digest
1.One Man's take on dealer responsibility
From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:15:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/15/96
In a message dated 96-10-15 22:18:26 EDT, you write:
<< I'm glad John is being honest, but don't see how retailers can be the "police" of the industry. >> My take on John's note is that we each share the responsibility to the public & our industry- it just happens that the dealers' influence is quite effective at the point where the mfgs want our orders, & that we reveal where we prioritize safety by the products we choose to offer... Peace, Ed
2. Alcohol Fireplaces
Mime-Version: 1.0 Date:
Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:12:54 -0500
To: [email protected] From: [email protected] (Noel Gilmore)
Subject: LFlame gelled alcohol FP's
Anyone have a phone number for LaFlame gelled alcohol fireplaces?
Also, I would be grateful for any leads regarding other gelled alcohol companies besides Alco-Brite, American, Jensen Metal Products (Real Flame) and Sunsor, all of which I have. Looking for the best ones to carry so I'm not competing with Penney's or other catalogs.
Thanks, as always.
Also appreciating the postings on the "challenges" of gas fireplaces (we're not supposed to breathe the word "problem," are we?).
Noel Gilmore Autumn Moon Fireplaces
To: comp
From: Craig Issod <[email protected]>
Subject: Hearth Digest 10/20/96
1. Is propane falling a myth ?
2. Canadian P4 standard as a selling tool
1. Is propane falling a myth ?
From: "Robert A. Borgeson" <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:09:10 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/17/96
Reply-To: [email protected]
Priority: normal
> First, lets correct the great myth of the gas industry. Propane does not
> just lay there in low spots because it is "heavier than air". This is a
> piece of misinformation repeated so often that everyone believes it. The
> fact is that air is made up of several different gases - O2, N2 and CO2
> each of which has a different density or molecular weight. In fact CO2 has
> the same molecular weight (44) as propane. So ask yourself why we are not
> all having a hard time breathing? The fact is all gas, at ordinary
> conditions, follow Dalton's law which basically says each gas in a mixture
> acts as if there where no other gases there. This results in something
> called partial pressures which means that in any container, each gas
> present will rapidly distribute itself to fill the container. Thus
> complete mixing of gases occurs quickly regardless of density differences.
> By the way, if propane did just lay there because of its density, it would
> be far less dangerous. This is because it would remain above the "upper
> flammability limit" concentration and be impossible to ignite!
I'm sorry, but this information is potentially misleading. The analysis above lacks the element of time which is important in dissipating a fuel gas leak. The ideal gas laws only apply to a perfectly mixed mixture of gases. When a fuel gas leak occurs, it is not well mixed. It's more like a localized bubble. If the bubble is lighter than air, it will tend to rise and eventually mix with the atmosphere.
Propane is heavier than air (the mixture). It will in fact tend to sink towards the ground at first. It will eventually dissipate through diffusion or air movement, but this can be a slow process. Natural gas, which is primarily methane, is lighter and will immediately rise. In this way, natural gas leaks tend to dissipate faster than propane.
The fact that propane spills can pool in low areas for periods of time is not an old wive's tale and should be taken into account by all field personnel.
Bob Borgeson Program Manager - Residential Appliances AGA Research
2. Canandian P4 Standard
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 96 15:21:43 EDT
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: Craig Issod <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/18/96
Hi Craig, Is the P4 gas efficiency standard being used in the US at all? It is hard to get info on the results but I recently got a copy from Skip Hayden, and I must say there is quite a discrepency between mfg's literature on claimed efficiency and what P4 found! The standby (pilot and draft hood air mostly) losses vary a GREAT deal between appliances. I would like to start selling using this info, and try to bring some credibility to gas sales as EPA did for wood. Anyone else tried this? Do other dealers think this sort of info would be helpful in separating ourselves from the "pack?" Cal Wallis
Response from Craig Issod ([email protected]) ...I don't know about these standards and tests, but would love to hear more..and I'm sure others on the list would like this information. Most of us want to help our customers make the most informed decisions possible.
To: comp
From: Craig Issod <[email protected]>
Subject: Hearth Digest 10/21/96
Forward: My thanks to the lab guys for the information on LP and Gases. I'm going to post a couple of messages tonite, but for now we'll consider the subject closed. As moderator, I want to try to keep the list from going too far out on a tangent, and this topic is starting to head that way. Now I know why I fell asleep in chemistry class ! Please feel free to email any of the parties directly to continue the conversation if needed.
In this issue:
1. Properties of glass
2. Real World Propane experience
3. Another Take on Propane
4. Still more on LP
1. Properties of glass
Date: 21 Oct 96 13:01:25 EDT
(forwarded from [email protected])
Thanks for the feed back. First, fatigue is not a likely explanation for glass breakage. As a brittle material, glass has a very narrow elastic limit/yield strength range. Also, ceramic glass has such a small coefficient of thermal expansion that it is virtually impossible to induce stress or bending through differential heating. Essentially glass when stressed bends without yielding until it breaks.
Tempered glass is a different animal. Tempering induces a very high stress into the glass surfaces. It is this stress which substantially strengthens the glass. Heating to some level - around 500 F allows this stress to be at least partially relieved. If the relief process is uneven the imbalence in internal stress can cause the glass to literally explode. If the stress relief is even enough, the glass simply de-tempers and becomes basically ordinary window glass- not very suitable for use in appliances.
2. Real World Propane experience
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 19:47:01 -0700
From: Jim Butchart <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Organization: Hearth and Color Shop
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: hearthlist 10/20
> > First, lets correct the great myth of the gas industry. Propane does not
> > just lay there in low spots because it is "heavier than air". This is a
> > piece of misinformation repeated so often that everyone believes it.
[deletia]
> I'm sorry, but this information is potentially misleading.
[snip]
> Propane is heavier than air (the mixture). It will in fact tend to sink
> towards the ground at first. It will eventually dissipate through
> diffusion or air movement, but this can be a slow process. Natural gas,
> which is primarily methane, is lighter and will immediately rise. In this
> way, natural gas leaks tend to dissipate faster than propane.
>
> The fact that propane spills can pool in low areas for periods of time is
> not an old wive's tale and should be taken into account by all field
> personnel.
> Bob Borgeson Program Manager - Residential Appliances AGA Research
Thank you for that! I couldn't believe what I was reading, especially coming from an engineer. I was no chemistry major but I have a lot of real world experience outside of the ivory towers. I have seen the flame path of a "slow-to-ignite" propane gas log set. The propane was flowing DOWN and out of the fireplace. When it ignited it put on quite a show. I guarantee that that gas was not mixing equally with the atmosphere! I have also observed that lp gas units that have the pilot flame too high above the burner will be very slow to ignite with unpleasant results. Does Mr. Curkeet dispute that? --- Jim Butchart
3. Another Take on Propane
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 23:02:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/20/96
Craig -- my contribution to the Hearth Digest discussion:
In a message dated 96-10-20 19:55:54 EDT, you write:
<< The fact that propane spills can pool in low areas for periods of time is
not an old wive's tale and should be taken into account by all field
personnel.
Just to take Bob's point one step further: an undisturbed "pool" of propane will indeed be above the upper flammability limits, but such pools rarely remain undisturbed. In a direct vent stove in particular, any draft in the vent will pull in combustion air, which will enter the combustion chamber with some velocity. Depending on the design of the stove, this flow of air may directed into or along the top of the "pool" of propane, where a flammable mixture will inevitably occur. Again depending on the design of the stove, this mixture may eventually reach an ignition source. The resulting explosion will dramatically "disturb" the remaining pool of propane and cause it to quickly mix with the other air in the firebox. The main variable at this point is whether the explosion will occur as a relatively slow deflagration or a sharp detonation. Neither is good for the stove and either could build enough pressure to burst the glass, again depending on stove design or method of attachment.
The particular hazard represented by propane is that a lot more potential energy can accumulate in the pool before a flammable mixture reaches the ignition source, whereas natural gas will dissipate more quickly and reach a flammable mixture at the ignition source before as much fuel has been released. None of this means that propane is a bad fuel or unduly hazardous, but it does raise different issues in stove design and testing.
Dave Johnston
OMNI Environmental Services
4. Still more on LP
From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:03:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/20/96
Mr. Borgeson's response does little to clarify the situation. His term "eventually" with respect to the rate at which gases mix implies that this process may take hours. The rate at which mixing occurs is somewhat different depending on the specific gas. However, all true gases (and as used in the home, propane is a true gas) will expand indefinately and fill their container. In the case of the "gas bubble" described by Mr. Borgeson, the partial pressure will be high in the bubble and lower everwhere else. This partial pressure differential is no different than any other gas pressure difference - the gas flows to equalize the pressure throughout the area. No outside forces are required to obtain "perfect mixing".
One might argue that if the rate of dissapation were really that much different, a significant natural gas leak could be more dangerous than a propane leak because the resulting mixture would reach flammable concenrations more quickly. There is, to my knowlege, no evidence supporting this theory either.
Yes, propane will tend to fall in the area where a leak occurs, while natural gas will tend to rise. However, the outcome of either type of gas leak in a confined, poorly ventilated area is an ignitable mixture and, if an ignition source is present, an explosion.
The time frame involved in the gases mixing with the existing atmosphere is different only on the order of a few minutes - not hours or days as many seem to believe. In the case of small leaks were the rate of dissapation keeps up with the leakage rate of the gas, there is virtually no significance in the wieght difference of the various fuel gases. The difference could be signifcant for large leaks in very large spaces but it is unlikely to have any real effect in residential settings.
By the way the US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) studied this very issue over a period of several years. They concluded (April 1995 letter to NPGA) - "The commission staff cannot substantiate a greater risk of accedents with below-grade, compared to above-grade, installations of propane appliances."
___________________________________________________________________________
This Months Digest Sponsored by: Travis Industries, America's premier manufacturer of steel wood, gas & pellet hearth products exclusively for the Speciality Hearth Retailer. See the NEW LOPI Heritage Bay, Discovery Fireplace, Avalon Avanti DVS Fireplace and Fireplace Xtrordinair 36DV-R & 32DVS gas products in our Web site. http://hearth.com/travis. Call 1 800 654-1177 or e-mail us at [email protected] for dealer information.
___________________________________________________________________________
end of Digest - Post messages to [email protected]
From ???@??? Tue Oct 22 23:29:54 1996
To: comp
From: Craig Issod <[email protected]>
Subject: Hearth Digest 10/22/96
Cc:
Another Monday passes, and another new "attendance" record on HearthNet - over 18,000 files downloaded yesterday alone ! I'm waiting to see what happens when it really gets cold. Anyway, it looks like lots of folks are interested in Hearth Products so all of you out there in HearthLand should be smiling.
1. Falling Asleep - The cagey one !
2. Help Wanted
3. Jotul and Superior join to Market "Superior Jotuls"
4. Candles and Hearth
1. Falling Asleep - The cagey one !
From: [email protected]
X-Sender: [email protected]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:39:13 -0500
Subject: Z Z Z Z Z Z Z ZZZZZ BOOOOM!!!!!!!!
I know that ...... and I would hope the Hearth, ANSI, AGA, Fire Wright, Pomeroy by Copperfield, HPA training classes(whatever they will be called if they ever get going), and several other gas training schools and many many books provide that information...... if I need to learn it. ZZZZZZ z z ZZZ zzzz ZZZZZ @ zzzz .com !!!!!! It ain't zztop it's zz boring.
But then again somebody has got to provide some training?????? Read the book. Better yet steal the book........ publish it on the net for all to read. I'll chip in to help pay the lawyers for you..... it's a club house thing. KG one _____________________________________
Visit the Emporium
We Supply Your Hearth's Desires
http://www.weyrkeep.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------
" Dragons Breathe Best Together
Forge a Stronger Fire"
_____________________________________
2. Help Wanted
From: [email protected]
X-Sender: [email protected]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:27:50 -0500
Subject: Help Wanted
We are a Hearth Shop located in beautiful, safe, clean, friendly, inviting Eau Claire Wisconsin.....
We are in need of an ambitious, self motivated, lead service technician as well as one assistant service technician to work on wood and gas appliance installations, chimney systems, and miscellaneous service. We are also looking for an ambitious outgoing and eager salesperson to stepup and meet the daily challenges of the Hearth and Casual industry..
Pay or salary is negotiable... depending on experience... and is definately above local skilled rates. Moving costs are a negotiable consideration. We provide health benefits, paid vacations, paid sick leave, and will offer retirement benefits or profit sharing.
Serious inquiries only. Experience expected. We provide ongoing education and require Hearth and Sweep certification to be maintained.
All inquiries will be strictly confidential. Please send resume and letter of introduction to:
Ken Fulgione
President
Energy Store
Leisure Home Center
3420 Mall Drive
Eau Claire WI 54701
kg-one@weyrkeep
3. Jotul and Superior join to Market "Superior Jotuls"
For Immediate Release
CONTACTS: Eivind Lindqvist, Jotul USA
(207) 797-5912
Spencer Moore, SFC
(615) 783-0520
JOTUL AND SUPERIOR FIREPLACE
COMPANY FORM ALLIANCE
Shared technology and product collaboration planned
FREDRIKSTAD, Norway (October 21, 1996) -- Jotul ASA and Superior Fireplace Company announced today the signing of an agreement for the joint development of hearth products. This alliance of two of the worlds most venerable and innovative companies in the hearth industry provides for shared gas technology, product collaborations and for the possibility of coordinated worldwide distribution efforts. Founded 143 years ago, Jotul ASA of Fredrikstad, Norway, a publicly-held company traded on the Oslo Stock Exchange, is the worlds oldest and largest producer of high quality cast-iron stoves and fireplaces, which are marketed worldwide. Jotul North America, a subsidiary of Jotul ASA, based in Portland, Maine, supplies wood and gas stoves to Jotul retailers in the U.S. and Canada. Superior Fireplace Company is the largest privately held fireplace company in the U.S. Maker of the largest and most innovative selection of fireplace designs for more than 64 years,Superior is based in Fullerton, Calif., with manufacturing operations in Union City, Tenn.
The first product to grow from this alliance is the Jotul Gas 3 Classic stove, which features direct-vent gas technology from Superior in a finely crafted Jotul design. The Gas 3 Classic is being marketed through Jotuls 650 dealers in North America. This alliance is enabling us, through our specialty hearth retailers, to increase our share of the gas-fired home heater market in North America, said Vinko Janjak, President of Jotul ASA. Together, the two companies also will be able to capitalize on the enormous potential offered by the European market for gas-fired stoves. Superior brings to this alliance its reputation for technological innovation and proven expertise as a leading manufacturer of high quality gas fireplaces, inserts and wood-burning products, said Mike Briggs, President of Superior Fireplace Company. Both companies are historical leaders in our distinct hearth product categories. We believe this foundation, combined with shared efforts for technology, styling and distribution, will create the worlds broadest, most innovative line-up of hearth products for the next century. For more information about Jotul products, call 1-800-797-5912 or visit the Jotul website at http://www.hearth.com/jotul. For more information about Superior products, call 1-800-854-0257.
4. Candles and Hearth ([email protected], Craig Issod) After remodeling our Medford store we brought in a full line of candles. They are JUMPING off the shelves ! I've since heard of Hearth dealers who are selling as much as $75,000 worth of these babies per year....A real nice profit center that fits right in with Hearth. I'm amazed that this avenue has not been presented to more Hearth Dealers -- Well, now it has .... go get 'em.
Craig
Oct 29 22:18:16 1996
To: comp
From: Craig Issod <[email protected]>
Subject: Hearth Digest 10/29/96
A little quiet on the list lately - means that everyone is in high gear and has better things to do than chat on the Net. Meanwhile, life goes on.... Acoording to sources, a few more gas units have went boom ! Of course, my info is secondhand, so I would appreciate ANY information from dealers and manufacturers who have had any recent experience. I would like to think tht this sort of thing is too important to cover up. Only by knowing what's happening can we educate ourselves and try to prevent these occurences.
Last year, there was a lot of discussion RE: Vent Free on this list. What's the scoop this year. One rumor says a LARGE Fireplace Manufacturer is thinking of leaving the Vent-Free bis because of claims, problems, etc. Our store is still selling Vent-Free well, but careful to educate the customers and qualify their use. They keep coming back and saying " The dang thing works so good, I decided to run it 24 hours a day and my heat NEVER turns on !"
1. ICC Pipe and Mobile Homes
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 16:53:37 UT
From: "John Wallace" <[email protected]>
To: "Craig Issod / HearthList" <[email protected]>
Subject: ICC Class "A" Pipe
To any dealers using ICC pipe. We have been using this pipe for the last two seasons, and like it. However two weeks ago we installed it in a mobile home, running the stove pipe (ICC class "A" ) from stove top through the top of the customers Mobil home, replacing a system that was installed in that manner. The customer had the department of labor and industries inspect the job. It didn't pass, the inspector wanted to see reports saying it was approved to be used in this manner. After several phone calls to the stove manufacture, we have paper work saying it is ok to use this type of pipe with our stoves, for mobile homes only if we use class "A" from the ceiling up and type "L" (double wall) for the interior pipe. We would rather use the pipe in the later manner, however there have been cases where the roof of the MH would not support the weight of the pipe. Or for other reasons we needed to install the Class "A" from the stove top thur the roof.
The operation manager from the stove manufacture has been in contact with ICC and they said their pipe was not tested to be used from the stove top thru the roof( class "A"). he basically said that they though that no dealers installed pipe that way today so they didn't test their pipe to that standard.
If need I can furnish the name of the ICC official that said that their pipe wasn't tested in that manner.
Do any other dealers install, using Class"A" from the stove top thru the roof, if the need be there? Or are we ding this wrong? Need feed back .
___________________________________________________________________________ This Months Digest Sponsored by: Travis Industries, America's premier manufacturer of steel wood, gas & pellet hearth products exclusively for the Speciality Hearth Retailer. See the NEW LOPI Heritage Bay, Discovery Fireplace, Avalon Avanti DVS Fireplace and Fireplace Xtrordinair 36DV-R & 32DVS gas products in our Web site. http://hearth.com/travis. Call 1 800 654-1177 or e-mail us at [email protected] for dealer information. ___________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Hearth Digest 10/30/96
1. About the Piping in Mobile Homes
2. Unhappy with Vent Free
3. More about piping in Mobile Homes
4. Gas Logs in Mobile Homes ?
1. About the Piping in Mobile Homes
From: [email protected]
Received: by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA01617 for [email protected]; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:36:50 -0500
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:36:50 -0500
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Subject Re: Hearth Digest 10/29/96
In a message dated 96-10-29 22:23:26 EST, you write:
<< we have paper work saying it is ok to use this type of pipe with our stoves, for mobile homes only if we use class "A" from the ceiling up and type "L" (double wall) for the interior pipe. We would rather use the pipe in the later manner, however there have been cases where the roof of the MH would not support the weight of the pipe. >> Hi John, If the roof won't support ICC Class A, it seems there's likely a problem w/ the roof- This isn't overly heavy chimney, at least in my opinion & experience. I do lots of mobile/mfg home installs & have had no problems to date. Good Luck. Peace, Ed
2. Unhappy with Vent Free
(webmaster's note: I usually don't run unsigned pieces, but in this case, the signature would not make any difference. The feelings are some that many retailers ahave concern about)
Re: vent-free products. We are getting out of the vent-free business. Several weeks ago while demonstrating a set of vent-free logs in our store, an employee was touching up some grates in the back room. Everyone in the building got severe headaches from the resulting fumes of paint being burnt and then vented into the store. This incident points to what I believe is the unlimited potential liability of these products. How can we as retailers or the manufacturers of these products control, predict, or warrant what these products are going to put in the household if we can't control what is in the air originally? What will be the impact on a customer's health if they are enjoying their vent-free fireplace while the exterminator is servicing their home? Is furniture polish, hair spray, carpet fragments, etc., etc., safe to breathe after they have been burnt? How long does it take for exposure to toxic or carconogenic materials to show up in the health of our customers and what can be done about it after it does show up?
I really wish someone could answer these questions. I would like to ride the huge wave of demand for them. Somebody convince me that we are not poisoning our customers.
Unsigned please.
3. More about piping in Mobile Homes
From: [email protected] (Joe Getgen)
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/29/96
re: ICC Class "A" Pipe in Mobile Home Installations
Aside from price and ease of installation, using type L connector pipe in mobile home installations prevents destruction of the first section of chimney (at the flue collar) from overheating.
In the old days, 'Class A, All The Way', was the only approved venting method for mobile home installations, so that's how we did them. In years since, we have noted several instances of severe buckling and even comple