Hearth Digests November

11/2/96 - - Back to List archives - Back to Club House
1. More about the mobile home chimney question
2. Unhappy with Vent Free
3. Gas Logs in Mobile Homes
4. Soot from Direct Vent Fireplaces ?
11/8/96
1. Gossip and Rumors
11/10/96
1. Vent Free
2. More on Vent-Free Issues
3. Yankee Candles Flying off the shelves
4. HPA vs. Hearth
5. Parts anyone ?
6. Great Tech Ideas and other rantings
7. Direct Vent LP Products
11/12/96
1. Glad to see they are spending some time in HearthNet !
2. HEARTH statement on continuing logjam
11/19/96
1. GoodBye Fair Industry
2. Catalytic Unvented--How Much ?
3. More Jokes for the crowd
4. making Money on the Internet.
5. HearthNet purchases Vermont Casting and Jotul in suprise power move !
11/19/96
1. Price of Majestic Vent Free Cat
2. Gas Installation Companies
3. EPA 2.5 Gram Limit
11/26/96
1. Unhappy with Majestic
2. From John Crouch, Clarify HPA PR Efforts
11/27/96
1. Vent Free Headaches
2. Thoughts for this time of year
3. Where is ODC?
4. Grams... I mean MICRONS!
5. Doesn't like the post
6. South has record season !

Webmasters Note: I'm in seventh heaven today ! Just fired up my newest PowerMac and I am more than impressed ! This particular model has incredible Video and Audio capability, so now it'll be easy to add actual video clips to HearthNet. If your stove features a great secondary burn - we can now show it to the world - LIVE - and with background music for effect ! On another note, HearthNet has received another top rating at homecentral - a web site which reviews sites concerning the home. We got their highest rating - three stars - which is a higher rating than Home Depot's site (which probably cost millions) , Pella Windows and many other national sites. Here's what they said:
"A computer screen can't quite duplicate the warm glow of a fireplace, but Hearthnet's site does its best to convey the cozy, down-home feeling of a wood fire. In addition to articles on the benefits of a hearth at home, they've also got product information and dealer listings."
1. More about the mobile home chimney question
2. Unhappy with Vent Free
3. Gas Logs in Mobile Homes
4. Soot from Direct Vent Fireplaces ?
1. More about the mobile home chimney question (multiple postings)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:23:06 -0500 To: [email protected] From: [email protected] (Bill Kline) Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/29/96
John Wallace asked:
>Do any other dealers install, using Class"A" from the stove top thru the >roof, if the need be there? Or are we ding this wrong? Need feed back .
John,
The major problem with this type of installation, Class A from stove top, is that the inner pipe is too well insulated to be installed that close to the high temperatures of the stove. The stainless liner gets cherry red frequently, and becomes brittle, crumbling from a flat wire chimney brush passing through it. I have seen this happen several times on this type of installation. Kinda scary.
I have installed Security pipe in the ceiling of several mobile homes, without overly stressing the roof system.. It is quite a bit heavier than ICC chimney, so if you don't have to cut a truss, you shouldn't have any problems with the roof not supporting the chimney.
The double wall connector pipe from the stove to the chimney is a much better way to go. The air movement between the pipes dissipates the heat, so that the stainless pipe doesn't get brittle as quickly. A single telescopic section can go the whole way, greatly simplifying both the installation and the maintenance.
Hope this is helpful.
Bill Kline Chim Cheree Chimney Sweep Greer, SC CSIA Cert #257
From: "John Wallace" Message-Id: To: "Craig Issod" Subject: RE: Hearth Digest 10/30/96
Thanks for the input on class A chimney, the only reason we used the class A to the top of the stove was because the customer had a hot mopped roof and the system that was pulled out went down to the top of her stove. I have only used this type of install 2-3 times in the last 4 or 5 years. I was surprised when the inspector said that this type wasn't approved this way. the other brands that I have used in the past were approved. The ICC chimney shouldn't be bothered by excessive heat at the flue collar because of the way it is manufactured. This is another day that I have learned something new. Hope this learning process never stops. Thanks again for the information about the heat build up affecting chimneys at the flue collar.
About the Piping in Mobile Homes From: [email protected] Received: by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA01617 for [email protected]; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:36:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:36:50 -0500 Message-Id: <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/29/96
In a message dated 96-10-29 22:23:26 EST, you write:
<< we have paper work saying it is ok to use this type of pipe with our stoves, for mobile homes only if we use class "A" from the ceiling up and type "L" (double wall) for the interior pipe. We would rather use the pipe in the later manner, however there have been cases where the roof of the MH would not support the weight of the pipe. >> Hi John, If the roof won't support ICC Class A, it seems there's likely a problem w/ the roof- This isn't overly heavy chimney, at least in my opinion & experience. I do lots of mobile/mfg home installs & have had no problems to date. Good Luck. Peace, Ed
More about piping in Mobile Homes
From: [email protected] (Joe Getgen) To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/29/96

re: ICC Class "A" Pipe in Mobile Home Installations
Aside from price and ease of installation, using type L connector pipe in mobile home installations prevents destruction of the first section of chimney (at the flue collar) from overheating.
In the old days, 'Class A, All The Way', was the only approved venting method for mobile home installations, so that's how we did them. In years since, we have noted several instances of severe buckling and even complete burnout of the chimney section that attaches to the flue collar of the stove in these installations, due to the trapped heat created by the chimney insulation. This phenomenon is especially noticeable among the "low emissions" stoves of the day, whose secondary burn chambers produced much higher temperatures directly under the flue collar. Presumably, today's EPA approved stoves with their even hotter secondary burn chambers would create even more trapped heat inside the chimney (we always use type L now, so have no real-life experience with insulated chimney attached directly to EPA approved stoves).
Type L connector allows the excess heat to dissipate: we haven't ever had to replace a heat-damaged section of L vent connector.
Tom Oyen [email protected] http://www.nas.com/~chimneysweep
To: Craig Issod From: Wayne Rourke Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/29/96
> ICC Pipe and Mobile Homes > >Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 16:53:37 UT >From: "John Wallace" >To: "Craig Issod / HearthList" >Subject: ICC Class "A" Pipe > >To any dealers using ICC pipe. We have been using this pipe for the last >two seasons, and like it. However two weeks ago we installed it in a mobile >home, running the stove pipe (ICC class "A" ) from stove top through the >top of the customers Mobil home, replacing a system that was installed in >that manner. The customer had the department of labor and industries >inspect the job. It didn't pass, the inspector wanted to see reports saying >it was approved to be used in this manner. After several phone calls to the >stove manufacture, we have paper work saying it is ok to use this type of >pipe with our stoves, for mobile homes only if we use class "A" from the >ceiling up and type "L" (double wall) for the interior pipe. We would >rather use the pipe in the later manner, however there have been cases >where the roof of the MH would not support the weight of the pipe. Or for >other reasons we needed to install the Class "A" from the stove top thur >the roof. > >The operation manager from the stove manufacture has been in contact with >ICC and they said their pipe was not tested to be used from the stove top >thru the roof( class "A"). he basically said that they though that no >dealers installed pipe that way today so they didn't test their pipe to >that standard. > >If need I can furnish the name of the ICC official that said that their >pipe wasn't tested in that manner. > >Do any other dealers install, using Class"A" from the stove top thru the >roof, if the need be there? Or are we ding this wrong? Need feed back .
> I have been selling ICC Excel chimney since it came out 4 years ago and is an excellent product. No manufacturer of insulated chimney including ICC suggest you install the insulated chimney right down for the following reasons. 1) it wasn't tested that way, If you did test it that way in mobile home installations manufacturers have found that CO2 will leak between the stove collar and the insulated chimney pipe and the insulated also drives up the flue temperatures of the stove making it difficult to pass the test. If the stove over fires on insulated then if the stove is installed with the clearances read on the stove it maybe unsafe. Sincerely,
Wayne Rourke President Northwest Stoves
______________________________________________ 2. Unhappy with Vent Free
From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:22:11 -0500 Message-Id: <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/30/96
In a message dated 96-10-30 21:26:40 EST, you write:
<< Unhappy with Vent Free (webmaster's note: I usually don't run unsigned pieces, but in this case, the signature would not make any difference. The feelings are some that many retailers ahave concern about) Re: vent-free products. We are getting out of the vent-free business. Several weeks ago while demonstrating a set of vent-free logs in our store, an employee was touching up some grates in the back room. Everyone in the building got severe headaches from the resulting fumes of paint being burnt and then vented into the store. This incident points to what I believe is the unlimited potential liability of these products. How can we as retailers or the manufacturers of these products control, predict, or warrant what these products are going to put in the household if we can't control what is in the air originally? What will be the impact on a customer's health if they are enjoying their vent-free fireplace while the exterminator is servicing their home? Is furniture polish, hair spray, carpet fragments, etc., etc., safe to breathe after they have been burnt? How long does it take for exposure to toxic or carconogenic materials to show up in the health of our customers and what can be done about it after it does show up? I really wish someone could answer these questions. I would like to ride the huge wave of demand for them. Somebody convince me that we are not poisoning our customers. >> and ourselves!!!! We work right along side our employees who are in the showroom up to 8 hours a day or better, 5 to 7 days a week? I'm still not convinced we aren't doing us and our customers harm. Unforunately we may just have to visit a pulminary specialist to get a second opinion. If we're lucky!
3. Gas Logs in Mobile Homes
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 10:06:58 -0500 (EST) Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU From: Mike Carr Subject: Gas Logs in Mobile Homes X-Sender: [email protected] To: [email protected] Mime-Version: 1.0
In response to Jim Lochary's question (10/30/96) about gas logs in a mobile home that already has a small wood burning fireplace...
If the homeowner is willing to keep the damper open then the only obstacles are the size of the firebox (since the firebox itself has already been approved for use in the mobile home) and whether or not she can find a gas log set small enough.
If the homeowner wants vent-free gas logs, then she needs to follow the manufacturer's directions with respect to the amount of "unconfined space" per BTU (usually around 50 sq ft/1000 BTU) while also looking for a log set small enough for her firebox.
Mike Carr The Gas Fireplace Service Company 2912 OrchardGate Dr. Cincinnati, OH 45239 (513) 741-1720
4. Soot from Direct Vent Fireplaces ?
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 10:08:04 -0500 (EST) Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU From: Mike Carr Subject: The Soot Mysteries X-Sender: [email protected] To: [email protected] Mime-Version: 1.0
Has anyone come across homes with direct-vent Gas Fireplaces that have an inordinate amount of soot on the walls, carpets, and mantel?
I ran into one customer a few years back that unsuccessfully sued the manufacturer of a vented gas fireplace and the distributor when they incurred thousands of dollars of expense in cleaning soot off of carpet, walls, etc. that they INSISTED was caused by the gas fireplace. Well, as those of you familiar with vented gas fireplaces know, a direct-vent gas fireplace has a sealed combustion chamber so the soot could not have come from the logs, incomplete burn, etc. We did, however, discover a couple of kerosene heaters in the basement of the house (that the homeowners swore they never used!)
Recently, I had deja-vu all over again, when I serviced a vented gas fireplace and there was soot all over the walls and baseboards. This home had 13 candles in the room where the gas fireplace was and some candles in other rooms of the house...
With the use of alternate heating sources and the recent note about candle sales taking off in retail hearth shops, I thought we might end up seeing more and more of this (if the soot is caused by the heaters and candles.)
The Soot Mystery continues...
Mike Carr The Gas Fireplace Service Company 2912 Orchard Gate Dr Cincinnati, OH 45239 (513) 741-1720
__________ end of Digest - Send Posts to [email protected]

This month's Hearth Digest is sponsored by Woodman Associates, specializing in hard-to-find parts for stoves of all types and ages. Check out our product line including glass, catalytic converters, mica, cast parts and much more at http://hearth.com/woodman - Call us at 1-800-522-8216 to request your FREE dealer catalog _______________________________________________________________________________ 1. Vent Free
2. More on Vent-Free Issues
3. Yankee Candles Flying off the shelves
4. HPA vs. Hearth
5. Parts anyone ?
6. Great Tech Ideas and other rantings
7. Direct Vent LP Products
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:44:33 -0500 To: Craig Issod From: [email protected] (Bill Kline) Subject: Re: Hearth Digest Nov 2,1996
Last year Jay Hensley publisned an article in SNEWS Magazine summarizing Dave Pomeroy's siminar on why unvented gas appliances are safe. I think he missed the whole point, so I wrote a letter to the editor. I don't have her article electronic, or her permission to post it, although I have her permission to copy it. I copy her article on one side, my letter on the other side of a sheet of paper, and hand out to my customers if I even suspect they are considering gas. Here is a copy of my letter to the editor, with my permission for anyone who wishes to reprint it:
May 13, 1995
Dear Jay,
I have just finished reading your article about Dave Pomeroy's discussion of unvented gas appliances at Sweeping Hawaii '95. I agree with most of what he had to say. But I refuse to believe that they have no safety problems. His discussions of safety consider Carbon Monoxide as the only hazard. I do not consider CO to be the hazard. I believe Dave has completely missed the point of my distrust of unvented appliances.
Over the last few years at NCSG, NCAPCS, SCCSG, and other conventions and seminars we have heard of serious Indoor Air Pollution problems threatening the health and safety of the American Public. I even keep a couple of Back-Page Freebees on the subject on my truck, and occasionally pass them out. In "Indoor pollution at your house?" you stated that "Scientists are now convinced that over half of all illnesses in the home and thousands of deaths each year can be attributed to contaminated air in our indoor living environments." In "Houses that make people sick..." you headlined it "The polluted air we breathe in our own homes can be more hazardous to us than that of the outdoor environment we've been trying so hard to clean up."
At one convention not too long ago, a representative of Z-Flex, I think, told us of Category I gas furnace byproducts eating up 304 stainless liners in 3 years as a result of being located in proximity to common, everyday household chemical usage.
Dave completely missed this even when he hit near it. What do we smell when we burn paint fumes in our gas logs? When the formaldehyde from our carpets mixes with the combustion air and is transformed in the gas fire, pray tell, what is it transformed into? What other chemical compounds are these dragons belching into our living rooms? What is the long-range effect on our lungs, circulatory systems, cell health, of prolonged breathing of these compounds over the next twenty or thirty years? If some of them can eat up 304 stainless liners in 3 years, I don't want them in MY lungs!!
If you looked at the makeup of the polluted air in my house, and compared it to the polluted air in your house, you would undoubtably find two very distinct sub-species of air. So if you had your air analyzed to prove that it was safe to burn gas with your air and breathe the resultant who-knows-what, that would not guarantee that my air would produce the same stuff. In fact, your air would be different next week, and would produce some other aromatic hydrocarbon (seems like I've heard that term kicked around at a few conventions as being something we needed special cartridges on our respirators to take care of!)
Something just doesn't smell right! On the one hand we are told that the air in our house is probably killing us slowly, and on the other we are being reassured that adding this slop to the soup is perfectly safe! I have to go now-- I think I'm going to puke!
Your friend,
Bill Kline
Bill Kline Chim Cheree Chimney Sweep Greer, SC CSIA Cert #257
2. More on Vent-Free Issues
From: [email protected] Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:08:00 -0500
To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 10/30/96
To vent free unsigned , poor air quaility in the home is the real issue. We all have too many appliances and situations in our homes today to blame vent frees. Air turns between the inside and outside air should be considered. I have seen and held lines of quality equip. that handles these problems.
LARRY HAMMONDS SHORE LINES MFG. GROUP 757-479-9558
3. Yankee Candles Flying off the shelves
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 13:23:18 -0800 To: [email protected] From: Christie Martindale
We have just set up our "Yankee Candle Display" and these things are jumping off the shelves. They just arrived last week and we already have to reorder. The same customer that is coming on to by firestarters and glass cleaner are now buying candles on their visits. It's great! Christie Martindale Bishop Woodstove
4. HPA vs. Hearth
To: [email protected] Subject: HPA vs. HEARTH Message-Id: <[email protected]> X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-4,9-10,15-16,19-24 From: [email protected] (Jonathan A Harman) Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 04:24:51 EST
Have you seen the November AER magazine? What is going on?!?! Did I miss something? Why does HPA eagerly want to set us back a few years and spend thousands of $$$$ to reinvent the wheel??? HEARTH already has what we need, don't they?
The only complaint that I have with HEARTH is that the certification is only recognized in a few places. They have had 15 years, so the argument goes. Has anyone thought that maybe it takes that long to work through government red tape? If HPA pushes HEARTH out and starts all over again, this could set us back years and thousands of $$$$$.
I don't understand why spending time and money to reinvent something that already exist makes any sense to anyone. This whole situation sounds like a senseless political maneuver on HPA's part. Why can't HPA continue to fund HEARTH and let them take care of the education and HPA can handle the marketing. What's wrong with that.
I have maintained a position that anyone involved in the hearth industry and not a member of HPA is not serious about it and should get out. I am starting to reconsider that position.
In this situation, my support goes to HEARTH.
J. A. Harman [email protected]
---webmasters note -- Jon, I personally agree with you...you don't spend over a decade building up a knowledge base and then rip it down ! There's a lot more "politics" to this than meets the eye.... Read the list of industry folks on the HEARTH board -- ALL Volunteers ! Can you imagine TURNING DOWN an offer of free work from this crew. I would say it would cost a lot more $$$ than the relatively small sums HEARTH is looking for to replace this knowledge base. Without an HPA/HEARTH agreement, many of these industry "elders" will be alienated and unlikely to be available to serve their fellow industry members... OK, HPA/HEARTH - remember "United We Stand, Divided We Fall" An Industry turned against itself may not survive ----- Craig
5. Parts anyone ?
To: [email protected] Subject: Fabco Parts Message-Id: <[email protected]> X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4-18 From: [email protected] (Jonathan A Harman) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 04:10:29 EST
Anyone out there have a # B181 - OCA (or OAC) plenum for Briarwood 2 or XE Leg Stoves.
This part is BADLY needed !!! If you have this part PLEASE, PLEASE contact:
Sue Grove Hearth & Home 10485 Magnolia Ave. Riverside, CA 92505
(909) 687-6433
You can also email me with any info.
Thanks for any help.
J. A. Harman [email protected]
6. Great Tech Ideas and other rantings
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 06:44:29 -0600 To: [email protected] Subject: great tech ideas live long and prosper.
I found the technical information contained in the "Gas Technical Service Deptartment" from the last Hearth Digest, Nov 8, 1996 ........... concerning the skillfull adaptive use of a shaved fulrum, to be more enlightening than any useful technical information coming out of the leadership of the HPA or HEARTH over the Internet..... or anywhere right now. Maybe once the HPA/HEARTH spat is over we can progress as a grown up association ...... and have an inside Tech training Dept that works for the membership. ............................................................................ ....................................................... . Craig, The should be a regular part of HearthNet. I think it would be a good idea. Now...... all we need is a few of the experienced participants in hearthnet to contribute short briefs and other high tech field modified service memoriabilia from their most recent encounters with the clean burning fuel... Dinopower forever, kg-one ............................................................................ .......................................................
By the way for all of you true blue concerned woodstove good guys....... the ozone will outlast the remains of the dinosaur.... so do not worry ..... you may be selling a part of the problem now with your gas gas gas stuff ..... but ......we will be gone and so will the remains of the dead dino who created the gasey mess we are burning as fuel.... before the ozone blows its hole......... I think. IF not ... shortly after.
Don't pass gas, but try to remember why you started what you are doing... it is still a valid idea.
Go for the green, kg-one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A woman accompanied her husband to the doctor's office. After the checkup, the doctor took the wife aside and told her, "If you don't do the following, your husband will lose his will to live and surely die."
1. Each morning, fix him a healthy breakfast and send him off to work in a good mood. 2. At lunch time, make him a warm, nutritious meal and put him in a good frame of mind before he goes back to work. 3. For dinner, fix especially nice meals selected from his favorite foods and don't burden him with household chores or problems. 4. Make love with him several times a week and satisfy his every sexual whim.
On the way home, the husband asked his wife what the doctor had told her. She replied, "You're going to die."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _____________________________________ Visit the Emporium We Supply Your Hearth's Desires http://www.weyrkeep.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- " Dragons Breathe Best Together Forge a Stronger Fire" _____________________________________ 7. Direct Vent LP Products
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 21:01:42 -0800 To: [email protected] From: "Andrew J. Silven" Subject: Direct Vent (LP) Products
Hello Craig,
I had just heard on the news that a parent and his child were saved by smoke detector, the house in flames, thank god that the detector was working and the home owner was smart enough to install one.
What concerns me is the news anchor reported that the home fire was caused by a "Exploding Fireplace" ...thats it! end of story.
I may be wrong and I hope I am but this sounds like the DVLP Virus,
This happened in Gresham, and it's happened in other locations to other Hearth Product dealers and it,s going to get worse before it gets better, education/operation/safety is stressed to every customer that purchases a Direct Vent LP Product from us, and a follow up call to the customer is a must. But what about the Manufacture, what training if any do these designers of the products have. We worry about Vent Free Products and voice the negative issues about those, what about the LP thats floating around the bottom of a (DV) Fireplace or Stove thats waiting to ignite.
I contacted the State and have just recieved the info for testing Installers / Techs. / Administration this test is a must and I hope all dealers just do it.
Education-Education-Education we just can't get enough.
Craig, what do you see out there happening with the Manufacture regarding this danger and what do other dealers say ?
Thank You
Oregon Stoves & Spas Albany, Oregon Andrew J. Silven
>>>>>>Craig, what do you see out there happening with the Manufacture regarding this danger and what do other dealers say ?<<<
Different Makers are responding in different ways..some are being very forward about their problems, while others are attempting to sweep them under the rug and fix them while they (think) no one is looking. I still think there is a PR nightmare ready to happen with this one....and have been very vocal about this. I think nothing less than full disclosure should be the rule..that is, if a manufacturer has specific safety problems that can be traced to the design of a unit, the dealers, customers and trade association should be notified, and the units fixed or replaced. This is standard practice with such giants as Honeywell and other HVAC industries. As a retailer, I'm somewhat at the mercy of my suppliers, since they can choose to either enlighten me, or keep me in the dark.
Craig Issod ([email protected])
end of Hearth Digest Please send posts to [email protected]

1. Spending time in HearthNet from: [email protected]
Yes, we know that folks spend a good bit of time browsing the deeper levels of HearthNet, but even I was shocked by today's email that said
>Craig, > >Really enjoyed the couple of hours I've spent looking through the info >and dealer pages put together here, but I'm looking for something >I didn't find ... maybe you can help out.
Couple of Hours ! WOW ! It takes quite a bit for one to surf for that many hours and still not long for www.playboy.com ! .... (grin)
2. Hearth Statement on logjam Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:04:33 -0500 From: Ben Weathersby Reply-To: [email protected] Mime-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: HEARTH Response
Jon Harman and Craig Issod's comments about HEARTH are important and appreciated. HEARTH has been unable to convince HPA leadership in a year of negotiations that professional certification is vital:
to many individual HPA members as a visible mark of their commitment to safety and training
to the overall image of the hearth products industry as an enterprise committed to public safety and made up of recognizable professionals.
Nor have negotiations convinced them that an independent, experienced foundation like HEARTH delivers maximum value by providing the buffer between trade association goals of increased sales and public safety interests essential to widespread recognition of certification.
We continue our efforts to provide information that was unavailable to the HPA Board at its last vote in the form of a series of open letters about certification benefits, requirements of national standards for program credibility and maximum value, and HEARTH plans for self sufficiency through gaining increased official recognition.
An industry wide survey and informational brochure about certification have been distributed to determine levels of support for certification, opinions about relationships with HPA, and alternative funding sources.
We do not know, however, how to overcome the adversarial tone of this industry conflict. We can't determine if there is personal conflict, or whether there is simply a lack of understanding of certification issues and/or a bias against professional standards that might be seen as tending to narrow the market. Our sense from public statements by HPA staff is that there is, at the least, a basic misunderstanding that certification is only or even primarily for installers. There also seems to be an either/or fallacy: the industry is asked to choose between training and certification as if certification were not itself a training process (in fact, the only objectively verifiable training in the industry). These comments are not offered as criticism, but as an observation about the future of professional certification if it is passed from HEARTH to trade association staff or to an independent agency unfamiliar with the industry. The learning curve can be expected to be slow, frustrating, and expensive. That potential coupled with a general lack of enthusiasm for certification on the HPA Board makes it unlikely in our view that a bona fide replacement program will be undertaken, and certainly not one that will be able to gain (or regain) official recognition. An expensive wheel that has served well and is poised to realize even greater potential will not be reinvented; it will be abandoned.
While HEARTH currently continues all programs and will offer exams and exam preparation seminars at Reno, it has limited reserves and no replacement yet for its major source of revenues, the terminated contract with HPA to produce the Expo educational program. In seeking financial investment from HPA leadership and other sources, HEARTH's volunteer Board has nothing to gain but more hard work dedicated to the betterment of the industry. This Board stands ready to implement an aggressive plan to achieve self sufficiency by improving current programs and by gaining official recognition if funding can be secured. Concerned members of the industry should not sit on the sidelines any longer if they want to make sure that they work in an industry that offers objective, meaningful professional credentials. If HEARTH is viewed as an antagonistic outsider, and if HPA Directors do not hear from rank and file HPA members, HPA leadership can be expected to continue to listen to the voices who either don't understand HEARTH certification or want it to wither and die. Make your views and support known now to HPA and HEARTH Directors.
end of digest...send posts to [email protected]

1. GoodBye Fair Industry From: [email protected]
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 02:51:11 -0500 Message-Id: <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Hearth Digest Nov 14.1996
Hi All! Can't say how much I've enjoying this fresh cross section of the industry. Just wanted to take this occasion to bid farewell to so many of you. I have taken a two month sabbatical and have had time to determine which direction my life should take. It has always been my dream to be a published author of fiction and now seems to be the time. I will be working towards my MA in Fine Arts- Creative Writing- with the first internet-extension course on the west coast through Antioch University. Although I've always been working towards this, the sadness I feel at leaving the industry is profound. It has been my very identity for the last 13 years, and it seems almost like a family to me. I will always be amazed and proud at the spirited response of this tiny industry to government regulation. I also feel honored to have seen the advent of gas -- an effortless celebration of flame. Both new technologies have taught me a great deal about the strength of vision and will. I'm writing this beside my Hearthstone Sterling, which has cut my electric bills in half. It's beautiful and comforting, heats my whole house and tranquilizes my cats for their requisite 18 hours of sleep per day. In this way, I know, I surely have not been wasting my time. I also want to say that I hope many of you will decide to go boutique. Leave the junk to the mass merchants. People who want to save money on something that can burn their house down or asphyxiate their families are not customers you want. Aim, and inventory, high. There will be no competition down the block, and people who want, and can afford quality, will beat a path to your door. They will also invest in add-on items - things the Home Depots of this world don't have the imagination to carry. To all of you whose lives have touched my own, please be in touch. I plan, with pleasure, to follow the never-ending, never-boring twists and turns of this so-worthy industry.
Warmly, Sondra Kelly-Green
2. Unvented Catalytics
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:13:41 -0500 To: [email protected] From: [email protected] (Noel Gilmore) Subject: Majestic's Catalytic unvented
>2. Response to above >Craig Issod - [email protected] > >Sounds great ! 100 times cleaner than the regular ones. I know Superior has >had a similar product in the marketplace for this season..wonder how they >are doing with it ? > >A few potential roadblocks to acceptance of this type product: > >1. Customer may perceive the design of these units as an admission that the >existing ventless are not very clean.
The first thing I thought of when I saw the catalytic w/ glass front was that they figured out a way to keep the consumer from monkeying with the product so that it would stay as clean burning as it was designed ...in other words, protecting the consumer from himself. (And, yes, I did mean HIMself! :-))
>2. The price is probably quite a bit higher, and price is probably the >BIGGEST reason people buy vent free.
Yes...Superior's is quite expensive, and I'd LOVE to know what the retail is going to be on Majestic's. Dan?
Noel Gilmore Autumn Moon Fireplaces
3. More Jokes....
From: "Jotul USA Inc." Subject: Re: Hearth Digest Nov 10 Status: U
Hi Craig,
I enjoyed the joke very much, and I think you should post more jokes. Please find two jokes that you may use enclosed. I don't mind if you use my name.
Sincerely,
Eivind Lindqvist
Two little kids, aged six and eight, decide it's time to learn how to swear.
So, the eight-year-old says to the six-year-old, "Okay, you say 'ass' and I'll say `hell'".
All excited about their plan, they trooped downstairs, where their mother asks them what they'd like for breakfast. "Aw, hell," says the eight-year-old, "gimme some Cheerios."
His mother backhands him off the stool, sending him bawling out of the room, and turns to the younger brother. "What'll you have?"
"I dunno," quavers the six-year-old, "but you can bet your ass it ain't gonna be Cheerios." ---------------------------------------------
A Young couple, just married, were in their honeymoon suite on their wedding night. As they undressed for bed, the husband, who was a big burly man, tossed his pants to his bride and said, "here put these on." She put them on and the waist was twice the size of her body. "I can't wear your pants," she said.
"That's Right!!" , said the husband, "and don't you forget it. I'm the man who wears the pants in this family!"
With that she flipped him her panties and said,"try these on."
He tried them on and found he could only get them on as far as his kneecap. He said, "hell, I can't get into your panties!"
She said, "that's right, and that's the way it's going to be until your attitude changes!" --------------------------------------------- Eivind Lindqvist Jotul North America
4. making Money on the Internet.
The Following is reprinted from Tidbits Macintoch News...Subscription information (for you lucky Mac users) is at the bottom of the reprint....Some good stuff here...Manufacturers would do well to read and understand....
Making Money on the Internet ---------------------------- by Dan Meriwether
How much money will my company make on the Internet?
I often hear this question from businesses. The answer, most of the time is, "in the best case scenario; you'll break even." When their color returns, I usually ask them, "How much money does a bank make from an ATM?"
For each ATM, a bank pays thousands of dollars for installation, insurance, daily maintenance, rental, network linkage, upgrades, theft-prevention, and more. A bank does not make money from ATMs, it pays to provide them.
Next question: Would you bank at a place that did not have ATMs? Probably not. ATMs are a valued, often essential, service that we have come to expect. For example, I bank at a credit union whose nearest office is 300 miles away. I haven't seen a teller in over two years.
I am not suggesting that your next modem should come with a cash dispenser. I am saying that the Web provides services that are fast becoming essential and valued. In much the same way that the availability of ATMs grew explosively in the 1980s, I expect Web sites to bloom in the near, medium, and far future.
The Web will become a necessary center for commerce in three areas:
1. Technical and sales support. Intelligent programs running on Internet servers (CGIs or other programs) can dissect customer questions for key words, assign probability scores, and group questions into defined categories. Then, batches can be forwarded to people best able to handle them, or a program may handle certain questions. At the least, an automated program can send a comforting acknowledgment to the querying users. All these functions - not to mention the savings on the tangible and intangible costs of keeping 800-number callers on hold for an hour - dramatically ease the cost of supporting products and services. Support is not a traditional area of income, but the Web may reduce (though not eliminate) the cost.
2. Nexus for product information and specifications. We've all heard contest rules or car dealership specifications mumbled incredibly quickly at the end of a radio or television commercial. The summary given there is just enough to satisfy the legal department. Now, consider magazine ads for prescription drugs. What's that, around three pages of ultra-small type? Traditional media has limits to the quantity of information that it can transmit. In contrast, on the Web, for a comparatively low cost, companies can provide detailed specifications, without imposing a vast bulk of information on other, not-as-interested users.
3. Product purchasing, update, and upgrade distribution. It has become so expensive to distribute software through traditional channels (see TidBITS-352_) that for the international corporation and the independent developer alike, the Web can be defined as a place to save a great deal of money. Software upgrades and updates cost tens of thousands to distribute through traditional mechanisms (such as mailing floppy disks). The cost of setting up and maintaining an Internet system that can serve thousands of users a day is a small fraction of the cost of mailings. This promotes more timely updates and incremental upgrades. The newest, coolest stuff gets out as it is developed, rather than being held up for a major overhaul that would justify the mailing cost.
You may ask, "This is all fine and good for software companies, but what about my business?" This is just one model of how the Web can save money. I have built subscription-based trade information centers, secure two-way database access points, internationally distributed scheduling systems, ordering systems that can assist the buyer in obtaining all the requisite parts of a multi-part purchase, and more. Other uses stretch only as far as the imagination.
The best method for attracting large numbers of people to a site - and I'll let the cat out of the bag here - is to have excellent content. This requires knowing your audience, using in-depth log analysis, and having quality people working with adequate resources.
**Who's There** -- So far, the Web audience is like none that advertisers have experienced before. Web surfers are far more technically savvy than channel surfers. They are on the Web to gain information. Never patronize them, talk down to them, or feed them unqualified assertions. Most importantly, to the best of your ability, understand what they want and give them the information they request.
**Don't Wait For the Nielsens** -- Every commercial Web site keeps a detailed log of its users, the likes of which TV advertisers would pay for in flesh. Yet hardly any sites make full use of these logs. Specific, important information can be gathered from logs, including what users are interested in, what they read, what they ignore, where they came from, and (loosely) how long they visit. Though it's not perfect, this information is an invaluable tool for planning site revisions. Most technical people concentrate on data and analysis tools that are absolutely factually substantiated, and may miss the big demographic picture by ignoring the potentially more valuable inferred information.
**Webmastery** -- All too often the budget for a Web site is a fraction of that for janitorial services. The Web is a remarkable medium capable of producing quality - and response - in nearly direct proportion to what goes into it. Many people call themselves webmasters based on a little knowledge of the basics, much like someone who wrote an article for the high school newspaper and calls himself a journalist. The difference is that the market is familiar with what it means to be a journalist. Webmastery is just that: a skill to be mastered. Qualifications and prerequisites include acute design sense, programming ability, managerial and interpersonal competence, and in-depth understanding of many technical areas. When a company gets its hands on a good webmaster, again, all too often, due to fear, past negative experiences, and lack of understanding, the company stifles the webmaster's ability by a nearly unworkable budget.
All right: so you've put up everything you had, customized your site to match what the logs tell you about your the users interests, and, boy, with what the webmaster makes you're thinking of changing careers. So why has your Web site has performed so badly? Let's look at some problems that lead to the disillusionment many early adopter companies have felt from their Web ventures:
* Unrealistic expectations: Advertisers are used to television and magazine figures. They want 150,000 people to hit the site per day, because that's how many the rating services tell them saw the 30-second TV spot last night. Advertisers don't grasp that viewers of their Web site are there because they _want_ to be there. They are not passive viewers suffering through another audio-visual assault, but inquisitive potential buyers or those who have already purchased and want more information. Each Web hit should count as at least 1,000 TV commercial viewers in terms of potential.
* The Web sites stinks: Just because the junior vice president of water cooler refilling is capable of building a Web site doesn't mean he should. Just as designers are brought in to create a TV spot, so goes the Web. It is as much a place for alluring imagery as for hard information. Often, commercial Web sites lack quality content. Television and radio ad firms often use lifestyle look- and-feel imagery; they seem to want to reproduce a TV commercial on the Web, cinematographics and all, regardless of the capabilities or interests of their audience. This is the wrong approach. Though it's true the average attention span of a Web surfer is considerably less than a minute, it's wrong to have this figure drive content. Surfers are looking for something. If they do not find it on a page, they choose the next most likely link until they do; or they give up.
If a site provides a thorough but layered information structure providing adequate quantity and quality information (quantity, meaning the site is as complete as possible, and quality, meaning the information is well-written and designed, appropriate, and meaningful), then the site _will_ be visited.
Customers already expect a business to maintain a Web site; and their expectations will only grow. Though your Web site may never earn a dime, it may help save your business. Like ATMs are to banks, it will become mandatory for a business to maintain a Web site to stay competitive.
And it's wise to assume your competitors will read this article too.
[Dan Meriwether is the author of The Macintosh Web Browser Kit, published by John Wiley & Sons, and a consultant whose clients include Canon, Wells Fargo Bank, Tsutomu Shimomura, and other national and international organizations. Dan is also BMUG's webmaster.]

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5. HearthNet purchases Vermont Casting and Jotul in suprise power move !
Publishing house, HearthNet Inc., in a surprise move, has purchased Vermont Castings and Jotul lock, stock and barrel..... " The profits from HearthNet were just too great" said Craig Issod, one of Hearthnet's principals. "We were going to be in big tax trouble if we didn't do something with the money".
The above, of course, is totally false. I do, however, offer this BS to make a point. It has come to my attention that many readers are taking this email list too seriously and are misunderstanding the nature of this communication.
This list is a discussion group dedicated to increased awareness and communication within our industry. As such, it functions as somewhat of a "party line" where we are all hearing others opinions and voices. If you were to listen in to BS sessions at our Industry Trade Shows, or to the telephone when dealers, reps and manufacturers are talking, you would hear much of the same dialog posted on this list. JUST BECAUSE IT IS POSTED HERE DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IT TRUE, ACCURATE OR RESEARCHED ! We do try to keep completely unfounded stuff off the list....but there will be rumor, gossip and other assorted deadly sins written here. So , chip in with your gossip....it's open forum..and please, don't take it as fact. If we ever decide to publish an industry newsletter founded in fact and journalism, you'll be the first to know !
And NO, I don't want to purchase a stove company (been there, done that !) _____________________________ Craig Issod ([email protected])
End of Digest...Send posts to [email protected]

This month's Hearth Digest is sponsored by Woodman Associates, specializing in hard-to-find parts for stoves of all types and ages. Check out our product line including glass, catalytic converters, mica, cast parts and much more at http://hearth.com/woodman - Call us at 1-800-522-8216 to request your FREE dealer catalog _______________________________________________________________________________ 1. Vent Free Headaches
2. Thoughts for this time of year
3. Where is ODC?
4. Grams... I mean MICRONS!
5. Doesn't like the post
6. South has record season !
1. Vent Free Headaches
To: [email protected] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Fran Marengo Subject: Vent Free Headaches
I would like to hear from other retailers who offer several burning displays of vent-free products. We have 5 different working displays of vent-free products in an open 3000 square foot showroom, and at least three of my staff members are experiencing health problems which seem to be signs of carbon monoxide poisoning, including headaches, rapid heartbeat, weakness, nausea, etc. We have had the gas deparment out with a very sensitive carbon monoxide detector, and none of the units are discharging more than 12 parts per million, even when the test instrument is held right over the units.
Of course, the doors are constanly opening, allowing fresh air in, and after running several of the units for more than 10 minutes, we often open the door to the back warehouse for additional ventilation. Also, we have many vented fireplace displays with open dampers that are constantly pulling air out of our building. We only run the displays for 5 - 10 minutes at a time, maybe 6-8 times per day. If they run much longer, it begins to affect me too. We usually don't have more than 3 running at any given time, and we try to turn some off before we turn more on. One of our employee's problems are bad enough that her doctor had advised her not to work for us.
We are in the process of designing a vented "hood" to pull out the exhaust from the vent-free gas log display. Does any one have suggestions on the right fan for this? would a restaurant exhaust fan work?
We would like to hear from anyone else experiencing similar problems with staff feeling ill as a result of vent-free displays. Manufacturers -- any ideas or suggestions?
Sincerely,
Fran Marengo Owner, Custom Fireplaces & More
2. Thoughts for this time of year
From: [email protected] X-Sender: [email protected] Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:21:25 -0600 To: [email protected]
Since I am too burned out this time of year to write anything that even I would think to be intellegent .... I'm just sending you a list of work true-isms that you can pick from for filler. Ken VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
If you can't get your work done in the first 24 hours, work nights.
A pat on the back is only a few centimeters from a kick in the butt.
Don't be irreplaceable, if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted.
It doesn't matter what you do, it only matters what you say you've done and what you're going to do.
After any salary raise, you will have less money at the end of the month than you did before.
The more crap you put up with, the more crap you are going to get.
You can go anywhere you want if you look serious and carry a clipboard.
When the bosses talk about improving productivity, they are never talking about themselves.
If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a damn fool about it.
There will always be beer cans rolling on the floor of your car when the boss asks for a ride home from the office.
Keep your boss's boss off your boss's back.
Everything can be filed under "miscellaneous."
Never delay the ending of a meeting or the beginning of a cocktail hour.
To err is human, to forgive is not our policy.
Anyone can do any amount of work provided it isn't the work he/she is supposed to be doing.
Important letters that contain no errors will develop errors in the mail.
If you are good, you will be assigned all the work. If you are really good, you will get out of it.
You are always doing something marginal when the boss drops by your desk.
People who go to conferences are the ones who shouldn't.
If it wasn't for the last minute, nothing would get done.
At work, the authority of a person is inversely proportional to the number of pens that person is carrying.
When you don't know what to do, walk fast and look worried.
Following the rules will not get the job done.
Getting the job done is no excuse for not following the rules.
When confronted by a difficult problem you can solve it more easily by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
No matter how much you do, you never do enough.
The last person that quit or was fired will be held responsible for everything that goes wrong.
Kg-one guy
By the way..... if you have gotten this far ...... my favorite true thought (which helps me thru the day this time of year).... is to remember that Mommy said there'd be days like this...... so:::::: Eat one live toad the first thing in the morning and nothing worse will happen to you the rest of the day.
3. Where is ODC?
From: [email protected] Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:56:29 -0500 To: [email protected] Subject: ODC, Inc.
I am looking for ODC, Inc. They were in Paragould Arkansas and were a company that bought and then sold out of date items such as Preway parts. We sold them some old Preway items and they have not paid. Their phone is disconnected but all of the letters we send them do not come back so they must still be there. However, no money. Is there anybody out there in Arkansas or anywhere else that knows where they are or if they changed their name, etc.?
Thanks. Craig Chapello Fireplace & Patio Center Aurora, Illinois [email protected]
4. Grams... I mean MICRONS! From: [email protected] Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:01:40 -0500 To: [email protected] Subject: Grams... I mean MICRONS!
Grams... microns... whatever. It's all smoke to me. (Sorry for the alarm guys. I really DO understand the difference! Just can't get rid of my grams and ounces roots from the 70's I guess.) Hope everyone enjoys pounds and not grams or ounces of turkey tomorrow.
Skip Stahme Sierra Timberline Grass Valley, CA
5. Does not like the post
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:18:43 -0500 From: Chris Caron To: [email protected] Subject: Hearth Digest Nov 26 -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0
Craig,
I think you made a poor editorial decision in posting Greg Hopkins post addressed to Majestic. Apparently Greg has had some bad experiences with Majestic that he should communicate to them directly about. I think it is unfair for you and Greg to malign VC or Majestic or any other manufacturer on this forum where their competitors could use these third party remarks in an unfair manner. These manufacturers are not publicly spreading rumors about specific dealers poor performance and trying to give dealers competitors or customers negative one sided stories which could damage your reputation, you should accord the manufacturers the same courtesy.
None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes and sometimes bad business decisions which ultimately come back to haunt us. Ultimately the market will weed out the bad apples, and dealers who have the purchasing power can choose not to sell products from Manufacturers who don't meet their performance expectations, just as some manufacturers have decided that some dealers are not meeting their performance expectations and are looking for other distribution sources to try to continue to grow their business.
Hearth net should be a forum for thoughtful, rational discussion of issues and ideas, and not a medium for spiteful or tit for tat exchanges. I'm not calling for censorship, I'm suggesting a high standard be set for the quality of content. If Majestic opened themselves for criticism by trying to use hearthnet as a medium to promote their products, maybe you shouldn't allow them or others to use this list for promotional purposes. Let's keep the exchanges on this list on the high road and act professionally. If that doesn't happen I think people will stop reading the list and posting information.
Post if you wish,
Chris Caron Vice President of Marketing Duraflame, Inc.
Craig Issod ([email protected]) responds : I agree with the ideas behind your post Chris, but it may not accurately reflect the nature of the Net or this list. This list functions in a way that is very similar to the conversations (telephone and otherwise) that go on in our industry on a day to day fashion. Ever stand around and hear the chatting during the HPA show?..it sounds a lot like hearthlist ! It is not up to me to agree, disagree or censor the list (unless it gets really out of hand !)... There will be some good and some bad. Majestic and other manufacturers are invited to use this forum to issue press releases which could inform and educate us (and also promote their businesses) - I welcome that. But they will also get feedback once in a while - they can then respond either publicly or privately to the party. Many manufacturers monitor this list to hear what the dealers are saying. If it gets too "rational", then the manufacturers may not have as much input to listen to. I DO agree that I'd like the list to stay on a "high" level, and hope to get input like yours (above) when and if folks think we are straying off course.
And while we're at it Chris, I take issue with that TV commercial of yours (with the romantic couple throwing their clothes off after lighting a DuraFlame !). I went out, bought a whole pack of DuraFlames, and put one in the fireplace and lit it. I then called Martha down to look at the beautiful fire. "A fire, Big Deal", she said !
How do I get results like the commercial ? (grin) - Do I have to buy a truckload ?
6. South has record season !
From: [email protected] Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:48:39 -0500 To: [email protected] Subject: Fwd: Hearth Digest Nov 26
Greetings from the chilly south...
Last year's horrendous weather and growing popularity of gas products has made this year the most incredible I've seen since I started in it in 1979. I've waited all these years to see the sales numbers we've been experiencing, and no doubt the manufacturers have been, too. Too bad none of us saw it coming and was prepared.
Thank goodness this week has brought some much needed shipments, but as of Saturday, as I explained to a customer, we were waiting on 110 sets of vent-free logs, 90 sets of our vented logs, and about 90 stoves. We can't get enough stoves, we can't get enough of any kind of pipe, we can't get enough logs, we can't find enough plumbers to run gas lines, the propane company is out of tanks and low on fuel...and it's still 24 days til winter officially begins! The only thing we can seem to get more of than we can handle is customers...and I thought I'd NEVER say that. We are giving refunds on products we can't get, too, and making lots of customers really mad at us. But I do have an idea that might help some of you in the same predicament. We made up fliers that we hand out that say "Due to an unprecedented demand for hearth products this season, we are experiencing a 7 week delay in installations. As our way of apology, we are offering generous discounts if you are able to arrange installation through an outside source. To offset this inconvenience to you, our valued customers, we will deduct $50 from any gas log set and $100 on any wood, gas or pellet stove as a CASH & CARRY DISCOUNT.
This has given us a couple of added benefits. One, this flier is posted on the front door so they know our installation schedule before they come in and talk to a salesperson. Two, we are not having any cancellations (on products we have in stock) because they know how valuable their installation date is.
(We also have a sign posted at the sales counter that reads "FAILURE TO PLAN ON YOUR PART DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN EMERGENCY ON OUR PART". We point to the sign and say in the most humble and friendly way possible "We waited here all summer for you to come in and buy this when it was on sale, but when we didn't hear from you we went ahead and scheduled out the installation dates". They usually smile and nod in understanding.
The manufacturers, no doubt, feel the same way. They had product in July for us to buy, but we didn't, and couldn't, in the numbers we would end up needing. I know we deal with some really wonderful companies who are as disappointed that they can't satisfy us as we are that we cannot satisfy our customers. If we could all be assured sales would keep up at this pace then we could all be more prepared next year. We're as much to blame as the manufacturers and the customers.
We all usually do the same thing; in our hectic lives we tend to put off things WE shouldn't until the last minute, too. It's human nature. I admit, my Christmas shopping isn't finished (or even started) yet.
So keep your collective chins up, the season will be over before we know it. And since I know you all peek in on this forum, thank you Monessen, Vt Castings, Avalon and Hearthstone for all the product you WERE able to get to us this week - lots of people will be warmer because you went the extra mile for us this week. ---------------------------
Send posts to [email protected]