Hearth Digest 5/2/96 Here - - -
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1. Your Hidden Competition
2. More thoughts on Mass Merchants and Marketing
3. New Merchants on HearthNet
Hearth Digest 5/6/96 Here
1. Classified, etc. (from Craig Issod, [email protected])
Hearth Digest 5/11/96 Here
1. Some Humor
2. HPA Web Site
3. Hearthwarming Input
Hearth Digest #2 - 5/11/96 Here
1. Draft hoods, testing, etc.
Hearth Digest 5/15/96 Here
1. More on B-Vent Problems
2. A Shortage of Good Product !
Hearth Digest 5/19/96 Here
1. More on Draft Hoods
2. Glo-King Stoves
3. More input needed
Hearth Digest 5/20 Here
1. Direct Vent Sooting
2. 60 Minutes and National Media draw attention to Ventless ?
Hearth Digest 5/21/96 Here
1. Hooray For HearthStone
2. New Site about Hearth Education
3. About "60 Minutes" Ventless and Decorative story
Hearth Digest 5/22/96 Here
1. HearthStone Statement on Dealer Relationship..
2. Confusion about Ventless
3.Changes in Direct Vent Specs..
Hearth Digest 5/23 Here
1.Comments about Gas dangers on "60 minutes"
2.Proper sizing of Ventless
3. Safety of B-Vent
4. Direct Vent Testing Answers
Hearth Digest 5/24/96 Here
1. More on Ventless, DV Etc....
2. Re: Direct Vent Explosion Relief
3.Another Manufacturer stands behind their dealers.
4. Any info on Portable Fireplaces
5. Another ? on Direct Vents
Hearth Digest 5/26/96 Here
1. Response from John Crouch about B-Vents
2. Buyers Groups...
3. More Gas DV stuff
4. Propane fired sauna heater
5. More on "burp" doors
Hearth Digest 5/28/96 Here
1.Hearth and Home Magazine expands
2.Buying Groups
3 More on B Vent Inserts, Etc.
4. Even More on DV and BV
Hearth Digest 5/30 Here
1. Start Woodburners Digest ?
2. Metal Roofs
3 RE: Fireplace
Hearth Digest 5/2/96
1. Your Hidden Competition
From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 17:03:47
To: [email protected] Subject: The Hidden Competition
Your Hidden Competition
We all know who our competitor is down the street, his products and policies,
his sales techniques and hours of operation, and we change our business
practices to be better. We know about the mass merchants; how they buy,
how they price and how they sell, and again, we change our business products
and practices to better compete.
We may think that we know who our competition isand have them covered, but
we only know the half of it. There is a bigger, stronger competitor out
there that we, as a group need to contend with.
Today's consumer has a finite amount of dollars to spend on products for
their home, and they carefully choose how they spend it. The question for
today is, do we, as an industry, get our fair share? Is our "market
share" of dollars spent on home features increasing or decreasing?
Not only has building a home become more complex and expensive, it has now,
more than ever before, become a job fraught with choices. Look through Sunset,
Home, Martha Stewert Living, Better Homes & Gardens and all the other magazines
devoted to the home. What do you see? *Competition*. The Kitchen Industry
has fabulous new products to sell and offers a dazzling array of expensive
"gotta have it" appliances; dens HAVE to be outfitted with the
latest in home computer systems; bathrooms are grander than ever, fabulous
gardens and landscaping is quite the rage, and the living room is under
assault from one of the biggest, money gobbling, emotion grabbing products
of all time: The Complete Home Entertainment & Theater System. (I dare you
to sit in on a presentation somewhere and not feel the urge to purchase!)
"Home is where the hearth is" is a message that is getting increasingly
lost in the vast consumerland advertising jungle. Is our presence felt to
the extent that our products deserve? How many dollars are our hidden competitors
really taking from our industry, dollars that should be going through our
manufacturers, distributors and retailers? Is the consumer's hearth budget
expanding or shrinking?
Mass merchants may be selling some of your products, but a larger, more
long term threat is pursuing your customer. And we, as an industry, need
to circle the wagons, focus our efforts and fight back with better advertising,
better products, and a warm image.
This, to me, is one of the major reasons that we support the HPA. They are
charged with pursuing our common good, helping to get our message out to
the consumer about products that turn a house into a home.They are creating
a hot button for the consumer.
We're simply not a large enough industry to let the HPA get bogged down
or sidetracked in conflicts over mass merchants, manufacturers dominating
the board and other issues that take our eye of our target: To increase
public awareness and desire for our products.
The purpose of this Hearthnet post is just to help keep us all on the same
page, making sure that we do not lose sight of our other competition, and
that we fight the real competitor instead of ourselves. Realize that, as
an industry we need to increase market share. And that the HPA is and should
continue to be our first line of defense in the struggle for consumer dollars.
Skip Stahmer Sierra Timberline Grass Valley, CA
2. More thoughts on Mass Merchants and Marketing
From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 10:50:01 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Digest 4/30/96
In a message dated 96-04-30 09:41:06 EDT, you write:
Kudo's to Rick Vlahos [email protected]!!!!!
What a breath of fresh air! Nice job! We are a manufacture that sells to
specialty shops and those alike, but I agree with Ricks Points.
The Hearth industry should feel honored for the fact that we have a product
that the mass merchants know enough people are interested in it that they
want to offer it. But, for all the reasons that everyone has listed before
in regards to the lack of product knowledge that the mass merchant stores
have, we know what the heck we are doing! If every customer out there was
just looking for price, Mercede's would be out of business. The example
of Mercedes may even be over doing it but, vehicles are expensive enough
now days that the manufactures have to produce a product that attracks the
customer, but it is up to the dealers to sell it. Price can be easy to sell.
I hear it on a weekly basis that if the price was (?) I could sell so many
more. Well I have a dealer in Iowa in a population base of 5,000 people.
Menards is within 1/2 hour drive, but he sells more than some distributors
in a major cities. Why? he has commitment, product knowledge and follows
up with service.
Your never going to stop mass marketers from competing with specialty marketers,
unless the market drys up, then we are all in for a world of hurt. We all
know what to do, each day we say woulda, coulda, shoulda is another day
lost.
3. New Merchants on HearthNet
I would like to announce the new web sites on HearthNet - Harman Stove,
Blaschak Coal and Longleaf Fatwood. Harman's own John Braddock has written
quite an extensive site, and we here at CHI Associates wrote the Blaschak
and Longleaf pages. I would encourage the members of this list to "shop
local" by giving our member merchants a shot at your business.
Craig Issod, [email protected] From ???@??? Thu May 02 21:57:28 1996
To: hearth3,temp From: [email protected] (Craig Issod) Subject: Hearth
Digest #2 5/2/96 Cc: Bcc: hearth,hearth2 X-Attachments: Message-Id:
1. Response to hidden competition
[email protected] said:
"Home is where the hearth is" is a message that is getting increasingly
lost in the vast consumerland advertising jungle. Is our presence felt to
the extent that our products deserve? How many dollars are our hidden competitors
really taking from our industry, dollars that should be going through our
manufacturers, distributors and retailers? Is the consumer's hearth budget
expanding or shrinking? ----------------------------
Craig Issod ([email protected]) replies:
Right on, Skip. This is one of the primary reasons I contacted HPA last
November in order to convince them of the possibilities of the Web. Finally,
a low cost medium that would allow our story to be told to millions of folks,
at a budget that would be a small percentage of the current Fireworks Campaign.
This would not be a replacement for Fireworks, but an extention of it.
But certain HPA org mambers were/are against jumping into the net. They
think "let's not be too hasty" and "It'll still be there
when we are ready" , and "We're too busy, we should be mounting
a new membership drive". Meanwhile, all our competition (spas, ec.)
have sites on the Net and are reeling in OUR dollars.
Would seem to me that a strong presence on the Net would result in more
HPA members for the following reasons:
1. Folks looking to start Hearth Businesses would see that it's a "real"
industry
2. Folks with existing hearth businesses (who are not HPA members) might
see the benefits of membership (assuming the site is a good one !). After
all, only members would be listed.
3. More exposure, more $$$, more cash flow into our industry === More and
better paying members.
Some of you may know that Jim Butchart and I produced a "mock"
site for the HPA, and demonstrated it to the communications committee in
Charlotte. Everyone seemed to like the presentation, but I have not heard
any updates on the status for awhile. Hopefully, this is not one that will
go on the back burner.
_________________________________ end of digest
Mon May 06 19:51:34 1996
1. Classified, etc. (from Craig Issod, [email protected])
Jeff, from Hearth of Gold (Ga), asked about posting "for sale or trade"
listings on this list. I have no problem with posting of this sort, but
I have come up with what MIGHT be a better way--A classifiec section on
the "Club" area of HearthNet.
Simply go to the clubhouse (http://hearth.com/news/club.html), use your
code username (hearth) and password (fire) - then you can get to the classified
ad area. Be sure to post that overstock, closeouts, and anything else that
fellow members may be interested in. I, for one, will be making a list and
posting it soon.
NOTE: This is not a Bulletin Board ( you can find Jim Butchart's BB at http://www.hearthshop.com/ncnhpa/board.html)
This is for job offers, sale, trade, giveaways, etc...
Let's see if it gets some use.
I'd like to welcome the many new members coming aboard to this list. Please
don't hesitiate to post to the list with your questions and concerns.
Send all posts to [email protected]
Still Cold here in the East...should be a good season coming up !
__________________________________________________________________
Hearth Digest 5/11/96
1. Some Humor
2. HPA Web Site
3. Hearthwarming Input
1. A little Humor
Ken Fulgione says: >Craig, >What do you do with this type of email.....
>be polite and burn band width >send him to the DuraVent URL >sick
him on to the webmaster at HearthNet >start the process by asking him
what is he saying? >AGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! };-o trash it >I think I'll
send him to HearthNet for info on "how to"
>>I need info on stovepipe, with a damper, for a one story house w/attic
>>set-up.
Craig Replies:
Simply fire up your COLD (coal) stove, turn the DAMPNER (damper), let the
smoke go up the FLUTE (flue) or CHIMLEY (chimney), and sit back and admire
your VIGILANTE (vigilant) stove.
( Please submit your own customer's misunderstandings of terms, so we can
start a dictionary)
2. HPA Site
Craig Issod, and other list members wondered what was happening with the
HPA site.
The following response was received:
From: [email protected]
Craig,
The HPA communications committee has not forgotten or given up on the HPA
web site project. We were quite impressed with your presentation at Charlotte
and in fact held another 2 hour meeting during the show to further discuss
direction of the project. A few committee members were assigned to develop
an outline of subject areas that should be addressed by an HPA site and
the first draft of that outline has been circulated to the committee for
review. As you can understand all members of the committee are volunteers
that have real jobs too, which suffered from show preparation, show atttendance,
and after show catch up. Hence progress on the project has been a little
slow after the show. Based on some recent communications it appears that
people have gotten the decks cleared and work on the project is starting
to speed up. Once the project outline is completed in the coming weeks it
will be forwarded to site designers such as yourself for feedback and development
quotations. I hope that work will begin on the site by early June.
The HPA is committed to exploring all avenues for communicating messages
about the Hearth Products industry and both the Communications committee
and the Board have acknowledged that the internet is an important and efficient
medium for communicating our message. Because we are a volunteer organization
it may often appear that we move at a snails pace, but our committment to
supporting the Hearth Products industry is sincere and in a very short time
the Web will be yet another tool HPA uses to communicate with the industry
and the general population.
Thanks for your patience and we look forward to your feedback on our web
site development project as it progresses.
Chris Caron [email protected] HPA Communications Committee Chairman
3. Hearthwarming input (Craig Issod says)
[email protected] (Sondra Kelly-Green) of Hearthwarming and Village West (Hearth
and Home) Magazine is interested in input on a customer survey and other
articles. Instead of posting these materials on this list, I will request
that any members of the list interested in reviewing the material send email
to Sondra. She will then email the articles to you. This way, Sondra can
build up her own "mini-list" of folks interested in helping.
send posts to [email protected]
Hearth Digest #2 - 5/11/96
1. Draft hoods, testing, etc.
1. Craig Issod ([email protected]) says: There was previously some discussion
on this list regarding the safety of draft hoods. I've had a few problems
lately that makes me question the standards and products even more. We have
had a few Gas Fireplace Inserts which worked fine all winter (different
makes), but are refusing to draft upward in the warmer and wetter weather.
The customers have complained about odors in the house, and even a haze.
The units have not shut off (I think they all have spill switches), and
yet they continue to vent dangerous gases into the home. One manufacturer
told us that, in the warmer weather, the units would have to be run on high
to create the proper chimney draft. Excuse my ignorance, but this does not
seem like a proper solution. One makers "high" is anothers "low",
so this argument does not hold water (or gas).
I have continuing concern about the "real world" testing of gas
standards and gas appliances. Are draft hoods safe when installed into fireplaces
--and make-up air could get scarce ? Are these inserts capable of sustaining
updraft in any conditions..are the spill devices fail-safe ?
We don't want to hear about this on the evening news. I would like to have
some input from the testing guys, R & D guys and the manufacturers on this
and other potential problems. Also, any other retailers experience...would
confirm a problem if there is one.
Seems like the public may be acting as the test lab in these cases. Sure,
the makers are coming up with two pipe systems, which may solve the problem.
But, are they rushing these to market also ? Have they logged thousands
of hours of use, in numerous different settings ?
Am I being overly paranoid here ?
Hearth Digest 5/15/96
1. More on B-Vent Problems
2. A Shortage of Good Product !
1. More on B-Vent Problems
To: [email protected] From: Energy Plus Subject: Bvent
from the refrigerator
Craig Issod and all of my constituents:
On the issue of b-vent inserts (or b-vent appliances of any type for that
matter). It is our responsibility as retailers to make sure the appropriate
appliance get into our customers house. That is one of our jobs and one
we train for and get paid for. We need to use every resource that we can
to pursue this end. The manufacturers are a resource (some are better than
others).
We started to notice these same problems 6 years ago at our store. We, after
lots of trouble shooting, explaining , and researching came to the conclusion
that b-vent appliances were way too vulnerable to house conditions (ie negative
pressure) and considering the current type of housing stock we had in our
area and the continuing improvement of that housing stock we felt that sealed
combustion (Direct Vent) appliances were the best type of appliances for
our customers in our climate. We do special order b-vent appliances for
people when they deem them "their choice", but we inform the customer
of the appliances venting vulnerability and that we can't be responsible
for house related venting problems. We have had excellent response from
some manufacturers and distributors who have seen some of the same problems
and came to the same conclusions for solving these problems. We have formed
an informal team of sorts for getting the best products to market and getting
them to operate day in day out, season in season out, as flawlessly as possible.
This is another opportunity to do some dollar voting. Because of the generally
tight house construction in the upper midwest and the continuing pressure
to improve existing housing stock (winters annual visit), the North Central
Hearth Products Association has assembled all kinds of great information
, training and equipment (digital neg. pressure meter etc). Everyone needs
to draw their own conclusions and there is all kinds of good information
for analyzing, predicting and trouble- shooting these problems -- a great
resource is Paul Stegmeir at NCHPA.
John Bergstrom Energy Plus of Duluth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
_________________________________________________________________________
2. A Shortage of Good Product !
Craig Issod ([email protected]) says: Yes, the B-Vent thing is a bit
troubling..and we haven't heard any comment from the many manufacturers
on the list...In this case, I'm afraid "no news is bad news".
Meanwhile, we're doing a complete remodeling of one of our stores this spring
.. to the tune of over $50,000 ...As part of this rework, we are installing
10 new burn units. As we called around to our major manufacturers, we found
that much of the new product we are looking for is not available. Worse
yet, they have no availability dates set on much of this equipment. We'd
love to switch over from B-vent Inserts and Fireplaces to more D-V, but
we need product to sell. Looks like we'll have to wait til after next season
to get a full line of highly saleable products that are field tested and
ready.
Looking into the Future: Seems clear that the Midwest and Canada have already
found out some things that will be discovered elsewhere soon. On one hand,
the AGA is revamping their guidelines on Ventless..based on these guidelines,
NONE of the product we are selling now is correctly sized.. Look a little
further, into the efficiency and air-flow problems, and we may see B-Vent
eventually phase out. Look even further, and vented gas logs could be regulated
by the government because of lack of efficiency....It's only a matter of
time till the DOE/EPA calculates the loss of national resources resulting
from millions of vented logs and open chimneys.
My take: Manufacturers should be spending their resources on Direct-Vent
and other sealed schemes...
Seems rather obvious, but it's just that I'm starting to see the picture.....
Any comments.
____________________ end of digest.....send posts to [email protected]
______________________________________________________
This Months Digest Sponsored by Hearth Shoppe Products ----
Saf-T-Grates - Pennsylvania Firebacks ----- --------
Steam'N'Fits 1/2 Kettles----------------
__________1-800-962-9276________________________
.
Hearth Digest 5/19/96
1. More on Draft Hoods
2. Glo-King Stoves
3. More input needed
1. More on Draft Hoods From: Jim Butchart Organization:
The Fireplace People @ Hearth & Color
Subject: unsafe at any speed
It's great to see so much discussion of the drafting problems that can arise
with b-vent units utilizing draft hoods. In a perfect world they may work
fine. In an imperfect world, the open draft hood can becomes the make-up
air source to replace the air pulled out of the house by the kitchen vent,
the bathroom vents, the clothes dryer, the open fireplace, and the leaky
duct system for the furnace. When that phenomena happens, and the gas appliance
is in operation, you are going to have flue gas spillage. If the spill switch
opens, what is it that we fix? Are you going to bend the spill switch into
a different position? I have had that suggested to me on one occasion. Are
you going to put in a higher rated switch? Nothing you do to that switch
is going to solve the problem of a negative-air pressure problem in the
house. A DV system is the only sure fire (ok, a pun) way to ensure that
this nagging problem never happens.
I was very happy to see that my major vendor, Travis, came out with a whole
load of new dv units that they introduced at the Charlotte show. DVs will
be our major thrust this year and we will sell the idea of their safety
and efficiency to our customers.
Now for the waves ~~~~~~ Notice the new gas boxes shown at the show by some
new players in the stove biz? These are decorative appliances that use cast
gas logs, *no draft hood*, *no spill switch*, no liner if you don't want
one, real pretty trim, standing pilot using a thermopile, tested to z21.60,
40,000 btu in, maybe 45% out, front burner is buried under fill. Technically
in California (my home), standing pilots are banned in decorative appliances,
but (nudge nudge) that is only enforced in new construction because that
is where the inspectors go.... Sorry guys. I would have bought this thing
5 years ago because I didn't know any better. Here is the question that
I need answered: What is it about a Decorative Appliance certification that
allows any semblance of safety to be thrown out the window. So what shuts
these units off when they refuse to draft? NOTHING! If anything has the
potential to give our industry a black eye, these things are it. Vote with
your purchase order!
To see the thread of the current draft hood discussion go to http://www.HearthShop.com/ncnhpa/board.html
-- Jim Butchart [email protected] "Do or do not. There is no
try" - Yoda ------------------------------- 2. Glo-King Stoves From:
[email protected] Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:45:41 -0400
Do any retailers here carry the Glo King stove line? I have noticed some
of the units in the field are showing signs of rust and deterioration in
certain parts. Please email me directly if you have had any experience with
this line.
Dave McKnew [email protected] --------------------------- 3. More input
needed
Craig Issod ([email protected]) says: The list is growing ! Now close
to 150 folks are on the email list, and more are siging up on a regular
basis. Also, many folks are receiving copies of the list from others by
fax and mail, so we're very well read.
I know..I keep bugging everyone about posting to the list. We have 150 members,
but only 10 to 15 who ever make a post. At that rate, the list will cease
to exist, as we 10 or 15 folks just might as well make a seperate list of
just us - and talk to each other exclusively. The entire reason for this
list is becuase we want the valuable information that comes from a multitude
of different outlooks.
If you've been "lurking" on the side, and have something to say
or add to the discussion ...please do so. Each voice is as important as
the next.
Over 1/2 of the list is comprosed of manufacturers, reps, and others who
are not in the retail end of the business...yet we have NO regular posters
in this camp.
Folks, the list is not created and maintained as a one-way street ! Please
add to the discusions...or start new ones. I'm sure there is a lot of subject
matter that needs covered.
______________________________________________________ This Months Digest
Sponsored by Hearth Shoppe Products ---- Saf-T-Grates - Pennsylvania Firebacks
----- --------Steam'N'Fits 1/2 Kettles---------------- __________1-800-962-9276________________________
Hearth Digest 5/20
1. Direct Vent Sooting
2. 60 Minutes and National Media draw attention to Ventless ?
From: [email protected] Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:16:34 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Direct-vent Sooting
I have had a problem this past winter with a Heatilator GC300E Direct vent
fireplace. I am wondering if I happen to just get a bad unit or others have
had problems. The unit is sooting up the customers house? Vent system is
working properly, sealed to the outside, sealed around the glass, although
the glass has a white milky appearance(?) on the glass inside.
Anyone else? ---------------------
2. 60 Minutes and National Media draw attention to Ventless ?
To: [email protected] Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:50:39 -0500 Subject:
The black eye scenario Reply-to: [email protected] Priority: normal
> 1. More on Draft Hoods > From: Jim Butchart
> Subject: unsafe at any speed >What is it about a Decorative Appliance
certification that allows >any semblance of safety to be thrown out the
window. So what shuts >these units off when they refuse to draft? NOTHING!
If anything has >the potential to give our industry a black eye, these
things are it.
NEWS ITEM: May 20 *1998* The popular television program 60 Minutes aired
a segment last night titled "THE VENT FREE HEARTH TRAGEDY" which
revealed for first time the true dimensions of the fiasco over the so-called
vent free fireplaces which have no chimney, but instead release their exhaust
gases in to the living space. These inexpensive, largely do-it-yourself
type fireplaces and stoves began to proliferate in the United States about
four years ago and were heavily promoted by most segments of the fireplace
industry. Other products that are intended to be vented through the house
roof, but are inexpensive because they were tested as simply "decorative"
appliances are also implicated because of wide-spread homeowner experiences
in which these units spilled their exhaust into the house.
Notable for their early and vocal reservations about vent free appliances
were the speciality fireplace retailers--those who concentrate on hearth
products and most of whom had been in the business for many years. These
retailers had been pointing out for at least two years the obvious problems
of indoor air quality that venting fireplaces into houses creates, but they
also warned of the potential for life-threatening malfunctions that improper
installation, adjustment and operation could produce. They pointed out that
two year old studies of people (mostly women) who spend a lot of time cooking
over gas stoves showed serious health effects traced to the the gas exhaust
fumes. Now, it turns out, concerns about vent free fireplaces were well
founded, but they were ignored, as fireplace manufacturers, mass merchandisers
and even the test agencies that consumers depend on for protection from
harmful products jumped on the vent-free bandwagon
"We should have seen this coming", said one long-time industry
observer. "Remember when kerosene heaters were presented to the public
as a safe heater for chilly rooms? Fifteen years after the carbon monoxide
poisonings and serious health effects from keroscene heaters caused them
to slip silently from the market three years after they appeared, we have
witnessed the same scenario with vent-free gas. Only this time we're dumping
heating product exhausts into houses that are on average three times more
tightly sealed that they were in the early 1980s." The result has been
a rash of CO poisonings, allergic reactions, and house damage that has now
spawned three major class action lawsuits and thousands of individual claims
against fireplace manufacturers, retailers and product certification agencies.
It is expected that, when settled, these class action suits will leave the
wreckage of some of the biggest and oldest fireplace companies in America
in their wake.
The decorative appliances are also being targeted because, as one industry
wag put it "they vent their exhaust by wishful thinking on the part
of the manufacturer and certifying agency", meaning that ten year old
research evidence had clearly shown that these fireplaces would not reliably
vent their exhausts outdoors when used in real houses. Apparently they worked
when tested under ideal laboratory conditions.
"I am embarrassed for my industry" said one retailer. "Why,
when the warnings were so clear, did all these large companies jump into
this product category and put all their hard work, and some good work, in
jeopardy? Who will believe us now when we say 'this fireplace is safe and
healthy for you and your family'?"
Others are asking the same question as the hearth products industry in North
America slinks off to lick its wounds and restructure itself. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Oh, I'm just kidding, really. This could never happen. Those big companies
know just what they're doing, right? AGA and the certification agencies
wouldn't make such a huge mistake would they?
Regards, John "Solutions to problems of the hearth"
--------------------------------------------------- end of digest send posts
to [email protected]
Hearth Digest 5/21/96
1. Hooray For HearthStone
2. New Site about Hearth Education
3. About "60 Minutes" Ventless and Decorative story
1. Hooray For HearthStone (By Craig Issod, [email protected])
May 15, 1996
HearthStone has sent a letter to dealers expressing their position on exclusivity.
Some quotes from the letter: "AT HEARTHSTONE WE HAVE MADE THE UNANIMOUS
DECISION TO MEET THE GROWING DEMAND (for product) SOLELY THROUGH QUALIFIED
SPECIALTY HEARTH PRODUCTS RETAILERS." "Our strategy is to continue
to improve our operation, offering better products, exclusivity and higher
margins, making it easier and more profitable for you to sell HearthStone
stoves."
They have also stated that:
"any relationship is a two-way street" and "Here's what we
need from you: DO OUR PRODUCT JUSTICE" "We are producing a document
called "Dealer Rights and Responsibilities" which will be the
cornerstone of our relationship.."
It's only fair to ask dealers to do more for you if you put all your eggs
in their basket.
In my opinion, this is a bold stance, and I applaud HearthStone for their
decision. One member of this list expressed interest in obtaining such a
statement of policy (whatever the Policy might be) from all the major manufacturers.
HearthStone has answered the survey before it was written !
Now, words are words.....We've heard a lot of words from politicians who
are always going to lower taxes and give us more for our money. We've heard
how they will reduce the deficit and stop excess logging of Virgin forests......
But action is a whole other thing.
I await the continuing dedication and action of HearthStone as a follow-thru
to their pronouncement.
_______________________
2. New Site about Hearth Education
Stop by and visit John Gulland's Excellent site about "matters of the
hearth" at http://www.gulland.ca
________________________
3. About "60 Minutes" Ventless and Decorative story
From: [email protected] Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:56:21 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/20 "60 Minutes"
Dear John,
I believe the only thing about your "60 Minutes" story that is
wrong may be the date! _____________________________________
Send posts to [email protected]
Hearth Digest 5/22/96 Cc:
1. HearthStone Statement on Dealer Relationship..
2. Confusion about Ventless
3.Changes in Direct Vent Specs...
1. HearthStone Statement on Dealer Relationship..
From: [email protected] Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 20:42:07 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/21/96
To Hearth Digest,
I received my letter from HearthStone about their exclusive marketing through
speciality hearth retailers and it made me very happy that a company would
take this position. I know there are other manufacturers out there with
this committment and I would like to see them follow through with the same
type of written committment.
I had also just experienced some other positive actions from HearthStone.
I found out my local natural gas utility was offering Sterlings for sale.
As I was suppossed to be the only HearthStone retailer in my market I was
very concerned about this. When I found out that a plumbing wholesaler out
of Denver (about 120 miles away) was the company supplying the stoves to
the gas utility and I informed my HearthStone rep of this, HearthStone cut
off the wholesaler who was back dooring the product so that my territory
was preserved. Right now I am very pleased with the companys attitude and
you can be sure that this will be reflected on my sales floor.
Lets see some other manufacturer's support their dealers the way NHC is
doing now. _________________________________ 2. Confusion about Ventless
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:32:34 -0400 To: [email protected] From: [email protected]
(Noel Gilmore) Subject: 60 Minutes and National Media draw attention to
Ventless ?
I had to read it twice before I realized it was made up. It will be interesting
to see if the rumor mill begins to churn as a result, no?
As to the ventless issue itself, frankly I don't know WHO to believe. I
am told these units have been in use in Europe for sometime. Does anyone
know their track record there?
Noel Gilmore Autumn Moon Fireplaces Port St Lucie, FL ___________________________________
3.Changes in Direct Vent Specs...
To: [email protected] From: [email protected] (jonathan a. harman)
Subject: New direct vent laws???
I heard a rumor that by January 1997 it will be mandatory that all direct
vents must have "burping doors" (presure relief valves, explosion
ports) on them. Is there any truth to this?
So far the few DV's that I've sold have this feature. If this rumor is true
does that mean there are DVs currently being made without this safety feature?
If so, why would a manufacturer insist on making a product that has even
more potential of causing serious injury?
Jon
(Ed. Note)--I don't know anything..perhaps one of the testing guys or manufacturers
on the list would care to comment.--Craig
______________________________________________________ This Months Digest
Sponsored by Hearth Shoppe Products ---- Saf-T-Grates - Pennsylvania Firebacks
----- --------Steam'N'Fits 1/2 Kettles---------------- __________1-800-962-9276________________________
Hearth Digect 5/23
1.Comments about Gas dangers on "60 minutes"
2.Proper sizing of Ventless
3. Safety of B-Vent
4. Direct Vent Testing Answers
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:57:09 -0700 To: [email protected] From: [email protected]
(Norman Potter) Subject: Re: 60 Minutes
John Gulland's 60 Minuetes piece was brilliant. Unfortunately it's likely
to be prophetic too.
Well done!
Norm Potter
**************************************************************************
2.Proper sizing of Ventless
From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 09:03:46 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/22/96
I have been selling Ventless fireplaces for over 15 years now. I sell only
Readybuilt fireplaces that have 25,000 BTU outputs. I have never had a problem
with these and I don't expect to. I refuse to sell all the new ventless
fireplaces with thier 40,000 BTU out puts. I think this is too much to not
be vented and these are the ones that seem to be having problems. I tell
my customers the difference between the readybuilts and the others and they
seem to agree. I wonder what experiences the other people on this message
board have had.
Greg Hopkins A Cozy Fireplace Hickory Hills, IL
_________________________________
3. Safety of B-Vent From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:41:29
-0400 To: [email protected] Subject: B vent
I am as concerned as anyone about the possible venting spillage of B vent
products that we sell. While we consider this a relatively new type of product
to our industry, I know that I have lived for over 45 years with propane
and natural gas B vent water heaters that were installed in a living area.
Because I have lived with one for years without an incident certainly doesn't
mean that there aren't problems, but it does mean that there is a B vent
history for us to follow up on. Is there anyone online that has access to
the water heater industry that could get a handle on what has taken place
for them with B venting?
Skip Stahmer Sierra Timberline Grass Valley, CA ----------------------------------
Craig Issod ([email protected] answers to the above) Skip, a few problems
arise that are fairly new. One is fireplace inserts, where the draft hood
is not completely out in "free air". Also, many inserts have a
convection fan which messes with air currents in the area.....In addition,
the cold masonry chimney and box add to the confusion. Also, most B-Vent
water heaters and furnaces are not in living areas...and the newer tighter
houses compound the possible problems...So, as usual it's a numbers game..the
more units out there...the more situations that might not be right. _________________________________________
4. Direct Vent Testing Answers
X-Sender: [email protected] (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected]
From: [email protected] (Trevor Bruintjes) Subject: New DV laws (reply)
In reply to the question on the new Direct Vent Laws.
All the newer direct vent units we at RSF Energy have looked at, have had
a pressure relief system of some sort. Either a spring loaded door or blow
out panels. During testing of a DV unit you have to explode the unit a number
of times at different time intervals, to achieve a variety of fuel/air mixes.
To explode the unit you have to disable the safety devices on the valve
(thermocouple and thermopile) let gas seep into unit and ignite the gas
in the fire box. If the glass or the unit breaks you FAIL. Now if you can
pass the explosion test without the pressure relief valves you also pass
the testing (unlikely). Ask the specific manufacture where these explosion
ports are, they can be hidden, or if they use burping doors.
Trevor Bruintjes RSF Energy Ltd. Internal Sales
Craig Issod ([email protected] comments) Trevor, thanks for the scoop.
We have seen very few posts from the dozens of manufacturers on this list...Good
to see someone stepping forward and participating.
_____________________________________________________________________
Hearth Digest 5/24/96
1. More on Ventless, DV Etc....
2. Re: Direct Vent Explosion Relief
3.Another Manufacturer stands behind their dealers.
4. Any info on Portable Fireplaces
5. Another ? on Direct Vents
1. More on Ventless, DV Etc....
From: [email protected] (Daniel J B Melcon) Subject: Re: Hearth
Digest 5/22/96 To: [email protected] (Craig Issod)
Comments on the most recent hearth digest.
1. It's War of the World Part 2!! Orson Welles would be proud. Noel Gilmore
is not alone. I have received a couple of calls and faxes about John Gulland's
hypothetical 60 Minutes unvented piece. I suspect this "story"
will have long legs.
2. Regarding the question about "burp" doors on direct vent units:
The standards have not changed. I am not an expert on gas appliance testing
(we know they're lurking out there), but I do know all direct vent units
must undergo a "delayed ignition" test.
The firebox is saturated with gas to its maximum level (usually about thirty
seconds). The gas is then ignited, and the resulting "burp" (don't
you love our euphanisms?) must not affect the integrity of the unit. That
is, after the burp it must not leak, blow it's lid, or splatter glass across
the room. It must politely excuse itself and continue to operate as if nothing
happened.
For vitually all units that requires some sort of explosion relief valve.
It may be a spring loaded, gasketed bi-pass opening, it might be built into
the door latch or the door itself. My understanding is that some units pass
this phase of the test protocol by using the direct vent kit as the path
for the "rapidly igniting gases" to travel through.
Certainly no formal explosion relief valve provides a cost savings. However,
it may affect the dealer or consumers comfort level. But safety is always
an awkward topic with consumers. You hate to dwell on the potentially dangerous
nature of our products. The old "Fire is a good servant but a bad master"
rap (see dad, I did pay attention). No matter how awkward the topic (safe
sex, drinking and driving, whatever), safety does pay.
My personal recommendation is to first scare the consumer out of their wits
("Yes, gas stoves can explode"). You have their attention, then
back peddle and explain how the situation (chimney fire, back burn, burping,
whatever) will not happen if they properly install, operate and maintain
the unit. This gives them the proper appreciation of what they are buying,
and you cya.
Damn Melcontent _____________________________________________________
2. Re: Direct Vent Explosion Relief
From: [email protected] Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 12:54:07 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/22/96
Re: Direct Vent Explosion Relief The current US Standards have an explosion
test which requires filling the unit with various mixtures of gas and air
and then igniting the mixture. This produces a fairly big bang but generally
the DV intake and exhaust can provde sufficient relief to prevent damage.
The Canadian standard (IR 41) has a similar test but requires the intake
and exhaust terminals to be sealed! This forces the use of explosion relief
devices. The current "harmonization" of US and Canadian standards
will very likely addopt the Canadian procedure, but its not a sure thing
yet.
__________________________________________________________
3.Another Manufacturer stands behind their dealers.
From: [email protected] Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:02:58 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Put Country on the list
Just recieved a newsletter from Country Stoves that pertains to the recent
comments about manufacturers making a statement about their policies towards
specialty retailers.
"Over the past two decades Country has watched marketing trends come
and go. In the present marketplace it is clear that there is no substitute
for the specialty retailer's product knowledge, expertise, service capabilites
and genuine concern in matching customer needs with the right product(s).
Country Stoves knows where the future lies... with you, the specialty retailer.
Thank you for your past, present and future support of Country Stoves."
Thank you Country Stove; another company to vote for with our purchase orders.
Skip Stahmer Sierra Timberline Grass Valley, CA
_____________________________________
4. Any info on Portable Fireplaces
From: [email protected] (The Chimney Sweep, Inc.) To: [email protected]
Subject: Portable Fireplaces
A couple of years ago at the Reno show, I picked up a pamphlet and price
list for a line of portable wood-burning fireplaces. As I recall, they were
available in green, red or black in two sizes. There was a round bottom
bowl, a removable mesh cylinder, and a top with a handle so you could remove
the mesh and put the top onto the bottom bowl to contain/extinguish any
embers remaining after your fire. Just got a customer inquiry, and can't
find the brochure/pricelist or remember the manufacturer's name. Can anyone
help? Tom Oyen
________________________________
5. Another ? on Direct Vents
From: [email protected] Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 16:53:30 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/22/96
Changes in direct vent..............
I'm not aware of this, but the Heatilator Novus Series does have the "burping"
glass panel, and I think the vents on top of the firebox.
If they are going to have these changes for '97, I hope someone will tell
us, I'm currently re-modeling my showroom! They'll tell me when I'm finished
I'm sure.
Anyone? ------------------------------------------------------
Hearth Digest 5/26/96
1. Response from John Crouch about B-Vents
2. Buyers Groups...
3. More Gas DV stuff
4. Propane fired sauna heater
5. More on "burp" doors
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 16:09:15 -0700 From: [email protected] (John
David Crouch) Subject: Re: Hearth Digect 5/23
>3. Safety of B-Vent >From: [email protected]
>I am as concerned as anyone about the possible venting spillage of B
vent >products that we sell. While we consider this a relatively new
type of >product to our industry, I know that I have lived for over 45
years with >propane and natural gas B vent water heaters that were installed
in a living >area. > >Because I have lived with one for years without
an incident certainly doesn't >mean that there aren't problems, but it
does mean that there is a B vent >history for us to follow up on. Is
there anyone online that has access to the >water heater industry that
could get a handle on what has taken place for >them with B venting?
>Craig Issod ([email protected] answers to the above) >Skip, a
few problems arise that are fairly new. One is fireplace inserts, >where
the draft hood is not completely out in "free air". Also, many
>inserts have a convection fan which messes with air currents in the
>area.....In addition, the cold masonry chimney and box add to the >confusion.
>Also, most B-Vent water heaters and furnaces are not in living areas...and
>the newer tighter houses compound the possible problems...So, as usual
it's >a numbers game..the more units out there...the more situations
that might >
Dear Skip and Craig:
>From John Crouch, HPA Government Relations Director Re: B-Vent and back
drafting inserts.
A number of folk are watching this issue quite closely. As to the water
heater industry, skip, some folks in that group think that all of their
downdraft problems are related to fireplaces or gas log fireplaces that
induce negative pressure in the living space and cause the water heater
to fail to establish draft when it fires. (I assume everyone understands
that any B-Vent appliance spills for several seconds when it fires, then
it warms up it's flue and exhaust takes place.)
I'll grant that some fireplaces and some water heater interactions are taking
place, but this is not the only thing going on. I suspect that our industry
is more aware of the issue of negative pressure and/or more willing to discuss
it than the water heater industry.
As for B-vent inserts, this is a unique subset from all B-vents. As I hope
everyone realizes, our fireplace heating products utilize the ANSI Z21.11.1
Vented room heater standard for their saftey listings, except that this
standard has never contemplated a glass front, so potions of the Z21.50
Vented Decorative standard are also used. The Vented Heater standard has
also never contemplated anything resemeling what we would call a "fireplace
insert".
Some of the origninal fireplace inserts could prove their pilot with a 3"
match, and had a great deal of access from the draft hood to the room air.
Obviously, all draft hoods, must be accessable to room air, and must not
be afffected by the operation of heat exchange fans. If you have a unit
installed that's operation is so affected, perhaps you misunderstood the
installation instruction. Perhaps those instructions where incomplete. In
either case, contact your manufactures tech support dept right away.
In addition, where I a dealer today, I would be especially careful of selling
a gravity vented (what we call B-Vent) appliance into a family room situation
where right next door sat a big Kitchen Down Draft Exhaust Fan (Jenn-air,
or any other brand). I would need to explaine to the family that they must
never allow their fireplace to light while that big kitchen fan is operating.
I would be sure and point out to them that the kitchen fan is not required
by code to bring any ANY outside air, and yet some can be as large as 600
CFM! In fact, I would probably try to sell that type of household a DV insert,
of which I saw 15 to 20 models of at Charlotte.
Please pardon my length, I've been wanting to talk more about this for a
long time, I'll be at the NWHPA & OHPA meetings if any of you want to talk
about this issue then. John Crouch [email protected] __________________________________
Above--- John Crouch Said >Obviously, all draft hoods, must be accessable
to room air, and must not >be afffected by the operation of heat exchange
fans. If you have a unit >installed that's operation is so affected,
perhaps you misunderstood the >installation instruction.
Craig Issod ([email protected]) replies: John and others..My point about
the convection fans is not that they directly affect the B-Vent draft hoods,
but that ANY movement and redirection of air currents around these inserts,
which are already not fully open to make-up air, could have an effect. ____________________________________________________________
2. Buyers Groups...
From: [email protected] (MR MARTY WEISS) Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 12:48:02,
-0500
Our So. Ca. Buyers Group (about 14 dealers strong) seems to be making some
progress although it is very slow. We have been advised by Va. Metalcrafters
that they will no longer sell directly to decorators in the L.A. area but
will refer these people to the speciality stores. Design Specialities has
informed us that they are not going to offer any product to home centers,
mass merchants and the like, but are committed to the speciality store channel
of distribution. I was informed last week that Sunset will not have ANY
product available for Home Expo for this coming year and I hope for many
years to come. These manufacturers deserve a big vote of confidence from
all of us... we should show it with our puchase orders!!! Let's support
them big time!!! Our group will be contacting other manufacturers. If you
know of any other retail groups forming or that are formed for the purpose
of protecting our channel of distribution please let us know, we would love
to get some help and guidance and would gladly share info. Marty Weiss
_______________________________________________________________
3. More Gas DV stuff
From: [email protected] Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 09:16:27 -0400 To:
[email protected] Subject: gas q's
question on the gas testing (burping/explosion tests)...would they be the
same requirements for decorative vs. heater units? q #2. milky white glass
on direct vent units. have tried everything with not much success. has anybody
found a product that will take this stuff off? manufacturers not much help
on this subject...
thanx scott a. robinson nordic woodstove & fireplace old greenwich, ct
_______________________________________________
4.Propane fired sauna heater
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 10:55:28 From: [email protected] (The Chimney Sweep,
Inc.) To: [email protected] Subject: Propane fired sauna heater
Need to find a propane fired sauna heater for a friend's new house. Where?
Thanx
Joe Getgen
________________________________________________ 5. More on "burp"
doors From: [email protected] Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 08:25:10 -0400 To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: DV "Burb" Doors
I just skimmed thru a copy of ANZI Z21.44 1991 and there is nothing required
for any pressure relief door, or "explosion" testing. It was always
my understanding that was a Canadian requirement, and recomended in the
US but not required (unless the standard changed since 1991). I too heard
they would be adding the requirement to our standards as soon as they could
come to some sort of an agreement. >> ___________________________________________
Hearth Digest 5/28/96
1.Hearth and Home Magazine expands
2.Buying Groups
3 More on B Vent Inserts, Etc.
4. Even More on DV and BV
1.Hearth and Home Magazine expands (from [email protected])
The grapevine saye that Hearth and Home magazine has announced an expansion
of it's distribution - to over 3000 LP marketers. If true, I would guess
that this represents a doubling of the "true" circulation (I say
"true" since many shops get multiple copies). This is interesting
in a number of ways.
#1. Many recent editorials in H&H have appeared to have a "pro-specialty"
slant. With this news, it may be more difficult for H&H to have stong opinions.
This could "water down" coverage of crucial issues that have always
been covered well by H&H.
#2. Even though LP guys may sell some product, the Hearth business is an
afterthought for many of them...Are they really interested in reading about
the same stuff as specialty Hearth Guys? Do they want a "Hearthwarming"..Do
their customers come to them for solutions like this ?
In any case, it appears that the ball is still rolling..maybe rolling over
a cliff. I was having a discussion with one of my (good guy) reps today,
and we came to the conclusion " Sure, there is a market with LP guys
- but most of these guys will sell product from just one or two manufacturers...yet
they are being chased by all - Hey, if this gas business is so good, how
come many (if not most) manufacturers are crying the blues ?'
Well, we won't rehash these old points.....but it remains the big question
- Can our Hearth Institutions (whether magazines or manufacturers), keep
all their customers happy ? So far, the dealers I've talked to say "It
won't happen".
Hey ! Maybe someone should start a "Wood is Good" magazine (grin)..I
know..We'll call it "Woodburners Digest" :-)
Craig Issod [email protected]
2. Buying Groups
To: [email protected] (Craig Issod) From: [email protected] (wood 'n'
energy) Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/26/96
RE Buying Groups
I am the "on line" and Communications member for Dragon Marketing
Inc - a Canadian hearth specialty buying group started so long ago I forgot
when (1982 or so.....). We incorporated in 1984. We have a director, head
office, volunteer committees, employees, computers, and NO inventory (at
head office). Profit is shared by a member's percentrage of sales.
With all the talk about buying groups on the Net, Dragon sure knows a lot
of pitfalls to avoid. We would be willing to discuss how to begin the legal
stuff with genuine (already started) groups. Incorporation details that
could save tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of time will
cost.
There is a rumour that we died when Regency dumped us as their distributor
in Ontario, but that just ain't so - we just went on without them. We have
about 14 members in Ontario, Quebec and Manitoba - which makes us geographically
large - larger than Texas even - and we sure have done some sales numbers.
We will hopefully bring us up to those numbers again.
Dragon goes up and down with our businesses,and we are reinventing ourselves
again right now (as always). We have gone throught several "phases"
over the years, but the commonality is that we are all friends, trust each
other first, and share as much as we can. It is a long and hard road to
follow but I think the intangibles are worth a lot. We could consider providing
new groups with products (maybe), and vice versa. We are definately keen
on learning what you have to offer, and sharing with our compatriots.
3. More on B Vent Inserts, Etc.
Although we use direct-vent appliances whenever possible, we have had great
success overcoming backdrafting and flue gas spillage by supplying combustion
air either directly into the firebox or into the shell of the appliance.
Specifically:
Waterford Emerald B-vent: allows for direct connection of outside combustion
air thru an outside backwall or from a ventilated crawlspace using aluminum
flex and Waterford's optional outside air boot attached to the backplate.
Avalon 700 B-vent: Travis has recently introduced a Universal Outside Air
Kit (Code #99200136) that installs in the pedestal and enables connection
to outside air w/aluminum flex.
Hearthstone Sterling B-vent: No factory OA, but we've had good luck running
aluminum flex into any of the oval-shaped openings in the backplate (just
ovalize the end of the flex where it penetrates the plate).
Austroflamme Esprit: Locate a 4" air pipe into a ventilated crawlspace
anywhere under the footprint of the Esprit. Works good, and is invisible.
Avanti B-vent: Same technique as the Esprit.
Our theory as to why this works so well even with the appliances that don't
allow outside air connection directly into the firebox is that the OA tube
is the path of least resistance for makeup air in a negatively pressurized
environment. When the Jen-Aire or bathroom exhaust fan comes on, it will
pull fresh air through the relatively short OA tube, which provides much
less resistance than the same-size but much longer exhaust pipe (particularly
given that the exhaust pipe is charged with hot rising flue gases pulling
the other direction).
2: re: Scott Robinson's inquiry about cleaning the milky residue from the
inside of the glass on gas appliances. We've had good luck with Heat-Safe
Gas Stove & Fireplace Glass Cleaner. It contains fine abrasives that scrub
the residue off the glass as you apply elbow grease, kind of like polishing
the chrome on your car.
Tom Oyen
________________________________
4. Even More on DV and BV
To: [email protected] From: [email protected] Subject: negative pressure
I am not sure why all the concern with B-vent natural draft inserts. Out
of 50 pre-qualified natural draft inserts installed last season we had two
with down draft/negative pressure problems ...... so we switched them out
for direct vents and eliminated the problem. You have got to spend the time
with your customer to know if the insert will fit .... so why not spend
the time to find out if it will work. It is not a science but some basic
answers eliminate a lot of problems..... especially for those fireplaces
people want to convert to gas because they back smoke so bad when they try
to burn wood. It is amazing what the customer thinks ... or does not think.
We always pre-qualify a natural draft install and let the customer choose.
The customer knows up front that if they choose the natural draft unit and
there is a problem ..... we will fix it but they will have to pay for the
more expensive direct vent unit and some extra labor to solve the problem.
This has been successful (or lucky) for the most part. We did not want to
eliminate the natural draft insert in older existing homes like we did the
b-vent fireplace in new construction. Selling It takes a bit more work and
there is the risk that your customer only heard what they wanted to hear
.... but we have actually had a smaller percentage of b-vent insert problems
than we had direct-vent insert problems early on.
With regard to the direct-vent insert problems, most of the manufacturers
that I am aware of that had problems have changed their cap configurations
...... after extensive "non-voluntary" dealer field testing. I
along with many other dealers, I am sure, accept the "thank you"
well deserved from Heat N Glo, Heatilator/Arrow, & CFM for the field testing
we unwillingly performed on their "unprepaired-rushed-to-market-early-version"
direct vent inserts.
For the most part we are of the belief that direct-vent inserts are the
way to go but until a few more units are changed over we will pre-qualify
and tough it out.
Every home needs a Canary............. Step to one side and push the "on"
button. Remove all small children from room before lighting. Occational
burping is acceptible........especially with L.P. The screen is... ah...
because....well, we refer to it as the delayed ignition retainer. ____________________________
Visit the Emporium http://www.weyrkeep.com http://www.hearth.com/directfire
___________________________ ~\!|!/~ (Q * ) -----------ooO~(_)~Ooo-----------------
////||\\\\ Dragons Breathe Best Together Forge a Stronger Fire ===========================
______________________________________ end of Digest
Hearth Digest 5/30
1. Start Woodburners Digest ?
2. Metal Roofs
3 RE: Fireplace
1. Start Woodburners Digest ?
.From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:32:15 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/28/96
In a message dated 96-05-28 22:47:44 EDT, you write:
>Hey ! Maybe someone should start a "Wood is Good" magazine
(grin)..I >know..We'll call it "Woodburners Digest" :-)
Hey, Craig..you got my vote!
Phil The Lucky Sweeps
2. Metal Roofs
From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:15:29 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: metal roofs and neoprene boots
We're dealing with an increasing number of standing seam metal roofs. Both
the roofing companies and our installers would like to use the "high
temp" neoprene flashing that is available. When we ran this by Metalbestos
and Security they said absolutely not. It's not listed, it hasn't been tested,
it will fail, it doesn't have a high enough rating, etc. We responded, well
what do we do with your chimney product and standing seam metal roofs. Their
response was do the best you can with our listed flashings.
What we've been doing is having a big ugly lead skirt added on to their
flashing. It's expensive and time consuming to have made and it looks like
hell. One of our people made the valid point that this modified flashing
isn't tested and listed either.
I'm wondering how other chimney installers are handling this. Any problems
with the neoprene flashings that you are aware of? Any manufacturer who
makes a listed flashing designed to work on a metal roof? Any install techniques
that work well? I would appreciate any help I can get on this one.
3. RE: Fireplace Tom Oyden
Hey I think the fireplace your looking for is called a Whalen. They look
like they might work pretty good except for the smoky fire? I like the concept
but have not used one. Their # is 800-225-1483. Let me know how they work
if you try them.
Kevin A. Icker Chimney Charm [email protected] ______________________________________________________
This Months Digest Sponsored by Hearth Shoppe Products ---- Saf-T-Grates
- Pennsylvania Firebacks ----- --------Steam'N'Fits 1/2 Kettles----------------
__________1-800-962-9276________________________
Send posts to [email protected] From ???@???
Thu May 30 23:03:28 1996 To: From: [email protected] (Craig Issod) Subject:
Heart Digest 5/30/96 Cc: Bcc: temp,vacation X-Attachments: Message-Id:
In this Issue: 1. Start Woodburners Digest ? 2. Metal Roofs 3. RE: Fireplace
1. Start Woodburners Digest ?
.From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:32:15 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/28/96
In a message dated 96-05-28 22:47:44 EDT, you write:
>Hey ! Maybe someone should start a "Wood is Good" magazine
(grin)..I >know..We'll call it "Woodburners Digest" :-)
Hey, Craig..you got my vote!
Phil The Lucky Sweeps
2. Metal Roofs
From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:15:29 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: metal roofs and neoprene boots
We're dealing with an increasing number of standing seam metal roofs. Both
the roofing companies and our installers would like to use the "high
temp" neoprene flashing that is available. When we ran this by Metalbestos
and Security they said absolutely not. It's not listed, it hasn't been tested,
it will fail, it doesn't have a high enough rating, etc. We responded, well
what do we do with your chimney product and standing seam metal roofs. Their
response was do the best you can with our listed flashings.
What we've been doing is having a big ugly lead skirt added on to their
flashing. It's expensive and time consuming to have made and it looks like
hell. One of our people made the valid point that this modified flashing
isn't tested and listed either. I'm wondering how other chimney installers
are handling this. Any problems with the neoprene flashings that you are
aware of? Any manufacturer who makes a listed flashing designed to work
on a metal roof? Any install techniques that work well? I would appreciate
any help I can get on this one. 3. RE: Fireplace Tom Oyden Hey I think the
fireplace your looking for is called a Whalen. They look like they might
work pretty good except for the smoky fire? I like the concept but have
not used one. Their # is 800-225-1483. Let me know how they work if you
try them. Kevin A. Icker Chimney Charm [email protected]
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