5/4/97 - - Back to List archives - Back to
Club House
More Internet News
5/6/97
1. Help with grade school assignment2. Woodstove Studies
5/7/97
1. Central Heating - Outdoor Boilers, Etc.2. More on Central Heating3. Webmaster
is expert on this Central Heat subject (for once) !4. Blowers on Stoves
5/8/97
1. Those outdoor waterstoves....and blowers on stoves.2. Response from Test
Lab to Above3. Blowers on Stoves and ODS4. More Blowers on Stoves
5/9/97
1. Lower cost Macs2. Blowers on stoves
5/10/97
1. More on Waterstoves2. More on Blowers3. Why sell Blowers?
5/13/97
1. Waterstoves- Another opinion2. Waterstoves - regulation in Vermont ?
5/14/97
More on blowers and waterstoves below... I have a few comments on both:1.
Response from Central Boiler about Waterstoves2. More about blowers
5/18/97
1. Greetings from Sunny California
5/18/97
1. 1. Are Hearth Industry Retailers up-to-date?
5/22/97
1. More on Waterstoves2. Horizon Pellet Stove Parts
5/22/97
1 More on Blowers
5/27/97
The value of "mass" advertising...by Craig Issod, [email protected]
5/28/97
1. Yellow Pages Expense2. More on Yellow Pages3. I hear them jungle drums
again !
5/29/97
1. More on Blowers2. more on Yellow Pages Advertising3. Jungle Drums comments4.
More Jungle Drums
Short take from Craig Issid ([email protected])
Quiet on the list lately. It makes me wonder about the continued need for
such a discussion list...One retailer at the HPA show told me:
"Craig, I used to post my feelings on the Hearth list, but as soon
as I said something controversial, the (said) product manufacturer was on
the phone to me..and I'm worried about repercussions !"
Well, we all have to make a living...and I would love to see more posts
from the manufacturers and others that are long term "lurkers"
on this list. These folks, and many others, do not understand that a true
on-line community must be built by participants.
Wow, What a chess match ! - I must really be a nerd..This chess match between
the IBM "deep blue" computer and the Grand Master is really interesting.
Each has won 1 game as of today (Sunday)...The computer can calulet 200
Million possible chess moves per second...while a human thinks MUCH slower....BUT..a
human only thinks of the RIGHT chess moves...we don't have to run through
ALL the possibilities like a computer does. That's what evolution is all
about...
_________________________________________________
Help Me Test This Thing.... I have put up a trial version of a page that
calculates the comparison prices of different heating fuels. It is untested
(except by me)... I would appreciate it if list members could surf to the
page and check it out.
The page is at http://chi.hearth.com/addcalc.html
Default assumptions for efficiency and fuel prices are listed, but you can
change them to the costs in your area. Feel free to link your own web sites
to this page if you would like your customers to have this service.
_________________________________________________
Can I buy the first one ?
PALO ALTO, Calif. (May 1, 1997 8:50 p.m. EDT) -- The maker of Mercedes-Benz
cars has come up with a vehicle than can cruise the Internet as well as
traditional highways.
Researchers for Germany's Daimler-Benz AG are showing off a Mercedes concept
car with multimedia computer screens, transceivers for hand-held computers
and a slot for a smart card.
But don't expect to find such specially equipped cars at your local dealer
any time soon.
The vehicle simply offers a glimpse into the future, said Paul Mehring,
director of the Daimler-Benz Research and Technology Center, where the car
went on display Wednesday. It is likely five to 10 years away from coming
to market, he said.
The Mercedes E420 sports a screen in the center of the dashboard that could
be used to get traffic information and navigation services from the Internet.
The computer would respond to voice commands.
The hand rest in the front seat also has a slot for a smart card, a credit
card-like piece of plastic equippped with a computer chip that lets drivers
adjust the seat and mirrors to their preferences. Such a card also could
carry phone directories and calendars.
The back seat is equipped with monitors on the back of the front seat driver
and passenger's headrests. They would provide access to the Internet, office
software, interactive games and navigation service.
1. Help with grade school assignment
X-Sender: [email protected]
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected] (P.McKenzie)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 13:17:20 -0400
Hi, this is George Gyftakis, John Freeman, and Shalaby Turner and were
doing a project for our Multimedia Class at Manasquan High School(New
Jersey). We're all 15 and we had to ask an expert a question and that's
where you come in.........We were wondering if you had ever found
anything interesting in a fireplace or have had any interesting
experences. We'd love to hear about it and we'd love even more to get
an A on this assignment so please respond. Thanks!
2. Woodstove Studies
From: "Coleman, Doug"
To: "'Hearth.com'"
Subject: questions
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:12:00 -0600
Encoding: 21 TEXT
To whom it may concern:
I am hoping you will be able to answer some questions of mine that have
arisen during a study I am performing about wood stoves and fireplaces.
They are the following:
1) What is the average lifetime of a woodstove?
2) Has anyone ever performed a study concerning the cost effectiveness
of replacing old woodstoves with new, cleaner models in order to improve
outdoor air quality? If so, could you tell me who or the name of the
paper?
3) Has anyone ever performed a study relating the use of woodstoves to
exceedances of air quality standards? If so, could you tell me who or
the name of the paper?
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
Doug Coleman
Acurex Environmental Corporation
From: "Coleman, Doug"
To: "'Hearth.com'"
Subject: Another question
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:47:00 -0600
Encoding: 15 TEXT
Hello,
I have 3 more questions to add to my previous list:
4) How many woodstoves currently exist in the United States today?
5) How many are new ones are sold each year?
6) How many are scrapped or thrown out each year?
Any information you could provide concerning these would be very
helpful. Thanks again.
Doug Coleman
Acurex Environmental Corporation
......
Webmasters Note: I would appreciate if any of you who are "in the know"
would answer these folks....
>From: [email protected] (Pat Kerr) (by way of Craig Issod)
>Subject: Outdoor Wood Furnace
>
>I'd be interested in any input on outdoor wood furnaces, experiential,intuitive,
or factual. Our retail store has installed a few in rural locations and
there has been success and satisfaction. Since the heat exchange is with
hot water, they lend themselves to quite a variety of applications and coverage
of heating needs for the rural homeowner. Since I added some info on the
furnace we sell to our web site, it has been the hottest source of inquiries.
Anybody have anything to say? Pat Kerr
Sunworks Hawkesbury Ontario
Brodie Road, Dalkeith, Ontario
[email protected]
*************************************************
That which is timeless is found now.
2. More on Central Heating
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 7 May 97 18:05:15 EDT
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Classic Outdoor Wood Furnaces
Hi Craig,
Outdoor wood furnaces, as most of our industry members are aware, are serious
local air polluters. You wouldn't want to have a window open or hang your
laundry out to dry with one of these working in the yard! They are becoming
a hot topic of conversation - if not sales - in our neck of the woods.
It was with more than a little surprise that I attended a local home show
to find that the Classic Outdoor Wood Furnaces advertise that they produce
"6.0 Gms/hr." This info is enclosed in an artistic "tag"
drawn on the backdrop provided by the manufacturer for dealers at shows,
barn walls etc.
This detail is left off the brochure I got from the retailer, but the
brochure does make some interesting claims.
1. "92.5% Combustion Efficiency Model CL-17 Tested by Warnock Hesrsey
Most Efficient Outdoor Furnace"
2. "Highest Efficiency Lowest Emissions Tested by Warnock Hersey"
3. "Highest Efficiency Lowest Emissions Inchscape Testing Services
Warnock Hersey" This is placed beside a logo - presumably of Inchscape.
I have emailed Warnock Hersey. Inchscape does not (apparently) exist anymore
and is now Intertest or something. No reply
I have a customer who understands EPA and emissions - from a consumer viewpoint
- and he claims that "It's EPA." This is what is being told to
potential clients about this product. Those of us who have seen outdoor
furnaces operating may feel (like me) that it is frustrating to promote
clean wood stoves and fireplaces - translated as EPA - and have these smoke
belchers presented as equivalent.
My questions are:
1. Does W-H allow this sort of quoting of COMBUSTION Efficiency - knowing
that customers will be confused. A bonfire may be 90%!
2. Does W-H allow use of "Highest Efficiency" by itself (as in
#2 & #3
above) in advertising - knowing that it will be confusing?
3. Is EPA aware of the use of its name on a banner when the item in
question is not tested or certified?
If they are not what do they intend to do?
Or am I a voice (literally) in the wilderness. If this is true the gloves
are off - just let me know what the rules are!
Cal Wallis
3. Webmaster is expert on this Central Heat subject (for once) !
from: Craig Issod, [email protected]
OK, we've broached a subject that I consider myself fairly experienced on....I
imported the HS TARM boilers for five years, and distributed them throughout
the entore US. In addition, I visited the plant in Denmark, put boilers
through testing, and helped with design. BTW, the current imported of these
fine boilers, TARM USA, are on this list and on the HearthNet web site -
They DO have boilers that burn as clean or cleaner than a few grams/hour..
So, lets talk for a bit about outdoor waterstoves. It is my Cal is correct
in many of his points. I have studied the design and burning principles
of many of these units, and have found the following problems:
1. They are usually promoted and sold by a wierd assortment of outlets,
including corner store, insulation companies, farm and tractor supplies,
etc. Many of these businesses are not schooled in hydronic heat and wood
burning in general. Many units are sold telling the farmers " burn
your green wood, your stumps, your trash, etc...and many of the owners do
this. Suffice it to say that many a rural valley has filled up with smoke
from these units. It would not be unrealistic to say that many of these
units produce in excess of 100 grams/hours of smoke.
2. Many of the early models were designed and built to "get around"
the standards...that is, for a boiler to be allowed in a home, it must meet
certain standards...put it outside, and the standards do not apply. This
allowed to units to be bought and installed for MUCH less money than real
boilers. In many cases, these units are not pressurized, therefore the construction
is much lighter.
3. Many of the early units had limited life spans...as short as 3-4 years
before developing leaks....the users were the guinea pigs...Many have been
improved now by using stainless fireboxes, etc.
OK, there are some sour grapes here. Even though I sold a few million dollars
worth of Tarm boilers, the "waterstoves" outsold the "real"
boilers 10 to 1 - Which proves (like in the Mac vs Windows and Betal vs
VHS) that the best product is not always the most accepted. Fact is, these
"waterstoves" would be illegal in most of the European countries
where TARM is a big seller. Anyway, my sales manager and myself always thought
it amazing that people thought on such a short term level.
Now, Central Boiler might be another case. They started out like some of
the others, but I spoke to their President at HPA and found:
1. They are an ASME rated boiler shop (means high standards, and quality
material)
2. They are trying, and hopefully succeeding, in increasing the efficiency
of their boilers.
I have no personal experience with the products...but the above are very
good signs. They do have a web site....as does Tarm.
This is in contrast to some of the other "waterstove" shops I
have studied.
In summary, the concept of an outdoor stove is good (in some cases). I would
see a good market for a well-priced, well-constructed and efficient unit....with
a RELATIVELY clean buring design...I say relatively, because being a large
fireboxed central heater, I think anything under 15 or 20 grams/hours would
be great.
Indoor boilers are also an option. Again, clean burning is nice...but the
American Public seems unwilling to pay for it. Give 10 customers a choice
between a $2000 dirty boiler and a $4,500 clean one..and nine will pick
the cheaper one.
Cal, you are not a voice in the wilderness...but I've faced the situation
head-on and the public is tough to educate !
I also spoke (years ago) to HPA (I think it was John Crouch at the time)
regarding the blight upon the clean-burning reputation of our industry...There
was some sort of court case in VT around a guy with a smoking waterstove.
By the way, there is probably a good market for a clean burning HOT AIR
furnace..if someone wanted to take the chance and invest the R&D. I
have quite a few designs I've thought up regarding this.
That's my take for now...
Craig Issod
4. Blowers on Stoves
To: [email protected]
From: Wayne Rourke
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/4/97
I would like to open up some discussion about blowers in the hearth products,
( both wood and gas ). Is it getting better out in this industry? Does one
or a group of manufacturers have a good solution for long term blower use?
Are some dealers steering consumers away from blowers on heaters or is this
a regional thing? Sincerely,
Wayne Rourke
President
Northwest Stoves
From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 8 May 97 08:50:48
EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Outdoor boilers
, again
Craig,
Well, just when the list seems to taper off.....
Outdoor boilers - There is an old (now) Gullup survey done for VC in the
eighties that found that 93% (if memory serves) of those who owned "wood
burning devices" (whatever the customer thought that was - no explanation
would be offered by the Gallup surveyor) liked them. 60% upon further queries
identified that they owned "Franklins!" Gallup had never in their
120+ years of surveying found a product with more satisfaction. Anecdotally
we retailers hear this all the time - about Tempwoods, Fishers, traditional
masonry fireplaces, etc. People would be happy with Model A's if that all
they ever rode in! Pat Kerr's "success and satisfaction" must
be viewed with that in mind - not to mention that most of us will not admit
a $5000.+ error on our part - for a few years at least.
There are enormous amounts of smoke from any 17 cu. ft. firebox burning
for 36 hours. All outdoor furnaces - open boilers in reality - whether the
welds are ASME or not, share this problem. Long burn times can only exacerbate
the issue of "dirty woodburning" in a time when the gas monoply
is going to town on how "green" they are, and how dirty wood is.
It certainly violates cleanbuning and airshed issues by "going around"
the issue. I would like to be part of the solution........
Tarm is a great, clean burning product, as are Jetstream, and Dumont. Together
they had .0000001% of the market - because of price, and the technical knowledge
required to sell and install them. For example: to properly size the A coil
to convert to the standard hot air distribution system - I have no idea
how these outdoor boiler retailers (farmers and welders as Craig mentioned),
or distributors size / design these A coils, because my experience tells
me that the flow rate, duct size, temperature drop (delta T), and heat input,
all have to be predicted. This is tough with fluctuating wood heat output
- as contrasted to gas or oil. When we sell these good interior wood boilers
each coil is custom manufacturered and typically took several weeks from
a good supplier who helped with the design.
I had heard that VT had banned in some counties all outdoor wood units because
of smoke . Can this be confirmed or denied?
As for a clean HOT AIR furnace. The CSA B415 committee - (Emmission and
Efficiency of Wood Burning - Canada's EPA) of which I have been a member
for years, had tested for it most Canadian wood furnace,s and found them
sadly lacking - high emmissions and very low efficiency - facts most "listening"
retailers or sweeps could tell anyone. The test lab was very disappointed
and got special permission to test the American Clayton furnaces - which
we distribute. They were very impressed (relatively). Charles LeMay of IRTA
(at the time) reported that their 7.1 (cu. ft.) model came within a gram
or two of meeting B415. He felt that the addition of a "flame spreader",
they would meet it. B415, it should be stated, goes beyond EPA in that as
the firebox gets large,r B415 would allow the emmissions to rise proportionately.
It is a mathematically correct extrapolation arrived at over years of committee
struggling, because Canada is (often) colder than the US. Someone else from
B415 may wish to correct my clumbsy attempt to explain a complicated issue
but....maybe Rick Curkeet will reply about my orginal query about what WH
is doing re Classic Outdoor furnace claims.
RE: Wayne Rourke's question on blowers. We do not recommend blowers on freestanding
stoves - although required on inserts. Our thinking is that in the stove
room radiant heat will be sufficient. Natural convecton is pretty incredible
- way beyond the scope of a blower. Where you DO need to move air into another
room beside the stove room, door fans are cheaper, more reliable and do
a better job than a noisy stove blower. We know this seems unusual in that
we are making less money on that sale - but we would rather sell a more
expensive, higher quality, easier to use stove anyway - some of which don't
even offer blowers. I do know that some stoves - Lakewood comes to mind
- had such lousy heat transfer that blowers were necessary to get ANY heat
out of them! But these "lemons" shouldn't have been sold anyway.
A good stove doesn't need a blower. Customers seem to want them though don't
they? So we sell some. They sure complain when they break! And almost no
dealer or manuals tell customers to clean the drum. Cal Wallis
_____________
2. Response from Test Lab to Above
From: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 18:04:54 -0400 (EDT)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/7/97
In a message dated 97-05-08 00:53:57 EDT, you write:
I have emailed Warnock Hersey. Inchscape does not (apparently) exist
anymore and is now Intertest or something. No reply
My questions are:
1. Does W-H allow this sort of quoting of COMBUSTION Efficiency - knowing
that customers will be confused. A bonfire may be 90%!
2. Does W-H allow use of "Highest Efficiency" by itself (as in
#2 & #3
above) in advertising - knowing that it will be confusing?
3. Is EPA aware of the use of its name on a banner when the item in
question is not tested or certified?
If they are not what do they intend to do?
Or am I a voice (literally) in the wilderness. If this is true the gloves
are off - just let me know what the rules are!
Cal Wallis >>
---------------------
First Warnock Hersey is most definately still in existance. We were a part
of INCHCAPE TESTING SERVICES until late last year. We are now INTERTEK TESTING
SERVICES and are essentially an independant company. However, we still conduct
testing and certification services for the entire heating applaince industry
and use the familiar "WHI" Warnock Hersey certification mark to
indicate products which are certified under our program. I can now be reached
by E-Mail at rcurkeet.itsqs.com. Also please visit our web site at http://www.itsqswest.com.
Now, we consider all test reports to be proprietary and we cannot, therefore,
provide actual test data without a client's permission. However, we have
asked the client in this case to cease and disist use of the literature
sited because it uses our name without our authorization and in a manner
which we believe to be misleading. All of our test reports include a statement
which athorizes the client to reproduce the report only in its entirety.
I would therefore suggest that in any case were the validity of such claims
is in question, you contact the manufacturer and ask for a copy of the complete
report. You should then be quickly able to determine if the claims being
made are properly supported or if they are pieces of insignificant results
taken out of context. I would like to ask anyone who comes across literature
which you believe may make an improper or inappropriate reference to Warnock
Hersey, Intertek Testing Services, or ETL Testing Laboratories ( all ITS
companies) to forward an original copy to me at: Intertek Testing Services,
8431 Murphy Drive, Middleton, WI 53562. I assure you we will not hesitate
to take any steps necessary to protect our good name and reputation.
Rick Curkeet P.E.
Chief Engineer
3. Blowers on Stoves and ODS questions.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:11:17 -0400
From: [email protected] (Mike Scarland)
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/7/97
To: [email protected]
Blowers on Stoves - Original postFrom: Wayne Rourke
CGA has a program which Consumers Gas participates in called the Appliance
Field Observation Report Program (AFOR). I coordinate this program at Consumers
Gas, and we presently submit about 1,600 to 2,000 reports a year to CGA.
The reports are submitted by our service personnel when they find a service
related problem that they feel the manufacturer should be aware of. The
manufacturer can use the information to assess parts performance (eg. parts
prematurely deteriorating), improve serviceability/accessibility, identify
potential trends and/or safety related issues, and develop an appropriate
resolution strategy. During 1996, there were 60 changes made by manufacturers
as a result of our AFOR's.
This is a long winded background to tell you that generally speaking the
performance of blower motors used in gas fireplaces, vented heaters, water
heaters, is excellent. Generally premature deterioration can be attributed
to installations that are not up to spec., preventing sufficient air flow
around the unit. There have also been noise problems related to the method
used by the fireplace manufacturer to 'adhere' the motor to the appliance.
There are certainly occasional reports of premature deterioration, corrosion
of metal clips, noise from loose impellers/unbalanced shafts, etc. that
are related to ventor motor manufacturing problems, but these are relatively
rare and tend to be 'one-off' issues.
FYI - I can't be much more specific as we only share detailed information
with the manufacturer. The success of this program is based on the close
nature of the communication we have with the manufacturer.
Item 2 - Oxygen Depletion Sensors
I am trying to get a feel for the success of the ODS. I have read numerous
reports on unvented heaters which sometimes make generic statements on the
device, for example "there has never been an incident since the introduction
of this device to these appliances". However, as unvented heaters are
not sold in our jurisdiction, I do not have any feel for their operational
characteristics through traditional reporting vehicles such as AFOR.
If a gas fireplace manufacturer was to install one of these rather than
the VSS device now required under the Vented Heater Standards, would there
be concerns out there on this (assuming the Standards were changed to reflect
this)?
I understand these devices are used extensively in Europe, and that there
is even an attitude where people are apprehensive about VSS devices as their
experience is with ODS.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
4. More Blowers on Stoves
X-Sender: [email protected]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 07:09:26 -0700
To: [email protected]
From: Grant Darrow
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/7/97
.
>4. Blowers on Stoves
>
>To: [email protected]
>From: Wayne Rourke
>Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/4/97
>
>I would like to open up some discussion about blowers in the hearth
>products, ( both wood and gas ). Is it getting better out in this
>industry? Does one or a group of manufacturers have a good solution
for
>long term blower use? Are some dealers steering consumers away from
>blowers on heaters or is this a regional thing? Sincerely,
>
>Wayne Rourke
>President
>Northwest Stoves
If a blower is an option I talk the homeowner out of it right away. Blowers
don't make more heat they just move more air, so I generally talk them into
a ceiling fan. My single bigest service call is noisey blowers and fans
and its usually not the blower but some loose part rattling on the stove.
Quieting down a noisey stove consumes hugh amounts of time which isn't covered
under warranty and you can't really charge the customer. The real problem
ones are where one spouse doesn't even notice the blower and the blower
is driving the other spouse up t
1. Lower cost Macs
Craig Issod ([email protected]
We've had the PC vs Mac debate in the past, and I think most folks know
the strong points of each platform. One Mac weak point has alway been the
price...they always cost more than cloned and direct-sales PCS.
Thought some list members might be interested in the release below...seems
that $999 is a good price for a SCSI equiped 140MHZ Mac clone.
"Umax says it is shipping the new SuperMac C500LT/140 today at an estimated
street price of $999. This variant of the existing C500 includes an upgradeable,
140-MHz PowerPC 603e processor, 16 MB of memory, 1 MB of video DRAM, 8X
CD-ROM, 1.2 GB fast hard drive, two PCI slots, an integral internal/external
fast SCSI-2 bus, keyboard, and mouse. The company cut other prices, as well."
2. Blowers on stoves
LETS MAKE SOME NOISE ABOUT FANS AND NOISEY STOVES !!
Wayne,
We conclude that most manufacturers still dont seem to care much about fans
or about the day to day frustration that they cause with customers. These
days many seem to be much more interested in filling alternative distribution
channels than in building quality products.
Year after year, model after model, stoves continue have irritating fan
noises. Im not talking about wear out problems, Im talking about problems
that begin the first day their stoves are used by our customers. The rattling,
the harmonics, the vibrations etc. make the stove seem very cheap to customers.
Occasionally, a stoves fan is somewhat quiet, but next year that same manufacturers
new stove model has a noisy fan again.
Ten years ago it was about the same, except that fans were mainly optional
and we could talk customers out of them.
The biggest problem now is that most of the gas appliances we now sell have
built-in fans and of course, lots of built-in, unreimbursed service calls.
It seems smart to always steer customers away from fans where possible because
of the huge customer frustrations that occur. We provide dozens of goodwill
service calls and are usually not able to fix the problem.
Lets look at some typical numbers. The gross profit is about $50 per rattletrap
fan and one out of 5 typically has noise problems. The total cost of the
3 or 4 goodwill services is more than your $250 gross. What else do you
get for your free service work? A bad mouthing customer and frustrated employees.
So why sell fans.
One of our major manufacturers who makes a good looking gas stove line,
has allowed chronic fan noise problems to continue for three full seasons.
The manufacturer seems much more infatuated with investing significant resources
in HVAC business than in fixing a major problem.
Another of our manufacturers with a really classy stove line, has had so
much fan noise in their gas stoves that our sales staff cannot be talked
into promoting the stoves period. We all hate to get the noise calls because
we know that customers will become very frustrated and there is usually
no solution.
Noise problems make sales personnel very gun shy of the noisier models and
significant sales losses do result. Customers also tell their neighbors
about what a piece if junk their brand XXX stove is. We all loose.
Can it get much better. Absolutely. First, manufacturers need to know about
the problems. Most manufacturers try not to know about all the failure data
on fan noise because they will not pay warranty. Many manufacturers also
dont seem want their reps or their dealers telling them about problems.
They wont fix problems when they think that they dont have any. They really
have their heads in the sand on this issue.
Quiet and good working fans could be a very positive feature to help sell
stoves. They do help move the air around in one room and customers can really
feel the heat when they are designed right.
I personally think that quiet stoves (including pilots and burners) are
the easiest and most cost effective way for a manufacturer to project quality
to a consumer. Stove fans are generally so noisy that its easy for a manufacturers
stove to be much quieter that the competition.
Im convinced that Austroflamms success in the pellet stove market was primarily
due to the fact that sales personnel could easily demonstrate quality to
customers by listening to the very low noise levels. Late model, full size
Whitfields have also had the same low noise levels without using the expensive
Austroflamm fans. Woodstove and gas stove fans are still mostly abominations.
Judging by the current situation, quiet fan systems and quiet stoves in
general, must require the hiring of rocket science, brain surgery and NBA
basketball personnel along with having to build the quiet components out
of that very rare element unobtainium.....Or something like that.
Maybe its simply a matter of priorities. Quiet certainly needs to be designed
into stove fan systems and then it needs to be verified with good testing
in extreme conditions, including transportation vibration. Quiet also needs
to be verified by production sampling on a regular basis. This does cost
money.
I strongly believe that the manufacturer who puts a high priority on quiet
will improve their market share much more than if they spent 10 times as
much on advertising.
Hay lurker manufacturers, can you be quiet for a change? Actually, we would
appreciate hearing from you about putting a higher priority on consistantly
quiet stoves and fireplaces.
Roger Sanders
Fireside Spa and Patio
Bend, Oregon
--Comment on above--From Craig Issod ([email protected])
I agree ! Having a quiet reliable blower system is not rocket science. manufacturers
with anything else should be ashamed of their engineering department. Even
I ( a home-built, quasi-engineer, highschool dropout carpenter) could design
and implement better blower solutions than I have seen in some current and
past models.
Get with it, manufacturers...
Hints : Many stoves don't need the powerful blowers that are put on them.
Using slower and less powerful fans quiets them down a bunch. I understand
the sales "sizzle" on the dealers floor is reduced a bit...but
so will your warranty exposure..and your reputation with the dealers and
salespeople will improve.
Also, the design of convection chambers and air inlet and outlet grills
can greatly affect the noise. Certain designs are much more prone to whistling,
etc. Don't just add the blower after the design is done... test, test, test....
Easily removable blowers are great...Temco fireplaces uses a blower assembly
that plugs into a small junction box inside the bottom air chamber...easy
to replace and service without any wiring.
1. More on Waterstoves
From: "Pat Kerr"
To: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:29:59 -0500
Subject: Outdoor furnace
Reply-to: [email protected]
Priority: normal
Thanks to Cal and to Craig for responding to my inquiry. Of course, the
reason
that I asked was to get others' response, not because I am entirely
sold myself. Let me say that we do not sell the Classic Outdoor Wood
Furnace.
If I could sum up the case against, as I read the messages.
1) One manufacturer appears to be making some unjustified and
misleading claims.
2) They are sold by a wierd assortment of outlets.
3) The earlier models had short life spans.
4) Vague rumors of a court case or local banning in Vermont
5) Technical knowledge is probably needed to install them
6) Customers don't know what is right - if they have it, they like
it, especially if they spent a lot of money on it.
7) The main point - high emissions; low efficiency - a problem which
is shared by Indoor Wood Furnaces also (also sold by a wierd
assortment of outlets)
Frankly, I think that the jury is still out. It does not take a
course in Critical Thinking to understand that the first five or six
objections just are not sufficient to dismiss the product. I would
like to enter these points.
1) Not all companies can be dismissed for making such claims nor for
buiding "lightweight".
2) A pretty wierd assortment of 'stove shops' sprang up about 18-20
years ago.
3) Technical expertise can be acquired by training, field experience
and manufacturers' cooperation.
4) A homeowner purchasing one of these will be installing it in lieu
of at least two, sometimes three or more heating appliances. Three
woodstoves putting out 6gms/hr of particulate makes 18 gms per hour.
Perhaps one of them would be an indoor wood furnace, which, if I
understand correctly, for the main has the same emmission difficulty.
Or the replaced heating could be propane pool heater, fossil fuel
burning furnace, and/or coal/nuclear/hydrodam generated electricity.
What is problem free these days?
6) Customers who have spent over $5000. are usually the first ones
to complain about a poor product.
5) One stove to feed with 24" unsplit wood means
a) less time handling wood and
b) more significantly, perhaps, it means less gasoline and oil used on
chain saw and splitter.
7) Potential dirt and allergens are kept outside.
8) Folks who might not burn wood because of the inside fuel factor
are now burning a renewable fuel.
9) I am reading about "ceramic turbo chamber" which "'reburns
flue
gases at as much as 2200'F"; preheated primary and secondary forced
air draft. No burn times claimed beyond 24 hrs. To my untechnical mind,
these seem like steps toward higher efficiencies and less smoke emission.
Now I would like more facts with which to look at the question.
So for further discussion, I close my request for intuition and
hearsay - facts, only, please.. Thanks for responding guys.
You have focussed my questions.
Pat Kerr
This message was sent or forwarded to you by Pat Kerr
Sunworks Incorporated
Hawkesbury Ontario
[email protected]
[email protected]
2. More on Blowers
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:33:17 +0000
From: Roger Sanders
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/9/97
Some Noise Irony.
The stupid noise problems continue.
Craig,
As I was reading the last Hearth Digest where you published my e-mail
about stove noise, a customer was calling and another Service Order was
being written on a stove with a serious noise problem.
Turns out we have been out to the customer's house 7 times, including
one time with the rep. Everything including the kitchen sink has been
replaced and a lot of "goodwill" money has been invested with
no
improvemments.
The customer is now demanding that that damned stove be removed
immediately and it's 80 degrees outside. They are really pissed off and
they want the noise problem out of their lives.
We've wasted dozens of staff hours and now we are being asked to eat a
$2300 stove installation.
The "Big Box" retailers just ship the junk back to the manufacturer
and
back charge for all the extra costs.
Noise is not our fault. Why should we little dumb specialty retailers be
forced to eat all these kinds of problems? We certainly need some
"boiler plate" in our Purchase Orders like the "Big Boxes"
use to
protect our rights also.
Roger Sanders
Fireside Spa & Patio
Bend, OR
3. Why sell Blowers?
To: [email protected]
From: Grant Darrow
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/9/97
.
Thank you Roger.
So why is this industry selling fans? I really never had a problem with
fans until they where included with the applaince. And i might say as a
service orinated businees I made good money, prior, servicing noisey
fans,... furnace fans, Blaze king fans, everyones fans....and now their
my
fans, right here on my desk is a call on a 2 month old noisey fan, too hell
with the installation, it's noisey!!!!!
Perception is everything.
>Lets look at some typical numbers. The gross profit is about $50 per
>rattletrap fan and one out of 5 typically has noise problems. The total
>cost of the 3 or 4 goodwill services is more than your $250 gross. What
>else do you get for your free service work? A bad mouthing customer
and
>frustrated employees. So why sell fans.
.
1. Waterstoves- Another opinion
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:16:06 -0700
From: John Gulland
Reply-To: [email protected]
Organization: Gulland Associates Inc.
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Outdoor boilers
I have read the outdoor boiler thread with interest and have two cents to
put in.
A planning consultant working under contract to two local villages called
me last week to talk about outdoor boilers. He had been hired specifically
to write rules that would have the effect of banning them from these jurisdictions
because the smoke was making everyone nearby miserable.
Last year a small factory half an hour away from my house was set up to
build outdoor boilers. They seem to be doing well. Mind you, most of the
times I've driven by I haven't been able to see the factory for the thick
haze of smoke from the outdoor boiler that heats it. I can assure you that
the factory owner and staff have no experience whatsoever in home heating.
But they had a welding machine so they set up shop. It takes me back to
the 1970s and the wood stove craze.
I have poked my head inside quite a number of outdoor boilers to see what
technology they were using, but I haven't found any yet. I have seen no
evidence that the designers gave much thought to combustion quality. Sure,
all manufacturers claim to have a secret weapon like a "ceramic turbo
chamber" which "'reburns flue gases at as much as 2200'F",
but we stopped buying that kind of hype when EPA started certifying stoves,
separating the hype from the facts. When outdoor boilers start meeting emission
regulations and stop annoying anyone within a mile, then I'll start singing
their praises.
But what I find really offensive about the purveyors of outdoor boilers
is that they invariably pitch their product as being safer than a hearth
inside the home. As one who has toiled for many years along side a lot of
good people dedicated to making wood a safe home heating fuel, I am not
amused when the builders of these crude devices imply that heating with
a stove or fireplace is inherently unsafe. Nonsense I say, and shame on
them for taking the low road in their marketing. If they want my respect,
they must move beyond the kind of irresponsible marketing that most of us
left behind in the early 1980s.
Regards,
John
This is for business: http://www.gulland.ca
This is for pleasure: http://www.wood-heat.com
2. Waterstoves - regulation in Vermont ?
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:57:22 -0700
From: John Crouch
Organization: Hearth Products Association
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/8/97 outdoor furnaces & Vermont
The State of Vermont's Enviromental Quality agency has issued for public
comment a rule which would restrict the sale and installation of outdoor
water stoves. They would require disclosure in advertising and at the time
of sale. They would restrict the location of such a unit unless it was at
least 1000' away from a residence OTHER than the owner of the unit. In addition
they are trying to come up with a stack height requirement related to hilly
terran. On behalf of our entire industry I have commented on a portion of
their rule which is not clear, and may confuse customers. I support their
proposed requiremnt that consumers be told to burn only clean dry wood in
the appliances.
My sense after communicating with that state's air quality people is that
they view the appliance as very appropriate for rural locations but are
attempting to deal with complaints they recive when the appliance is used
in more rural/suburban areas. They also have received complaints about summertime
use, as these appliances are used to heat domestic hot water during the
summer. Vermont, like much of the eastern U.S. and Canada, can have long
periods of stagnant air in the summer.
I am aware of concerns in Wisconson, and Ontario regarding this product,
again, principally when it is used in town, not when it is used in rural
areas. Dairy farms particularly are good locations for this type of product.
John Crouch [email protected]
Waterstoves: Central Boiler has answered a lot of the
concerns below. Of course, the advertising of combustion efficiencies is
another story in itself...and is pervasive in our industry. The customer
wants to know what % of the fuel they get into the house as heat. Our industry
needs to mature and present this figure...which means Vent-free is not 99.9%,
B-Vent gas is not 82% and Central Boiler is not 92%..As they say "Let
him who is without sin...." (and that person is surely not me!).
I think we are all learning from this dialog, and I hope it promotes communication
and responsibility among us..and between us and our customers.
Blowers: Our store, Stoveworks has also spent a lot of money and many service
calls trying to placate customers with poorly made blowers. In fact, one
came up this week. We installed a fireplace and a new blower...the vari-speed
was bad on installation, so we had to order one and return to the job to
install.
The customer called again a few days later...they said the vari-speed was
not turning off ...we checked with them to make sure they were tuning it
in both directions, etc. We also had both the husband and wife check it.
Frustrated, the customer called and told us to just remove the dang blower
(and refund them).I agreed and sent my men out there today...When they arrived,
they turned the knob and the thing turned off immediately ! They showed
the customer this..and the customer blamed us..saying we did not educate
them correctly on how to use it ! (no thermostat, no on-off switch--just
a vari-speed--which they had turned on)
Bottom line, the customers were quite foolish. It really worries me that
people like this are driving around in complicated machine like cars, and
may actually be in the car which is 12 inches from mine and going 60 miles
per hour !
1. Response from Central Boiler about Waterstoves
2. More about blowers
1. Response from Central Boiler about Waterstoves
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997
To: [email protected]
Central Boiler has followed the discussion about us and outdoor wood furnaces
with interest. We would now like to interject some facts and observations.
FACTS OF THE MATTER: Fact - 92.5 is the combustion efficiency provided to
Central Boiler by Warnock Hersey/Inchcape Testing Services, the lab that
tested the CL 17 in March of 1995 using the same formula as for indoor stoves.
Mr. Curkeet authorized Central Boiler to use The Words "Most Efficient
Outdoor Furnace Tested by Warnock Hersey - 92.5 Combustion Efficiency"
on brochures advertising the Classic Outdoor Wood Furnace. Fact - Central
Boiler has not used Warnock Hersey or Incape on any material for almost
a year and have found it to be a sales advantage. Fact - 6.0 Gr/Hr is the
correct number for particulate emissions on a test performed on the Classic
CL 17 using method 28A and 5G-3 as a guideline, which the procedure for
collection, measurement and reporting of particulate emissions is readily
applicable to the outdoor wood furnaces. Fact - The Classic CL 17 is the
most efficient furnace that produced the lowest amount of emissions of the
five leading brands tested by WH (Hardy 180, Woodmaster 434MF, Taylor 750,
Heatmore 200SS, and the Classic CL17.) All test were performed with same
procedure and the same supply of wood. Fact - Central Boiler has never advertised
the 92.5 combustion efficiency as anything other than COMBUSTION EFFICIENCY!
Central Boiler also advertises delivered efficiency - BTUs per pound of
wood. Not 92.5%. But the combustion efficiency is a very important part
of the process of wood burning. Fact - Central Boiler does have a lab report
on a bonfire! It is far from the 90% combustion efficiency that Cal Wallis
was guessing it to be. Fact - The EPA conducted tests on the Classic CL
17 and found it had emission rates much lower than conventional uncertified
wood stoves and PAH emissions similar to certified wood stoves. Fact - A
FEW INTERESTING OBSERVATIONS!!
It appears that Cal Wallis is a little frustrated... Why, we asked would
he make so many unfounded statements. We understand he sells masonry fireplaces,
which we understand produce about 200 gr/hr as suggested by info distributed
by HS TARM. Central Boiler would certainly not want to be presented as equivalent
to those kinds of fireplaces. We also understand that Cal sells exempt,
non-certified wood furnaces that do not quite make the grade for Canadian
CSA "standards" which make exception for larger fireboxes emitting
more particulates. We also understand Cal sells other "clean burning"(by
what standard?- Jetstreams and Dumonts -also exempt?) of which we have not
seen any emissions testing data or particulate emissions numbers to verify
the claims of "clean burning." It also appears to me that he has
a complicated method of trying to install a heating coil he feels must be
custom manufactured for each installation. I would also find that very frustrating
and time consuming. How does a heating contractor install a coil for a heat
pump or air conditioning system? Certainly not with a custom made coil for
each system. Many of claims and statements made in the past few days have
been unfounded. Craig, if you are interested in looking at any or all of
our test results, we will be glad to show you.
Rodney Tollefson Dennis Filer
2. More about blowers
X-Sender: [email protected] (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:17:30 -0700
To: [email protected]
From: Charlie Swett
Subject: More on Blowers
Mime-Version: 1.0
As an ex motor/blower salesman and current hearth products rep I can empathize
with dealers' frustration at the problems caused by "bad fans".
Craig and Roger Sanders hit the nail on the head; most blower problems are
the result of poor engineering. For years I was frequently put off by hearth
product manufacturers who refused or were unable to consider the specific
criteria necessary for proper application and performance of an air moving
device.
To most manufacturers the blower is an afterthought. They've designed this
great stove but, oh yeah, we have to hang a blower on it to satisfy the
marketing department. An air moving device that is used to increase the
heat exchange efficiency of the stove is a critical component that should
be incorporated in the initial design stages. This is particularly true
of pellet and gas stoves that use heat exchangers to maximize heat transfer.
Since the blower is being used to move air through the exchanger it makes
sense that it should be an integral and early part of the system design.
In my experience there are very few "engineers" in our industry
who understand enough of the principles of air flow to properly design a
heat exchange system. And a poorly designed plenum or heat exchanger can
defeat any attempt to "hang on" a quiet and efficient air moving
device.
Fortunately there are several things that you, as a dealer, can do to decrease
the decibel level of your customers when it comes to blowers. When shopping
new product keep in mind that heat and contamination (dirt) are the primary
factors in determining blower or fan life. Some things to look for:
- Is the blower or fan mounted in a relatively cool location? Is it readily
accessible for servicing?
- How is it mounted? Is it mounted metal to metal or has the manufacturer
used some type of vibration isolation? This is crucial since even the best
made blowers have some vibration or will develop it over time as the impeller
(wheel) collects dirt and gets out of balance.
- Blowers or fans should be mounted with the motor shaft in a horizontal
position to minimize noise and maximize life. When a motor shaft is mounted
vertically the motor should be of the ball bearing type. Ball bearings,
however, are noisier than sleeve bearings or bushings, are more expensive
and typically have a shorter life.
- Does the stove have an air filter to prevent dust, hair, grease and dirt
buildup on the impeller? This is a rarity in our industry but when was the
last time you saw a gas or electric furnace without a filter? In all fairness,
filters are very difficult to design into our products but if you can find
a stove with one, that's a big plus for motor/blower life. As dirt builds
up on the wheel it reduces performance (air flow) making the motor run hotter
(shorter life), throws the impeller out of balance (more noise and shorter
life) and reduces the heat exchange efficiency of the stove. The moral:
cleaning the dirt out of a blower impeller wheel should be a routine part
of the annual service.
- Can you re-oil the bearings? "Permanently Lubricated" is a marketing
ploy used by motor manufacturers. When translated it simply means that you
can't add oil to the bearings. Once the available oil is used up or evaporated,
the motor is toast. One of the drawbacks to ball bearings is that in the
small motors used in our industry, they are virtually impossible to re-grease.
Sleeve bearings with oil tubes will, all else being equal, last longer because
you can oil them. But don't over oil! a few drops a year is all that is
necessary. Any more will blow the seals causing the lubricant to run out
and, again, the motor is toast.
As I mentioned earlier (this is getting long; sorry) no manner of blower
is going to correct for a poorly designed plenum or heat exchanger. Blower
"noise" is often the buffeting sound the air makes as it passes
through a system with sharp corners and rapid contraction and expansion
angles. If a stove you are considering is suspect, ask to see (hear) it
operating in a fired condition. As the stove heats up, the density of the
air going through it decreases and sounds that you hear when it is cold
can disappear or new ones can suddenly appear.
For those products that you now sell and are giving you blower fits, use
your vendor's warranty system to make them aware of the financial pain you
are feeling as a result of their bogus designs. Warranty claims are the
best way to drive a manufacturer to improve the quality of their product.
If they are not responsive - well, there are a lot of manufactures in our
industry that are crying for business. It's a buyer's market out there.
Charlie Swett
Crossroads Sales Co.
Portland, Oregon
Greetings from sunny California!
Are you ready for some reading? The "list" has gotten a little
stuffy with the tech stuff. Time for something different:
I really miss the "list" of old when we used to rant against things
and corporations that we needed to rant about. There were some pretty cool
"articles" written as e-mail. It's time once again for the pioneers
of this deal to start writing again. I've been waiting for Skip Stahlmer
(sorry if I have misspelled your name Skip) to write again. And it's been
so long since I have heard from the guy from Wisconsin (or where ever it
was)I can't remember his name other than he has a signature that has something
to do with a dragon. You know who you are. How come I didn't see your annual
vendor, distributor, rep ranking / blasting / praising... this year?
I also miss the reports from around the country on how things were going..
Since you asked:
The California weather has been absolutely living up to it's reputation
the last 3 or 4 weeks. This is my most favorite time of year here in Northern
California. It's been in the mid 70s and feels perfect. Since the shop pays
my wife (she takes the draws) it's like I work for nothing... until I realize
that I get paid in the currency of time. When things slow down some in the
spring and summer I turn the grunt work over to my crew and let them run
with it and I get time in the sun with a stack of books. You should see
the tan I have going! I'm being paid well. Stress? What's that?
Here is part of my reading list that I recommended to you Netheads out there:
Being Digital by Nicholas Negoponte of the MIT Media Lab
Net Gain by Hagel and Armstrong. This one reads like a textbox but it's
from the Harvard Business School Press and worth the work to read it. Amazing
charts!
A very cool read is Architects of the Web. 1,000 Days that Built the Future
of Business by Robert H. Read. The introduction by J. Neil Weintraut is
an increadable essay on the history and the state of the Internet. For those
that feel the Internet is the most important technological event since the
advent of the personal computer, this is a book you will enjoy.
To use the other side of my brain I actually bought, and to my kids amazement,
read Programming Perl, and Teach yourself Perl in 21 days. Pretty close
to 15 hundred pages. Then to really start to frighten my family I downloaded
a "book" on programming with Visual Basic (build those windows
apps!) from ZDU (Ziff Davis University which is cool). But yikes! That was
too much work for summer reading! So I read some fun stuff to bring me back
from the brink of geekdom... Lewis and Clark, Airframes, and Into Thin Air,
The English Patient....
One last recomendation for your summer reading... Letitia Baldrige's Complete
Guide to Executive Manners. We could all use better manners and this is,
after all, the *Complete Guide*. It's got... everything.
Browsers...
I have been a Netscape kinda guy since way back when this all started. These
are the guys that started it all back at the U of Illinois. I have been
a beta tester for them through several versions. The beta of version 4 was
very cool and got even better through prerelease 3. When prerelease 4 came
out I dutifully downloaded all 11 megs or whatever it is. It took almost
an hour. Well I have to tell you... Prerelease 4 is one buggy mother. It
crashes big time. It got so bad that I deleted it and downloaded good ole
version 3.01. But... yuk is it ugly compared to version 4. I got very spoiled
by the email in version 4. Sending e-mail formatted with hidden HTML tags
is very nice. It then becomes like a word processor where you can control
the font, font color, size, background color. The works. When version 4
finally comes out in its final release version, it is going to be very good
indeed. Since I bailed on the Prerelease version, I suddenly miss the spell-check...
a lot!
I have a computer committee meeting coming up at the end of the month. It's
going to be an interesting meeting for me. There is so much potential for
computing in our little industry. There is going to be discussion on data
transfer from vendors to dealers and back. Getting SKU info electronically.
hmmm Not a real priority in my store. Give me your thoughts. If you got
all your data from your vendors on floppies all in the same format, would
you be willing to change your accounting programs in order to use all of
the data? What are the chances of all of your vendors changing their software
to an industry standard to facilitate order entry..?
How about transfering the data as bits instead of atoms. Get or give the
data over the net instead of through the mail!
There are so many neat things that are being made possible because of the
"Net" specifically the "Web". I like this analogy I
read about the operator at the phone company... It used to be that you had
to deal with an operator everytime you wanted to make a call. Then the technology
advanced to where we can dial our own calls. Calling someone then became
a whole lot more satisfying. It is now possible on the web to check the
progress of packages sent by FedEx or UPS yourself. You can even see when
a package was delivered and who signed for it. The operator was eliminated
and you with your browser became the operator.
Wouldn't it be cool to go to the website of a vendor of yours and check
the status of an order and have your answer immediately without having to
call them long distance? I bet the vendor would think that cool as well
when they don't have to be on the phone all day answering those types of
questions. Or how about entering your order to the same company by filling
out a form on their website that would come complete with current and accurate
pricing. Error checking can be programmed in.
Look at the upside of the web standard. It is cross-platform. It works and
looks the same if you are using Windows, MacOS, or Unix. It is an open system.
You're not stuck with one vendor's proprietary system. It is increadably
fast, and costs around $20 a month for the access to the net. Do you visualize
a future scheme there for us?
--
Jim Butchart
1. 1. Are Hearth Industry Retailers up-to-date?
(Craig Issod, [email protected])
Jim Butchart Said:
>I have a computer committee meeting coming up at the end of the month.
It's going to be an interesting meeting for me. There is so much potential
for computing in our little industry. There is going to be discussion on
data transfer from vendors to dealers and back.
JIm, I also see the possibilities you laid out in your post, but I am very
concerned that the average hearth retailer is unlikely, for ANY reason,
to computerize to any extent. Why do I have this negative attitude ? Because
of the experience of myself and others with hearth retailers....
Two examples, one of which is personal...
1. HearthNet... As you know, we are always looking to expand the retailers
directory on HearthNet. We have offered retailers the oppurtunity to place
their stores, listings, pages, etc on HearthNet for prices ranging from
$295. up....
At this point, we have mailed out over 7,000 mailers and made zillions of
other phonecalls, etc...trying to educate and inform the retailers of the
benefits of web presence. Even so, all these efforts have resulted in VERY
FEW (less than 20 as a result of these mailings) retailers signing up as
a result of these efforts...most of the retailers who are on are there because
of word-of-mouth, or because they took the initiative to find us on the
web and requested a listing.
As a result, much of the future expansion of HearthNet will be on the content
and manufacturers end...luckily, many of these manufacturers are putting
their dealers lists on the web to close the loop !
2. HearthWarming... I signed up for HearthWarming magazine last month...and
had a short discussion with Nancy regarding the number of Hearth Retailers
signing up... Without giving the exact amount, suffice it to say that a
LARGE MAJORITY (not even one out of twenty !) of retailers are not taking
advantage of this type of marketing effort. When you look at a minimum HearthWarming
order (500 copies) and take the co-op into account, the cost to a retailer
is in the area of 500-600 dollars - about the cost of one weeks newspaper
ad.
And you guys know what kind of a bang-up marketing job HearthWarming does
(to dealers)...
So, my biggest concern is that you guys will spend a lot of time figuring
out the right things for retailers to do...and they won't do it.
I guess my advice is for the computer committee to keep this in mind from
the start..that is, an estimate of how many retailers will benefit from
the work being done.
I know - you can lead a horse to water...but can't make them drink !
It appeared from the HPA and HEARTH education stuff, that dealers are ready
for education....maybe more of it should be on subjects like:
1. Marketing - the percentages of gross that should be spent in yellow pages,
newspapers, the web, etc.
2. Computer Expenditures - My accountant once told me that a retail business
like ours should spend as much as 2% of gross on automation.... So, even
for a medium-sized operation of 800K per year..that's up to 16,000 per year
! You could automate nicely for even 1/2 or 1/3 of that (taken over a few
years).
It's great for Hearth Retailers to know what makes a gas valve work, but
of little use if they go out of business due to poor marketing.
Anyway, just my two cents...I too envision a future that when I need an
owners manual for a 1979 Resolute...I'll simply download the PDF file....or
search the text online for what I need.
1. More on Waterstoves
From: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 20 May 97 22:22:51 EDT
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Regarding the input from Central Boiler
Central Boiler, Inc. put out FACTS without detail that would help their
fellow industry members. It's surprising that they make claims about my
business. My company does not sell masonry fireplaces. We recommend open
front fireplaces (wood or gas) only very carefully and rarely. We have sold
heat storage masonry fireplaces of various sorts.
We sell "uncertified central hot air furnaces". We would sell
an EPA version except that no one makes them! Nor are they likely in the
near future, because of difficulty in passing CSA B415 which is more liberal
on larger fireboxes than EPA.
It was interesting to note that EPA has tested the CF17 and "found
it had emission rates lower than conventional uncertified wood stoves".
Were these EPA tests or otherwise? Was this done with a "12 to 36 hour
burn time" in a CF17 vs 6 - 8 hours in a Vigilant or Fisher? Or was
it a CF 17 running wide open vs non EPA stove running wide open? These FACTS
are unexplained in the response.
In our area, the sellers of outdoor furnaces brag about not splitting wood
and long "log length." The CF17 has a firebox measuring 30"
x 36" x 42". With its "water filled baffles" and "high
water capacity," I fail to see how the firebox gets up to the temperature
required (again I'm guessing 1700 F?) for reasonably complete non catalytic
wood burning. In "poking my head in" EPA non cat wood stoves with
fireboxes 8 to 10 times smaller, I see fireboxes surrounded by insulating
firebrick (and sometimes blankets) to reach temperatures to create EPA emission
levels. I am AMAZED that the CF17 could come close! But then I was amazed
about the Clayton 7.1, whose firebox is 1/2 that of the CF17, but is brick
baffled and lined and has no water jacket, and which came close to meeting
it (I'm told).
I now know that a bonfire is not 90% combustion efficient. Could Central
Boiler share information: What is the combustion efficiency of a bonfire?
What is the overall efficiency of the CF17?
We have not sold Jetstreams for 10 years, and have never sold Dumonts -
but they share a commonality of design which may allow them to approach
EPA emissions. They seem likely (to me) to be cleaner burning than ANY central
system - possibly excepting some Tarms. All are heavily insulated and use
forced combustion.
John Crouch, on outdoor furnaces in Vermont, noted that they may have to
be located more than 1000 feet from the lot line. In Ontario at least one
rural insurer requires they be 300 feet from the home, use no rust inhibitor
or antifreeze and be open to the atmosphere. Does this virtually guarantee
short life through rusting, and low overall efficiency through lack of pressure?
As a potential retailer for these furnaces, I see benefits, but I have reservations
and hear little technical answers addressing these. As a responsible retailer
I wish to be part of the solution, not the problem. Dialogue can only help.
Cal Wallis
2. Horizon Pellet Stove Parts
X-Sender: [email protected]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:19:54 -0400
To: [email protected]
From: Russell R Savard
Subject: Re: Help Finding Parts for Eclipse Pellet Units
I need some help in locating parts (Timer Blocks especially!) from anybody
that might have them in re guards to the (Eclipse : Horizon Model) pellet
unit. As you know this manufacturer is long gone, and many people are left
high and dry when it comes to service. We have taken many of these customers
under our wing and are trying our best to keep these units up and running.
We have been having some success finding certain parts (blowers, burn grates
and such) but some electrical components are getting very tough to locate.
Any suggestions? From The Desk Of {Russell R Savard}
Rainbow Pellet Hearth & Home
E-Mail Address
< [email protected] >
Russ, Some folks on the list should know, they helped me out before when
I needed a motor for the above -- Craig
1 More on Blowers
From: Dave Richins
To: "'[email protected]'"
Subject: RE: Hearth Digest 5/9/97 - Blowers
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:35:37 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Roger:
I read with interest your comments on fans and blowers. My background has
been a design engineer in the computer industry. In this industry, we very
often use DC fans for noise control. DC fans are very quiet compared with
AC fans. If compare the noise of DC fans with AC "Blowers" there
is a very significant noise reduction.
For some reason, most of the stove manufactures use blowers. As you pointed
out, the output of the blowers is very large compared with the space for
the air to circulate. This increases the velocity of the air which increases
the noise and whistling.
DC fans are also very safe since they run on 12 VDC which is the same voltage
as an automobile uses. There is absolutely no chance of any shock hazard
if the insulation melts.
The DC fans are also great during power outages like you guys have experienced
during the last year. The DC fans only draw .8 amps for high speed. This
is less than 9 watts. A very simple battery backup can be made by using
2 (two) 6 volt flashligh batteries that can be purchased from a KMart type
store.
According to all manufactures that manufacture both the AC and DC fans,
the life expectancy for DC fans is greater than AC fans. All of the new
fans are brushless and have electronic control.
I did the engineering for the Summit Bay Insert. They have had very good
luck with the DC fans. The manufacture that supplies their fans rate the
life for more than 30,000 hours. If you think about it, when was the last
time that you replaced a heater blower in your car?? These 12 VDC fans have
been around for along time.
You might want to check out their unit. You will find a description of it
at http://www.inconnect.com/~summit/
Thanks for your interest and time.
Dave Richins
[email protected]
The value of "mass" advertising...
by Craig Issod, [email protected]
Some time ago, I posted questioning the value of certain mass media for
hearth advertising. My logic went something like this: I don't care if the
Philadelphia Inquirer (Newpaper) goes to one million readers....all I care
about is how many of my prospective customers see my ad (and respond).
Some of you may remember those joking statistics about how many people in
the US are actually working for a living - the joke subtracts all those
who are on welfare, public assistance, work for the government, army etc...and
comes to the conclusion that only you and I are left !
There is some truth to this. What is the value of a lead for your business?
A great deal of thought is required to calculate this. Let's take some examples:
1. If you placed a $300. ad in your local newspaper and 10 people called
on the phone ($30.00 a lead)..would you be pleased ? How about if 20 people
called ($15.00 a lead) - It's my guess that most retailers on this list
would be more than pleased if they got this response - I sure don't from
most of my advertising.
2. If you placed the $300. ad and one person called, came in and purchased
a installed fireplace ($5,000)...how would that suit you. I'd be very pleased
myself...What if they bought a $2,000 job - That means you spent a whopping
15% of the sale on the advertising... I'd still be pleased as punch (see
below)
The truth is that there is much more to it that the immediate sales and
leads. I'd try to satisfy the one customer who bought, hoping to see their
friends and neighbors later on - these customers would be sent to me at
no charge - $0.00 cost per lead - Good customer service is beyond the scope
of this little diatribe, but you can get some idea of its value by the above.
My Yellow Pages guy came in the other day..and kept swearing up and down
that "The Book" (he says the words with reverence) is the best
value in advertising, and if you are not in there for mega-bucks - well,
you're sunk ! Imagine the look on his face when I told him I saw MANY more
leads from my low-cost Web Presence than I get from my $1400./Month in the
Yellow Book. He went on to explain that this was probably because I advertise
my web site address in the Yellow Page ads (ha ha)..
An article in the paper today talks about the new TV news channels, specifically
MSNBC and the FOX news channels. Recent Nielsen ratings show that, although
over 50 million people have access to these channels, the TOTAL number of
people that see them per day would fit in a baseball stadium (about 50,000)
with room to spare. This is over a 24 hour period, so imagine how few might
be watching it at one time ! One advertising exec said "At present
rates, it would be cheaper to call each and every viewer and ask them to
try your product".
Yet, you still find advertisers on these channels !
The moral of this story is that Hearth Retailers and Manufacturers should
think carefully about placement of their marketing dollars. Traditional
media may not be the right place..each and every expenditure should be analyzed
as to effectiveness and return...don't just do it cause you ,"think"
it's right.
Many media have pumped their prices up beyond what the value is. Sure, co-op
helps, but if an ad is not pulling the 50% discount (from co-op) does no
good either.
It is my opinion that "target marketing" such as Home Shows, Direct
Mailings (New Homeowners, etc), Web Presence and follow-up of existing leads
will benefit most Hearth industry member more than "throwing money
at the wall and hoping some sticks".
The value of a "lead" to a hearth retailer or manufacturer probably
runs from a low of $1.00 (very general, unqualified) to as high as $200.00,
a very broad spectrum. Remember, the "circle of influence" of
this one lead (after you make the sale) comes to you for free. I've always
used a figure of 10 "free" leads for every paid one (over the
years)..so the $200.00 lead doesn't look too bad when it comes down to $20.00
!
I'd love to hear from others as to their advertising and marketing experiences.
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:49:05 -0400 (EDT)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/27/97
I for one spend as little as possible on yellow pages advertising and try
to target my dollars better in season with larger local newspaper ads. Why
spen all the money on yellow page ads that are only working to thier full
potential 4 or 5 months a year. Greg Hopkins A Cozy Fireplace
2. More on Yellow Pages
X-Sender: [email protected]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:20:03 -0400
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected] (Bill Kline)
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/27/97
>I'd love to hear from others as to their advertising and marketing experiences.
Craig,
I run a much lower budget than you do, as I could live nicely on your advertising
budget. But Southern Bell taught me a VERY VALUABLE lesson a couple years
ago. I got behind on my $600 per month yellow pages bill, and they refused
to put me in till it was paid. So I was not in them at all for a year. I
survived, and even prospered a bit that year, so now I buy only a small
in-column ad in each book. Total is under $200 per month. And since I started
doing that, several of my competitors have followed suit. That bullheadedness
over $2400 has ended up costing them a LOT of MONEY.
Bill
Bill Kline
Chim Cheree Chimney Sweep
27 Edwards Lake Dr.
Greer, SC 29651
(864)895-4204
CSIA Cert #257
3. I hear them jungle drums again !
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:51:44 -0400 (EDT)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Jungle Drums
The Jungle Drums are beating...
A specialty hearth retailer just faxed me a copy of a Product Review Meeting
wherein Majestic/Vermont Castings is proposing to partner up to ... The
Home Depot. I can't vouch for the authenticity of the 8 page proposal, but
thought that I better make the rest of you aware of it's existence.
The proposal cover sheet is titled "Home Depot Product Review Meeting
March 1997. Presented to Pat Farrah." The cover letter, signed by Mark
W. Klein, President, (Sorry, I can't even vouch for who the VCFMajestic
president is anymore) proposes to do business with Home Depot and includes
statements such as "By pooling the manufacturing capabilities, purchasing
power, engineering talent and sales expertise of four companies, we can
offer The Home Depot a hearth program that is unmatched by other vendors"
"Underscoring an entrepreneurial spirit that is very similar to The
Home Depot's philosophy, CFM Majestic Company is a manufacturer that leads
it's industry by almost every performance measure." "And, we will
be just as committed to growing with and supporting The Home Depot of today
and The Home Depot of the year 2000."
A sampling of the products and their prices:
MBU36 36" Wood Burning Fireplace $98
MBUC36 36" Circulating Wood Burning Fireplace $113
MBUC42 42" Circulating Wood Burning Fireplace $154
Black Acclaim Wood Burning Stove $690
Green Acclaim Wood Burning Stove $865
D-230N Free Standing Direct Vent Stove Nat Gas $513
Again, I can't vouch for the authenticity of this, but if it is a hoax,
someone has gone to a lot of trouble and is using the same type and format
that VC uses in the price lists they send me (Like the one that shows my
cost for a green Acclaim as $1124.)
Maybe it's also believable because we were all expecting it. Can anyone
out there confirm or deny this?
Skip Stahmer
Sierra Timberline
Grass Valley, CA
webmasters note(Craig Issod, [email protected])...Shee..it ! Skip, if
that doc is reality (and I cannot see why one would make it up), it's quite
a wake-up call. Selling to Home Depot for much lower prices than the retailers
who have made their line a household word ? and then taking back all the
unsold product at the end of the season (you better believe Home Depot ain't
gonna sit on "dogs" that they've paid for). A very interesting
move. Wonder who is gonna deliver them Acclaims...and who is gonna hook
them up..and who is gonna rebuild them after a couple of years? Are these
questions addressed in the doc ?
Anyway, my fax line is 609-654-2114 - I'd LOVE to do some extra reading
in the John tommorrow !
1. More on Blowers
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:46:17 -0400 (EDT)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 5/9/97
I'm late in reading this month's postings, so please pardon my untimely
response to a remonstration about fans from Roger Sanders earlier this month.
To recap, Roger expressed his discontent with noisy fans. He and Craig asked
manufacturers to "get with it"
As a rep for Valor gas fireplaces, I feel compelled to expound on Valor's
technology which negates the need for noisy or troublesome fans. Valors
run so quietly the only way one knows they're on is by the steady, comfortable
heat in the room. 40% or more of the heat from Valors is radiant, heating
directly, rather than having to be exchanged. Because so much of Valors'
heat is radiant, less heat needs to get out through convection. Valor are
engineered to include as much surface area as possible for exhanging the
remaining heat, and they have large convection chambers to pass the heated
air into the room. Rather than turning on and off, Valors modulate, keeping
the space at a constant temperature. Because the space is kept at a constant
temperature, Valors don't need fans to push heat out quickly to accomodate
for temperature drops.
Before I entered the hearth business, I owned stoves with big fans. I unconscously
equated the sound of fans with warmth and comfort. Now, having used Valors
for a couple of years, I've been reconditioned. The sound of silence and
a cozy feeling of warmth are Valor's way of addressing the fan problem.
Thanks for letting me respond,
Gail English
2. more on Yellow Pages Advertising
From: "Christie Martindale"
To: "Craig Issod"
Subject: Yellow Pages Advertising
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:18:11 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
It's that time of year again. The yellow pages add guys will come around
seeking my advertising dollars. It was getting out of hand. All the dealers
here was placing a 1/2 page or bigger add! One dealer had a full color photo
on the back cover! Talk about bucks! I decided to see what would happen
if I moved my add from the stove section to the fireplace section. The was
no change in sales. The next year I cut the add in half, once again no change.
The current book has the smallest add yet! My sales are up. I think you
have to be listed, but I don't believe that the add has to be huge.
A few years ago an independent phone book was introduced to our area. I
really like the add rep. he was a nice guy. I asked him why we were constantly
being pushed to increase our add size or to add features like color and
what not. He told me that he only gets a commission on increases! In other
words, if you run the same add or a smaller add, he doesn't get paid for
the sales call! So now you know why they are always pushing you to run bigger
adds.
Christie Martindale
Bishop Woodstove
3. Comment on the Jungle Drums
From: Susan and Craig
To: "'Craig Issod'"
Subject: RE: Hearth Digest 5/28/97
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:32:38 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
>From Crazy Craig @ B & K 2
Remember Earth Stove?
They wanted to have every store in every town selling their stoves. Then
... they went to mass merchants. The only dealers I know who would sell
their products today, are the "young and dumb" ... being new kids
on the block and not knowing their past history with the mass merchants.
If what you and I have both heard is true about Majestic/Vermont Castings,
then everyone who handles their product, everyone who has made these companies
WHO they are today, should cancel all early buys. All you will be doing
is educating the public on the stove and they will go to Home Depot to purchase
it!!. Further more, they will come right back into your establishment, interrupt
you in a sales presentation, and ask you how to install the stove they bought
at Home Depot. Why? Because Home Depot does not have the answers on how
to install!!!!
It will probably take about one or two seasons, before the Earth Stove syndrome
will set in.
We must protect our industry! Buy ... buy ... buy ... from manufactures
who protect