4/4/97 - Back to List archives - Back to
Club House
1. Wake-up to Education2. Log Making Machine
4/8/97
1. Database Beta-Test 2. Some Good Humor3. CO and Unvented Appliances
4/13/97
1. Canadian Discussion Forum2. Responses to Essay on Macintosh
4/14/97
1. CO in Vent-Free2. The stupid webmaster asked the wrong question !
4/17/97
1. CO in Vent-Free2 DCS Grills in Costco3. Neat Software for Network Internet
Access
4/21/97
1. Vermont Castings Parts2. More on CO2 inside the home
4/23/97
1. Amount of CO2 in Vent-Free2.High Altitude Testing for OEMs
4/24/97
1. Against the vent-free phobia.
4/28/97
Internet News....then1. Vent-Fress in the Humid Northwest2. Love my Mac3.
Think outside the box..the internet can save you (or make you) big $$$
1. Wake-up to Education
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 13:13:39 -0800
From: Susan Kalish
Organization: Hearth Products Association
Subject: Education
Kudos to Christie!
As education director for HPA, I want to commend Christie Martindale for
her wonderful wake up call to retailers. I couldn't have said it better.
Her words, "if you do not educate and keep current in marketing, financial,
computer and business trends, your business is going to die", should
be a sure reminder that keeping challenged, motivated, learning new trends
and implementing new ideas is the only way to operate a successful business.
That is why HPA's Long Range Planning Committee recommended, and the HPA
Board of Directors voted, to invest in education. That is why HPA hired
staff and has expended funds to develop programs directed especially for
HPA's retailers. The education programs offered thus far have been extremely
well received, the FIREWRIGHT gas training video and workbook, the FIREWRIGHT
class, the "Resources for Retailers" section in the newsletter
and the extensive EXPO '97 education program. HPA will be releasing within
the next few months a professional sales training program to educate your
sales personnel in proven sales techniques.
These programs and products represent your dues dollar at work. The programs
are designed specifically for hearth specialty retailers. Take advantage
of them. Let HPA know what else you need to help you in your business.
The HPA Education Committee, composed of HPA members who have extensive
experience in the industry, will be working closely with staff to direct
the development of additional programs and materials. The members of the
committee and I would love to hear from you. Get involved in lifelong learning....
Sue Kalish HPA Education Director [email protected]
2. Log Making Machine
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 97 10:22:08 -0800
From: Bill Rickett
Organization: Dynamo, Ltd.
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Logmaking Machine
We have an Acosta logmaking machine for sale. It will turn your
waste wood chips & sawdust into 4 inch logs of any length for
burning in fireplaces and campfires. Like new and very reasonable
in price.
End of Digest - Send posts to [email protected]
1. Database Beta-Test
Craig Issod ([email protected])
I've spent some time creating a searchable database of all the questions
that have been posed to me by email over the past year. I'd like for members
of this list to "Beta Test" it by going to the site and banging
on it for awhile. I'd also like any suggestions for improving this upcoming
feature..... Please go to:
http://hearth.mosquito.com/Search.html and bang away.
2. Some Good Humor
X-Sender: [email protected]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 22:02:50 -0500
To: [email protected]
From: [email protected]
Subject: The Daily Joke - Friday
>This here is the WV Redneck's Guide to Computer Lingo
>
>LOG ON: Making the woodstove hotter
>LOG OFF: Don't add no more wood
>MONITOR: Keepin an eye on that woodstove
>DOWNLOAD: Gettin the farwood ofn the truk
>MEGA HERTZ: When yer not keerful gettin that farwood
>downloaded
>FLOPPY DISK: Whatca git from tryin to carry too much farwood
>RAM: That thar thang whut splits th farwood
>HARD DRIVE: Gettin home in th winter taim
>PROMPT: Whut th mail ain't in th winter taim
>WINDOWS: Whut to shut when its cold outside
>SCREEN: Whut to shut when its blak fly season
>BYTE: Whut them dang flys do
>CHIP: Muchies fer th TV
>MICRO CHIP: Whuts left in th munchie bag
>INFRARED: Whur th left over munchies go, Fred eats em
>MODEM: Whatca did to the hay fields
>DOT MATRIX: Ol Dan Matrix's wife
>LAP TOP: Whur th kitty sleeps
>KEYBOARD: Whur ya hang th dang keys
>SOFTWARE: Them dang plastik forks and knifs
>MOUSE: What eats th grain in th barn
>MAIN FRAME: Holds up th barn ruf
>PORT: Fancy Flatlander Wine
>ENTER: Northern fer c'mon in y'all
>RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY: When ya caint member whut ya paid for
>yer new rifle when yore wife asks.
>
_____________________________________
Visit the Emporium
We Lite Up Your Hearth's Desires
http://www.weyrkeep.com
1-800-722-FIRE
-----------------------------------------------------------------
" Dragons Breathe Best Together
Forge a Stronger Fire"
_____________________________________
3. CO and Unvented Appliances
Craig Issod ([email protected])
Does anyone know of any concerns about the CO output of unvented appliances
? Are there any standards for this ? Is the output of these excessive --
IN laymans terms..for instance, a log buring at 39K BTU is equiv to how
many people exhaling, etc..... Had a discussion recently with some industry
folks and this point was brought up...I admit to being completely out of
the loop on this one... enlighten us...
Craig
Polling for a Canadian hearth topics discussion group.
If you are interested in participating in a Canadian newsletter similar
to the Hearthlist, a gathering and exchange of ideas, interests, concerns
in a Canadian context, primarily with emphasis toward issues around wood
heat, but willing to talk about all hearth industry questions and concerns,
please E-Mail to Pat Kerr [email protected] I have agreed to be Executive
Editor of WETT Ink, the quarterly printed newsletter of the Wood Energy
Technical Training group and am looking for input on what is news, what
questions are worth exploring and what kinds of coverage of Canadian hearth
industry issues and events would be of interest to Canadians.
For now,
Pat
Brodie Road, Dalkeith, Ontario
[email protected]
*************************************************
That which is timeless is found now.
*************************************************
2. Responses to Essay on Macintosh - Craig Issod ([email protected])
I expected, and received, pro and con replies to my posting on the Macs
history and ease-of-use. It was not my intention to start the classic Mac
vs W95 discussion, just to set out some facts which many people may not
be aware of...
Here's some snippets of comments....
This is getting tiresome! Why do you find it necessary to
defend your beloved Mac so much? Who gives a rip what machine you think
is so godlike. ( editors comment - I didn't think my post had this kind
of tone !)
You're right on the money in everything you said about OUR MACS:)
In response to your latest essay re Mac vs etc., well, I don't mind your
posting, but I may not read it.
And this longer response from Roger Sanders:
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:46:22 +0000
From: Roger Sanders
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Craig Issod
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 4/11/97
Hi Craig,
Youre right. Most of the things that Mac users have taken for granted for
the last 10 years, the MS-DOS users didnt even dream of having. Things like:
Networking, Audio, Video and high speed SCSI built in, Plug and Play, Drag
and Drop, Copy/Paste, Icons on the Desktop, Windows and Menu bars, a Mouse,
a stable operating system, two way compatibility with almost all hardware
and software, Font/printer/screen compatibility, What You See Is What You
Get, Multi-tasking, Mult-application use, Chooser, Easy to start up and
run, the list goes on and on....
Bill Gates has made billions by bringing these alleged new and great features
to his archaic, MS-DOS world, years after they were standard on MACs. Nine
out of ten Windows 95 users have had no idea that these features, and many
more, were always on Macs. They dont care either.
Reality is that Windows 95 is finally close enought to the MAC-OS in its
ease of use. MS-DOS based Windows 95 machines are now good enough for most
people and businesses!
Reality is that you can buy a quality Pentium 100 color laptop for $1000
but the equivalent Mac is still $2500. We just bought one and its a great
little computer.
Reality is that you can buy a great Pentium or Cyrix 166 desktop computer
for under $1000 and the equivalent Mac clone is over $1500. (166s run databases
faster than a Motorola 604e 200)
Reality is that MS-DOS based computer users will never switch to Macs now
that Windows 95 gives them so much of the MAC-OS. They wouldnt even switch,
back when they were running straight MS-DOS with all that tortured, text
based confusion and garbage, so why will they switch now?
Reality is that in 1997, Macs are still much easier to use. Every person
Ive ever talked to that uses both operating systems, like we do, also says
that Macs are much better.
Reality is that anyone buying their first computer or major upgrade today
should buy a Mac (or clone) if they want to be quickly productive.
How about some stuff about the future:
Craig, reality is that the Mac is rapidly dying in spite of its greatness!
So did Buddha. The much superior MAC-OS will soon die, but it will obviously
be one of the parents of a universal operating system with a common chip
design. The MAC-OS will then live like Buddha.
The Mac Power PC chip, as great as it is, will also soon die. It looks like
the chip makers will all be building a common chip soon. IBMs Crystal Core
may make everyones chips obsolete. Apple (if they survive at all as a separate
company) will likely be forced to use the common chip and will build for
a very limited market.
The MAC-OS System 7 and and Mac computers will certainly be very productive
for another 10 years.
Keep up the non-stove stuff like this on HearthNet. It does relate to our
businesses.
Craig, you can be political too. A little liberalism can do us all some
good, or at least give us some entertainment :-).
Roger Sanders
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Editors Note:
Altho I agree with most of what Roger says, the stuff about IBM's crystal
core, the Mac Operating system dying (it is actually progressing and evolving),
and the prices of Macs may need some clarification.
IBM is the manufacturer of most PowerPC chips, and has ownership of much
of the design. Chips over 300MHZ are already being sent to developers, with
much faster ones on the drawing boards.... IBM and Motorola have already
licenced the Apple Operating System (MacOS), and Motorola shipped over 100,000
of these "Apple Clones" in the first quarter they were available.
IBM is already selling a neat portable (the Comet) in Japan running MacOS...
As far as prices, when it comes to Desktop Machines, current Macs and Mac
Clones are starting at about $1150.00 for a 160MHZ machine... Maybe $200
more than a PC, but usually of higher quality construction and design than
the super low-end PCS... And if one values their time, the $200. should
not make the difference. Mcc Warehouse is selling a 132MHZ Powercomputing
machine (604 processor/equal to Pentium PRO) for $1099. Roger is correct
that Apple does not have a very low-end powerbook (portable)... I get around
this by purchasing the "old" (discontinued or almost discontinued)
models, which more than suit my needs.
I do agree that operating systems are "coming together", and the
Net is a big reason.... Apples next operating system is UNIX based (NEXT),
and will be able to tackle the online future in a superior way. Yes, all
the advances apple created (windows, quicktime movies, etc) will be rolled
into ALL or most software. For instance, at last weeks NAB (National Association
of Broadcasters) convention, Intel and Apple were co-operating on the display
and use of Apple's Quicktime (Movie and Sound compression) technology....Intel
Folks in Apple's Booth !
I also agree that Apple will probably not survive as a seperate company.
They will probably enter into a partnership with Sun Microsystems or another
large player.....10 Billion in yearly revenues just doesn't cut it in the
world of hi-tech anymore....
Roger is right that todays Macs, running System 7, will be good for 10 years
or so...Also, these same Macs are capable of running the NEXT generation
Apple System, so they could go on much longer....However, reality is that
most enterprises use their computers for a 2-6 year period before recycling
them. I am just now retiring my 1989 Mac IIsi computers...Gave one to a
friend to use to surf the net - the other will act as my stores phone answering
voice mail.... until it dies (if ever)..
I'll end the discussion for now..Maybe later I'll establish an interactive
area in the clubhouse for this sort of update....or, it may fit into a chat
room format also...
Craig
1. CO in Vent-Free
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:48:10 -0400
From: [email protected] (Mike Scarland)
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 4/8/97
To: Craig Issod
Response to Item #3 - 3. CO and Unvented Appliances
Craig Issod ([email protected])
All appliance Standards require testing of appliances to ensure that they
have
acceptable operating characteristics, including levels of CO produced. The
standard which covers unvented fireplaces is the Z21.11.2 Unvented Room
Heaters (no CGA equivalent).
These units are allowed in many States, and covered in the National Fuel
Gas
Code, and three model building codes (CABA, BCCI, and BOCA).
In Canada, B.C. allows their use with some restrictions. No other provinces
presently allow their use.
Their has been considerable debate regarding these units. However, as they
are not available for sale in our Province, I do not participate in this
Standard and have no experience with their operation.
I can tell you that the CO levels allowed in Vented Heaters Standards are
based on extensive field experience and lab testing which takes into
account factors such as minimal air exchanges in the residence, etc.
Regarding you comment on "equiv to how many people exhaling".
CO, unlike
CO2, is not something that is normally found in exhaled breath, although
the carboxyhemogloben level of smokers is typically elevated above 'normal'
(remember that CO can sometimes be found in ambient due to local sources
such as traffic, etc.).
I would suggest contacting GAMA, and ask for a contact from the Unvented
Alliance group for further info, or IAS Cleveland - Standards for the
allowable levels.
2. The stupid webmaster asked the wrong question !
Craig Issod ([email protected])
My thanks to Mike for the response above...but asked the wrong question
! (My excuse--I fell asleep in 9th grade chemistry class).... I wanted to
know about the output of CARBON DIOXIDE (o2) from Vent-Free gas appliances.....
Is there a standard for this?
Compare this amount to people breathing in the room, etc.
Sorry for my ignorance..
Craig
end of digest...
1. CO in Vent-Free
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:17:35 -0400 (EDT)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 4/14/97
Craig,
The amount of CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) being emitted from a vent free heater
is
nearly the same as the amount from vented heaters with the same rating
(except that the CO2 is circulated into the room). Each molecule of methane
(the major component of natural gas) contains one atom of Carbon and nearly
all of the carbon is oxidized into CO2. Some carbon is used up in forming
trace amounts of CO, aldehydes, unburned hydrocarbons, etc. that are also
emitted. However, the concentration of those components are usually at the
ppm level and only use up a small fraction of the available Carbon.
Propane releases more CO2 per molecule than methane because it has 3 Carbon
atoms per molecule. Each cubic foot of methane releases 1 cubic foot (under
standard conditions) of CO2 and a cubic foot of propane releases 3 cubic
feet
of CO2. This might lead you to think that propane releases much more CO2
than methane. That is partially true. However, the heat released by burning
one cubic foot of propane is much higher than when burning methane. I have
not done the math but I think you end up with slightly more CO2 released
per
BTU/hr when burning propane than when burning natural gas.
There are no requirements on the emission of CO2 in the Z21.11.2 standard.
However, the limit on the rate of vent free appliances in effect controls
the emissions of CO2 (the limit on the rate of vent free appliances is 40,000
BTU/hr).
Samir Barudi
Superior Fireplace Co.
----From Craig Issod, [email protected] ---
Dear Samir, thanks for the info...you really know your stuff. It appears
that the bottom line is that there is no standard for CO2. Could we have
some sort of explaination, in laymans terms, about the quantity released
compared to other common sources of CO2. I know we exhale the stuff, but
am not familiar with other sources of CO2.
The real question I am considering is " Is there any problem or potential
problem with prolonged burning of vent-frees in a confined space (a home)"
There has been much debate over this. For instance, we always told our cutomers
that these were meant for a few hours a day. When we called the factory
they said "Oh no ! You could use them 24 hours a day if you want".
As usual, the truth is hard to gleam from this type of statement....hence
my question. I like to be able to answer our cutomers concerns and questions
in a truthful manner.
2 DCS Grills in Costco
From: "J. A. Harman"
To: "Hearth Digest"
Subject: DCS BBQ not a specialty item anymore!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:44:39 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
I just saw a Costco mail order catalog. They had the 27" stainless
steel
bbq on a cart with rear burner and rotis. for just under $1500. Thats
about $400 to $500 below retail. They had one other model and the patio
heater. The patio heater was about $300 below retail. Guess it is not a
specialty item anymore.
Thought you all would like to know.
J.A. Harman
3. Neat Software for Network Internet Access
From: Craig Issod, [email protected]
I just installed a neat piece of software on my "mini-network"
at home. You see, it's been getting out of hand here with the net surfing
and phone lines. In addition, I hooked up a full-time server computer to
the net..so our network now consists of three machines ...each with a seperate
modem !
This software, called Internet Gateway (for MacOS, altho I'm certain the
type of SW is available for other platforms), installs on one computer....then,
any computers on the network can access the net thru the one "Gateway"
computer. Now, when Martha, David or I want to surf the net, we don't have
to "dial in" anymore, we simply open Netscape or Eudora (mail)
and go... what a luxury...plus, we are all using only ONE modem and phone
line.
This is great for an office setup, because only one computer needs a modem
and hookup to the net. Then, when any user on the net wants to surf, the
gateway computer will dial up and connect to the net. When you are done,
it hangs up the connection. So, the whole office can have email access for
the price of one internet account ( and a few extra mailboxes).
If anyone needs this sorts of solution, check out http://www.vicomtech.html
1. Vermont Castings Parts
From: [email protected] Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 22:18:35 EDT Mime-Version:
1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Vermont Castings parts
Craig, We just got turned down from VC for parts for a Vigilant (air horn)
and Resolute (1 of the double doors). We were told that they have decided
to "not make parts for any stove more than 10 years old". As far
as I know the Resolute double door was still built less than 10 years ago.
Anyway I guess that the idea of fixing up your stove and keep it going -
like we have always told people - is untrue. Seems to me to be more of this
"consumption vs conservation" that exemplifies the gas / wood
dichotomy. Any confirmation or denials of this? Cal Wallis -------------------------------------
Reply from Craig Issod, [email protected] - I agree with you, Cal...At
our store we have ususally been able to find parts for stove built more
than 10 years ago. When I owned the HS TARM importing business, we were
able to provide parts for boilers 15 years old and older ....the current
owners still do the same. Existing owners are some of the best prospects
for new appliances, so it can make sense in more ways than one.
That said, there has to be a cut-off date for samoe of these parts and stove.
If VC sells 5 of a particular part/year they cannot be expected to continue
mass production. Perhaps they should contract with an outside source (like
Woodman Associates) that specializes in hard-to-find parts. This could benefit
all involved...
2. More on CO2 inside the home
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:49:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: [email protected] (Unverified)
Mime-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] From: [email protected] (Ronald
Telfer) Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 4/17/97
Subject:CO2 in Vent Free appliances/Samir Barudi-Superior Fireplace Co.
Hi Guys, Thanks to Samir for his coverage of gas emissions from vent free
heaters into the room space, there is also virtually half the volume of
H2O (moisture) as CO2 gas produced with each of the natural gases mentionned.
This could be a problem in some areas, due to condensation on colder surfaces,
however moist hot air warms much better than dry hot air. There is concern
in Canada about the results of CO2 emissions contributing to the Greenhouse
Gas Effect and thereby assisting in Global Warming. A recent initiative
by Energy and Natural Resources Department (October 1996) is encouraging
the use of wood, a renewable resource which is also CO2 neutral, as a source
of home heating. Canada has recently been rated as the highest producer
of greenhouse gases per capita among the G-7 nations, and this is one effort
by the Ottawa Government to alleviate these emissions. Wood is renewable,
fossil fuels are not. When wood is renewing itself, i.e. trees are growing,
they absorb CO2 and convert it to O2 (oxygen), which we breathe and use
in combustion to heat our homes or drive our automobiles.
Ronald from RONJAN Inc, home of RONJAN Radiant Firegrates - the HOTTEST
things in fireplaces and the world's BEST woodburning fireplace grate.
From: [email protected] (Mike Scarland) Subject: Re: Hearth Digest
4/17/97 To: [email protected] Cc: [email protected] (John Marshall)
More on 'CO' in Vent-Free
You were asking about about the quantity of CO2 released compared to other
'common' sources of CO2. Carbon Dioxide Generators are used frequently in
applications such as greenhouses. Our Provincial Code requires that it does
not exceed 5000 ppm (or 0.5%) per sections 6.3.3 and 7.9.1(d).
As mentioned in my last note on Hearth Digest, your best option for this
one is to read some of the research presently being done on this subject,
as there are really no simple answers to your 'larger' question on how this
impacts the residence.
For example, the Development of Sizing Guidelines for Vent-Free Supplemental
Heating Products by AGAResearch (GAMA & GRI) discusses the following references
that could be used to judge CO2 build-up:
:OSHA - 5000ppm on an 8 hr average :Canadian Federal Provincial Advisory
Committee - 3500ppm for long term exposure in residences :ASHRAE - 1000ppm
as a surrogate for odor in establishing ventilation standards (not a health
effect)
However, it is not as easy as simply measuring the CO2 being produced by
the appliance (eg. 4.5% dilute), and comparing it to these levels. Obviously,
the ambient is going to vary considerably depending on factors such as the
tightness of the structure, it's size, the hours of continuos use etc.
In addition, it is important to understand the impact of other products
of combustion such as H2O vapor, when making your own judgment on this.
end of list....
1. Amount of CO2 in Vent-Free
From: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:18:51 -0400 (EDT)
To: [email protected]
Subject: CO2 Concentrations
Dear Craig,
I finally found a source for the imformation you asked for. The Code of
Federal Regulation - Labor (29) Parts 1900 to 1910.999 contains some information
on an average person's breathing rate and lung capacity. They indicate that
an average person at rest breaths around 5 liters of air in each minute.
They also indicate that the partial pressure of CO2 in the exhaled air is
around 40 mm Hg. This calculates to slightly over 1/2 of a cubic foot of
CO2 being released by an average human each hour. A 20,000 BTU/hr vent free
appliance using natural gas releases nearly 18 cubic feet of CO2 per hour
into the room or the equivalent of around 35 people.
The above a rough estimates. I also did not want to bore you with the details
of the calculations. If you have any questions on the calculation details
please let me know.
Samir Barudi
Superior Fireplace Co.
______________________________________________________
(webmasters note--from Craig Issod, [email protected])
Wow ! Thanks, that's exactly the type of explaination that us laymen can
understand. Sort of confirms the talk about the 40,000 BTU Vent-Frees being
excessive...I mean, that's the equiv of 70 people in the room...
2.High Altitude Testing for OEMs
From: Bob Borgeson
To: "'[email protected]'"
Cc: JimH
Subject: High Altitude Testing for OEMs
The AGAResearch Division of Energy International, Inc. is considering the
construction of a new facility to serve the appliance industry. The facility
is an environmental test chamber. The facility is currently planned to be
12' wide x 15' long x 12' high. It is set apart from other test chambers
because it is a fully ventilated facility allowing the interior air quality
to be maintained in the presence of equipment emitting effluents such as
the products of combustion. The range of operating conditions are as follow:
Barometric pressure (altitude) - site pressure to 10,000' equiv. Chamber
temperature - 45 to 140F (-40F w/limited ventilation) Combustion air temperature
- -40 to 140F Humidity - 10 to 90% RH Fuel gases - natural gas, propane,
butane/air, special mixes Electric power - 115, 220, 480 (single and three
phase) The facility would be under automatic control and be equipped with
a high speed data acquisition system. Expert AGAR staff operate the facility
and all AGAR staff are immediately available for consultation regarding
the analysis of performance deficiencies and their solution.
If this activity is within your companies field of interest we would appreciate
a representative of your organization filling out the following questionnaire
so that we may accurately address your requirements. Please respond directly
to Jim Hatfield ([email protected]) or Bob Borgeson ([email protected]).
Environmental Chamber Market Study
Company -
Product line -
Date of response -
Name/e-mail of respondent -
Telephone number -
Does your company conduct performance testing that involves variations in
environmental conditions ?
Temperature range -
Humidity range -
Altitude range -
Is some or all of this testing done at third party facilities ?
Where is it typically done ?
What is the average incidence of this outside testing (times/yr or #'s of
units or $'s expended) ?
Who is the decision maker in your company with regard to where this work
is done ?
Would doing this work in Cleveland be more or less desirable than your present
site ?
Would being able to conduct extended tests immediately after safety certification
by International Approvals Services(IAS) at the same location be considered
an advantage ?
Would your company be more likely to use IAS as your approval agency if
an environmental test chamber was available at the same site?
Is conducting extended environmental tests on a fast track basis important
?
Is having alternate fuels (propane, butane/air, special mixes) available
important ?
Would you like to test your equipment under a single set of conditions (temperature,
humidity, altitude, fuel type) or be able rapidly determine performance
over a wide range of environmental conditions ?
Is it very important for you to enter the market with a product that will
operate properly in all environmental conditions ?
Do you believe environmental testing of selected appliances will product
better product __ , better reliability___, reduced warranty expense____,
improved image____, increased market share____, increased profits____ ?
Do you support the idea of AGAR offering this service ?
Would you seriously consider being a customer of this service ?
Other comments -
Thank you for your time!
Bob Borgeson
AGAResearch
Our WWW sites:
http://www.energyint.com
http://www.gasweb.org/gasweb/agar
enf of post....
In response to:
> cubic foot of CO2 being released by an average human each hour. A 20,000
> BTU/hr vent free appliance using natural gas releases nearly 18 cubic
feet
> of CO2 per hour into the room or the equivalent of around 35 peo
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:49:56 -0500
From: Bob Rooke
Reply-To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 4/23/97
I read with boredom almost daily worries about massive amounts of co2 or
other dangerous gasses emitted from vent-free gas logs and space heaters,
and their possible long term effects on consumers health. If my personal
experiences can help some of the hearthlists subscribers overcome this vent-free
phobia, then read on. Naysayers and profits of doom feel free to flame me,
but I know first hand what personal experience has taught me.
My personal experience with selling vent-free products goes back almost
20 years, and my father has sold them since 1964. In Texas, and most of
the south, vent-free gas space heaters have been used to heat homes since
natural gas has been around. In cities like mine (Fort Worth), I would estimate
the number of households that use vent-free space heaters for their primary
heat source to be around 20%, with an additional 20% using them for supplemental
heat (I am in this category). I know of ABSOLUTELY NO studies showing increased
respiratory disease or any other health problems that could be related to
vent-free product from these areas of the country with high usage of vent-free
product. It would stand to reason that after 75 years of high usage, my
part of the country would have a higher mortality rate from respiratory
problems, or higher rates of illness due to vent-free heaters, and some
kind of studies would be done to find out why we were all getting sick and
dying from respiratory illnesses, or whatever. But we aren't getting sick,
we don't have a higher rate of mortality than other parts of the country
where vent-free is less used, and vent-free is not the demon some make it
out to be.
I sell (retail only) vent-free gas space heaters, and vent-free gas logs.
I use a Rinnai vent-free gas space heater in my den for supplemental heat
and am very glad to have it. I have 5 children and have no problem with
the heater being on at all times in my house. I was raised in a house with
space heaters as was my father, and his father. In all of our years selling
products we have had no problems with vent-free heaters that were properly
maintained. I have heard of deaths from vent-free products, but in these
few cases they were improperly used, and had no oxygen depletion sensors.
Like the case a few years ago in Oklahoma where a mother shut her kids in
a room with an old non-o.d.s. space heater and put towels under the crack
of the door to seal out the cold. A horrible story, but NOT the fault of
the heater, the fault was with that poor mother not following instructions.
I have heard of countless more deaths by vented gas heaters that were improperly
vented or had cracked combustion chambers with Carbon Monoxide (far more
dangerous) filling up the rooms.
I challenge anyone to give me documented proof of a vent-free space heater
or gas log made since 1983 (when O.D.S. was made mandatory) causing a death
when properly installed and used according to the manufacturers directions.
Many in the hearth industry have a phobia about vent-free because they have
no experience with it. Just because it's new to you, doesn't make it new.
It's been around for years, and it's safe. Learn from the big boys in the
vent-free business; ask Martin Industries, Desa International, Rinnai America
why they would risk selling potentially harmful products year after year,
opening themselves up to horribly costly legal battles if these phobias
about vent-free were true. None of these multi-million or even billion dollar
corporations need to produce this product to stay alive. It is a small part
of their business, but they are providing safe quality products to fill
the ever growing demand.
I encourage the hearth industry to not only sell, but promote vent-free
gas products. They're proven safe with decades of use in the south, and
they'll also benefit your customers with safe cost effective gas heaters
that are highly efficient.
Sorry to write a book, but I felt the need.
Bob Rooke Fort Worth Hearth & Home, Inc.
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webmasters note:
Bob, don't take it personal..Samir works for Superior, a premier manufacturer
of Vent-Free products. He is a Chemical Engineer and knows what is going
on.
His facts are