4/3/96
1. Wood Stove Tester Faked Certifications
4/3/96
1. MAD HOUR - From Craig Issod
4/4/96
1. EPA Scandal...more
2. EPA Scandal...Response
4/5/96
1. Brad Ward askes about EPA scandal
2. Travis Industries Press Release
4/6/96
1. Stop Whining, Craig, and get to work..by Roger Sanders
2. Happy Easter
4/7/96
1. Distribution Channels - By Tim Nissen
2.EPA bogus testing panic - bt Jim Butchart
3.VC/CFM, etc...by Jim Butchart
4/6/96
1 Angry at VC for Fireplace Distributor Policy
2. Any thoughts on improving Hearthwarming magazine ?
4/9/96
1. Looking to the future
2. Integrity of manufacturers
4/10/96
1. More on VC and FP Distributors
2. Travis and Loyalty 3
3.Thanks from Hearthwarming
4. It's like childbirth - dealing with manuf.
4/10/96 #2
1. Reply about HPA
2.Boycott Trade Show or Alternative Trade Show ?
3. Opinion on above...
4/11/96
1 Confused about Idea (Revolution)
2. Affiliates power, and more - Forging a stong alliance
4/11/96
1. Letter from the prez - Travis Industries
2. Forget Mass Merchants - How about the guys around the block ?
3. Dan Melcom (mellow in Vermont)
4/12/96
1. VC Policy, once and for all
4/15/96
1. Is Richard Wright Listening ? and You tell'm , Tim
2. manufacturers that sell to the mass merchandisers
3. HearthNet announces "Help from the Hearth", a program to help
those less fortunate
4. Manufacturers who sell to mass merchants- again
4/16/96
1. "Help from the Hearth" hits close to home.
2. Virtual Mood Expressions
3. More on VC, Lack of Communication, Buying Groups, Etc.
4. No God given right
04/03/96
1. Wood Stove Tester Faked Certifications (submitted by Rodger Sanders,
posted by Craig Issod)
Hearth Digest 4/3/96 1. Wood Stove Tester Faked Certifications (submitted
by Rodger Sanders, posted by Craig Issod) From " The Oregonian"
Wed, April 3, 1996 The owner of a Washington testing lab has pleaded guilty
to falsely certifying at least 10 woodstove models. The company ,Environmental
Systems Performance, indicated that they falsified 10 certification teats
during a two year period that ended in December 1994. These falsifications
allowed the models to meet the tough Washington state standards. William
Nowak, the labs owner, sais that he thought the test results might have
been thrown off by sloppy lab work or other testing problems, so instead
of redoing the tests, he simply altered the results. Major Industry brand
names are among the affected stove models, but stove manufacturers are not
charged with any complicity in the illegal acts. _______________________________________________________________________
end of digest Send posts to [email protected]
04/03/96
1. MAD HOUR - From Craig Issod
1. MAD HOUR - From Craig Issod 1. I'm so mad, and I have to vent, so forgive..first
of all, I already wrote out this whole MAD HOUR note, and then my computer
froze, meaning I have to do it again. This time, I'll be brief. A. $20,000
! A note came from a customers insurance company today asking me for the
20 grand they paid to fix a ventless sooting situation at the customer home.
I should mention that this is the first action of thie type our store has
seen in 17 years (and over 20 million $$) worth of hearth products sold.
Is this the tip of the iceberg ? What about that "clean heat"
the ventless makers promised ? B. VC, etc. - the saga continues..VC opened
up a Hardware store 6 miles away from our store, telling us they were "wholesale
to builders" and "they will only have the wood fireplace and the
gas logs". Well, our snoop went over there today, and, lo and behold,
the ventless product was on the floor, they were selling retail, and they
are discounting quite heavily....Our rep is still trying to get a dating
order from us (rumor says VC is having problems getting dating out of a
lot of dealers...duh ! , I wonder why ?).....He's now taken to using subtle
threats like" Well, if you can;t sell enough of our product...well,
i'll stop here before I really get myself going....OH, one thing, we made
$$ before we ever had VC (we drove the VC dealer who opened up near us out
of business), and we'll do well if they ever leave us...only difference
is that they won;t share in our success. C. HPA, AGA, etc. - Well, this
one is a long story, but the "old" subject of whether HPA is truly
a specialty dealers org is popping up again. OF course, many of you who
are "in the know" have already confided to me that "in no
way is it a dealers org". From my viewpoint, the health of the industry
seems to be faultering....many of the manufacturers at the show complained
of terrible sales this year..same from dealers.... Are the efforts of our
trade groups STRONGLY headed in the direction of improving this situation,
or are we too mired in politics to make a difference. I don't profess to
know the answer, as I'm not "on the inside", but the rumors I
hear can make me wonder. Your thoughts (either private or public) on the
above are welcomed. ________________________________ end of digest
04/04/96
1. EPA Scandal...more
2. EPA Scandal...Response
1.From: "CHRISTIE MARTINDALE" To: [email protected]
Subject: TEST RESULTS HOWDY, WHAT'S THE RUMORS, FACTS ETC ON THE EMISSIONS
TESTING SCANDEL. HOW DO WE RESPOND, AS AN INDUSTRY? dO WE RUSH OUT ON OUR
SHOWROOM AND PULL PRODUCT OFF OF DISPLAY? WHAT DO YOU THINK? [email protected]
2. IN reference to #1 above, Craig Issod ([email protected]) replies:
No one has to remove stoves from the store..except perhaps Washington State
dealers. Please note the following quotes from the EPA NEWS Release. "EPA
believes it's a small percentage of the 1.2 million stoves made since 1988"
" As far as the EPA is concerned, owners of Woodstoves that were falsely
certified may continue to use them" "EPA is taking steps to determine
the implications of the false certificationd and to ascertain if the affected
models meet federal woodstove emission standards." And the news release
from Washington State Office of Public Information " Some wood stove
models labeled as certified will need to re retested to see if they meet
federal and Washington State wood stove emission standards. Owners of the
stoves may continue to use them except during indoor burn bans called by
local air pollution control agencies" " Until the stoves are retested,
they will be considered uncertified and may not be legally sold in Washington"
And my take: Since the makers have not been named in this criminal action,
it appears that it will not have a large national effect. Some of the models
listed have already been superceeded by newer models in the same product
lines, therefore ending any problem. I have heard that the manufacturers
have to quickly (30 days) re-test the stoves which are affected. It is also
my opinion that these stoves ( I am personally familiar with many of them)
are very clean burning, and will pass the National Standards. As far as
the Washington State specs, these are tougher, and I can't speak for them.
______________________________________________________________________________
04/05/96
1. Brad Ward askes about EPA scandal
2. Travis Industries Press Release
To: From: [email protected] (Craig Issod) Subject: Hearth Digest 4/5/96
Cc: Bcc: hearth,hearth1,hearth2,hearth3,temp X-Attachments:
1. Dear Craig, I have asked (friend) to inital a reply to you in regards
to the message that he had, since I do not have your e@mail. Don't you think
that this problem of certification is going to be a major trama to some?
My company has been approached by Travis to carry the Avalon line and now
seeing 2 of their models being directly affected, I'm very hesitant to jump
in. What happens in my area to the people who purchased the stoves thinking
that they would meet any clean air standard? Does Travis listen to the barking?
Do you think Travis will be willing to purchase the stoves back? Change
out? I know I do not want my company caught in the middle of this. Your
thoughts on this would be great. Thanks for your time, Brad Ward Custom
Fireside Shops Sacramento, California E@mail: [email protected] (ed. Note)
-Brad's concerns are answered below ___________________________
2. Press Release - April 3, 1996 From Kurt Rumens, President - Travis Industries
Travis Industries of Kirkland, Wa. was informed today by Robert C. Marshall,
Office of Compliance, EPA (206-564-7021), that the previously certified
stoves manufactured by Travis Industries and identified in an earlier press
release (4/2/96) continue to retain the clean burn certifications requires
by the EPA. These models are: Lopi Freedom Lopi 380 Freestanding, Lopi X
Insert Avalon 996 Avalon 1196NT A former owner of an EPA certified testing
laboratory in Kent, Wa. pleaded guilty yesterday in US district court to
deliberately falsifying test reports on at least ten different models of
wood stoves manufactured by seven different companies. The EPA's Marshall
stated today that all of these stoves continue to be EPA certified stoves
and the manufacturers will have a 30 say time frame in which to indepently
retest the models and verify they do indeed comply with the federal clean
air standards. Travis Industries officials are confident that further testing
will demonstrate compliance with all the applicable emissions laws. Marshall
further indicated there are no federal restrictions on manufacturing, selling
or buying these stove model. Also, a favorable ruling was released by the
Wshington State Dept of Ecology on April 4, 1996, stating that all affected
stoves can be sold until the EPA issues revised tests on these stoves. Earlier
this week, Ecology had stated that these stoves could not be sold until
AFTER the new test results are in. ______________end of release (ed note)
- The above should put many of the rumors to rest...Some would consider
me over optimistic (I was born that way), but I think this thing will all
settle down and everything will be OK. I've heard that some stove sales
folks are trying to use this event to sell against certain brands...if there
was ever a time to stick together and circle the wagons, this is it...we
should't take advantage of folks because of their misfortune at the hands
of a criminal. Compete cause you have a better product, or can make it for
less $$, or can provide better service - but leave this one alone ! ________________________________________________________________________________
04/06/96
1. Stop Whining, Craig, and get to work..by Roger Sanders
2. Happy Easter
1.Roger Sanders posts: Craig Issod wrote: >
>
1. MAD HOUR - From Craig Issod > > B. VC, etc. - the saga continues..VC
opened up a Hardware store 6 miles > away from our store, telling us
they were "wholesale to builders" and "they > will only
have the wood fireplace and the gas logs". Well, our ........ >
> C. HPA, AGA, etc. - Well, this one is a long story, but the "old"
subject > of whether HPA is truly a specialty dealers org is popping
up again. OF > course, many of you who are "in the know" have
already confided to me that > "in no way is it a dealers org".
From my viewpoint, the health of the > industry seems to be faultering....
------------------------------------------------------
Roger replies Craig, It couldn't be better. Your computer skills, your retail
success and abuse from one of your manufacturers make you the ideal person
to blaze a much needed new trail. You are singlehandedly creating a large
scale specialty retailer information network that lets any retailer become
immediately aware of problems and abuse by manufacturers. Thanks to you,
we don't have to be in the dark any more! Here are my thoughts about alternative
distribution. VC isn't the only manufacturer that wants to compete with
the Specialty Hearth Retailers using as many alternative channels as possible.
VC is just the most visable and has a head start. CFM/Magestic/VC/(who knows)
is certainly banking on not losing the heart of their business, the Specialty
Hearth Retailers, as they mount an ever larger flanking attack into every
other possible channel. People I've talked to from other manufacturers simply
say that Specialty Hearth Retailers haven't even scratched the surface of
the "real hearth products business". Manufacturers need the flanking
attacks of lots of alternative distribution to get to the "real market",
and it's big enough for everybody. It may work if they don't loose their
main battle zone business (our customer's). Historically, manufacturer's
need to control more than half of their entire market for flanking attacks
to work. VC doesn't come close to this control in the stove market. To make
it more interesting, I hear rumors of two major steel stove manufacturers
that will be introducing completely new cast iron lines to take away VC's
existing core business. My conclusion is that VC is doomed to failure, because
they arn't strong enough to hold their main battle zone stove business (us)
while they pursue the multiple flanking attacks of multiple alternative
distribution channels. Their tactics could work if they owned half their
market and they were selling a commodity like razer blades, but they are
selling the world's most difficult consumer product to get installed properly
and to get running reliably and safely. They really have to have the knowledge
and skills of Specialty Hearth Retailers to continue to be successful. I
would sure put CFM on the Sell list if I were dabbling in Canadian stocks.
The nice thing about capitalism is that you can vote with your Purchase
Order if you've been abused. The single thing that every manufacturer listens
to is the Purchase Order. All the rest of the stuff we say is just whining.
The nice thing about our capitalism is our freedom of the press. Craig,
there are some more creative things that you can easily do. Why don't you
solicit each stove manufacturer for a statement about alternative distribution
and post the results in the clubhouse? You could post a list of the brand
names and then a ranking of "strong", "weak", "no
comment" and "no support" to us. I know that there are other
manufacturers of high quality stoves and fireplaces that absolutely WILL
NOT go around the Specialty Hearth Retailer. A number of major manufacturers
would jump at the chance to make a statement about this. Craig, don't just,
whine, vent and be mad, use your computer !!!!!! There are hundreds of retailers
like me that would like to see a list like this. Talk to you soon. Roger
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Budda says: Avoid whining, just do it! --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Issod replies...Roger, you couldn;t be more right on. I just spent
1/2 hour talking to my father about my concern that this list was going
to go too far down the path of being one big COMPLAINT. I also thought of
EXACTLY the same Idea regarding a statement from each and every manufacturer.
I think this would be good for everyone, since it would be clear where each
stands. So, as a result, here's the steps I am going to take
1. I'll shut up : This is not MY list, it's all of ours, including the manufacturers,
etc. I will await input to the list from others, and try to fade into the
background some. This will make the list more democratic..SO, EVERYONE -
SPEAK UP !
2. After a while, I'd love to turn over the list MOM function to another
retailer...Tim Nissen, if he's game...This way we could all switch around.
Oh ! and very good insight about the VC/CFM etc. thing. I agree completely.
Vermont uses the arguments:
1. 500,000 fireplaces are sold each year (and few by specialty retailers)
2. Very few (only 20% of these are sold by Hearth Dealers. Of course, most
of these ate $199. boxes being installed for $75. labor each.
04/07/96
1. Distribution Channels - By Tim Nissen
2.EPA bogus testing panic - bt Jim Butchart
3.VC/CFM, etc...by Jim Butchart
1.X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft From: [email protected] Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996
00:19:20 -0500 To: [email protected] Subject: Distribution Channels I suppose
that I should remain quiet, sip my beer and enjoy my Saturday evening, but
I think that I have this genetic need to "mouth off." First, it
seems to me that there is a lot of good product out there, and in this medium
city market there are three specialty retailers. Let's say we each did a
good job with a cast iron line, a steel stove line, and a tin fireplace
line. That still leaves a lot of good product either languishing in our
stores or seeking a way to market via the gas utility, an HVAC contractor,
mass merchant, hardware store, spa store, chimney sweep or elsewhere. What's
worse, sometimes when a product really hits, as Heat N Glo has in this market,
all three specialty stores sell the line, plus the utility, HVAC and anyone
else who has an account with one or more of their three distributors. Herd
instinct takes over. Second, I firmly believe in the power of the purchase
order, as Roger Sanders puts it. Here's how I rate my suppliers:
1. Lopi, Avalon & FPX - we are fortunate to sell all three Travis lines,
in sufficient numbers to keep them happy, and I have many good things to
say about them. They have kept their focus on the specialty store, even
changing FPX distribution away from installing distributors in favor of
lower volume specialty stores. Their dating, pricing and promotion programs
work for me, and I get very good service. I like the fact that I am dealing
with a competent hardworking group of people who have been there for a number
of years. I see the two reps. at least six times a year and they almost
always have something constructive they are trying to accomplish. Sometimes
it takes a little "educating" from the dealer (they might call
it histrionic posturing), but Travis is really quite positive, flexible
and entrepreneurial in the way they run their business. It's contagious.
2. Hearthstone - unique good products that we sell with outstanding margins
in a very clean market area. New woodstoves are of interest because of our
market, their uniqueness, and the chance to earn a great return on our investment.
Shipping from Vermont is fraught with peril and problem solving type service
is very slow peak season. These guys seem very focused, and I can't imagine
seeing their products at the local utility or HVAC. I see the rep. a lot
(he's the Avalon guy as well), and the company is positive, flexible and
nice to do business with.
3. Heat N Glo - Totally dominates our market with close to an 80% market
share in new homes. We get about half that share, and margins are a little
lower, but still quite acceptable. I really like doing business with both
our distributor (Fireside Distributors of Oregon) and with Heat N Glo. They
are positive, genuine and authentic people who have worked hard with us
to create programs that are mutually beneficial. We have a tremendous amount
invested with these guys and while the situation has had me very nervous
for the past two years, I can't make a sound case for making a change.
4. Whitfield - well engineered somewhat overpriced and homely products.
Distribution isn't clean, and the old line pellet-head dealers to the south
and north of us don't seem to understand the concept of added value, or
adequate gross margins. Whitfield is dabbling in the hardware store market
with their low end model, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a market by
market approach, especially if pellet stoves continue to decline and those
with pellet religion pass on and go to their just reward. We're not doing
as well as we should be with these guys, and I need to figure out why. Your
help appreciated.
5. Vermont Castings - for a while, nothing but duds: CDW acquisition, Sequoia,
Seneca, Goldenwarm Fireplaces, Dauntless, Prism, Acclaim implosions, etc.
Then a series of extra base hits: redesigned Dutchwest, improved Radiance,
Stardance, new DV gas fireplace. Wonderfire is an irritating distraction
in this market, with parasitic sales being made, but our business with VC
is up significantly, and it remains profitable. We think we can sell their
fireplace to builders and their clients. List prices allowing 33% gross
margins drive me crazy and make me think that VC management is insensitive
to the realities of my business. And, for all of their hype, VC's overall
service, dealer support, and promotional programs are not the best that
we deal with. Sometimes they leave a lot to be desired. Still, we have a
relatively clean market and we make money and happy customers selling Vermont
Castings. We see the rep. twice a year. I see no obvious benefit to the
CFM/Majestic/VC merger/acquisition. CFM and Majestic make decent products,
but I keep hearing negative things about the way they do business, and they
have a butt-load of debt to service now. Growth is the continuing mantra
in Bethel and Toronto, and they see most of it happening with non specialty
hearth channels. Can't help but wonder about $1,500 bbq's, $895 benches,
cheap gas logs, and ventless anything. I bet we'll see them in the Smith
and Hawken or similar catalog before too long. Dennis and Bill say no changes,
business as usual. I see profound changes starting about two years ago and
continuing into the future. As the Boy Scouts say, "Be Prepared."
6. Envirogas and Marco. Smaller lines, niche products, excellent quality,
good margins, great distributor (AES & Fireside), great support. Vedy clean,
vedy clean. Third, ask yourself, from a manufacturer's viewpoint, do you
expect the hearth products market to grow over the next 5-10 years? assuming
that you do, Do you expect to see new hearth products specialty stores starting
up during this period? (not very damn many). I think that it is absolutely
inevitable that the growth at retail is going to take place in large part
through new retail outlets. I cite the dealer list that came in my NW Natural
Gas Bill last month. There were 80 "stores" listed, and I think
each of them at least had to have one gas hearth product burning to qualify
for the listing. I counted 22 as being traditional hearth product specialty
stores, about ten of them first class operations. That leaves 58 hvac, hardware
stores, utility retail outlets, new gas specialty companies; and twelve
or so marginal dealers. If I was a gas appliance mfgr, I'd be looking hard
at the alternatives. Some of the market leaders, like VC and Heat N Glo,
are chasing them. Others, like Travis and Hearthstone, are trying to gain
sales and market share by focusing on those ten first class dealers, and
some of the more marginal dealers. So what's a poor specialty retailer to
do? From my perspective, keep your focus on your customer and what's best
for them, and put your strongest support--inventory, displays, floor space,
advertising and other promo--with the manufacturers who are most committed
to your success. And remember, nothing lends itself to excellent specialty
store retailing the way that hearth products do. They are dangerous, complicated,
difficult to install, service intensive, seasonal products. The fact that
it's a hard business keeps us going.
2.X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 00:58:44 -0800 From:
Jim Butchart Organization: The Fireplace People
@ Hearth & Color Shop MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hearth list
Subject: EPA bogus testing panic I can't believe the effects the bogus EPA
tests has had on a lot of folks out here in the "real world".
On the one hand I read mail from folks that seem to be in total panic. One
message was from a dealer who doesn't even carry one of the effected models,
but wonders aloud, what if he did? Would he have to buy it back? Should
he buy from an effected manufacturer? On the other side of the coin... one
of my competitors across town faxed me, with glee, the article out of a
Seattle paper detailing the fiasco. I just happen to be the Lopi guy in
town. I'm pretty sure some milage will be made by some dealers who do not
happen to sell QuadraFire, Avalon, Lopi, et al, at the expense of these
quality stove builders. It's time to get *real*, people! This is a very
unfortunate circumstance that is going to cost these factories a lot of
money just in retesting alone. The cost in confidence is going to be a lot
harder to calculate. The thing to remember is... it could have been your
favorite stove maker using that lab. As for me, I will wait and see what
I have to do to support the industry and my friends at Travis. -- Jim Butchart
[email protected] http://www.HearthShop.com "Do or do not. There
is no try." -Yoda ______________________________________________________________
3. X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft Date: Sun, 07 Apr 1996 03:03:53 -0700 From:
Jim Butchart Organization: The Fireplace People
@ Hearth & Color Shop MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Craig Issod
Subject: Re: hearth digest 4/6/96 Craig Issod wrote: >
1. Stop Whining, Craig, and get to work..by Roger Sanders Craig,I think
you missed the point! Look what Roger said.... > Craig, > > It
couldn't be better. Your computer skills, your retail success and abuse
> from one of your manufacturers make you the ideal person to blaze a
much > needed new trail. You are singlehandedly creating a large scale
specialty > retailer information network that lets any retailer become
immediately aware > of problems and abuse by manufacturers. Thanks to
you, we don't have to be in > the dark any more! I expect to read your
thoughts here in this forum. There is a lot going on in this industry now
that justifies complaining and venting! You built the soapbox. Use it! Craig
replied: > > 1. I'll shut up : This is not MY list, it's all of ours,
including the > manufacturers, etc. I will await input to the list from
others, and try to > fade into the background some. This will make the
list more democratic..SO, > EVERYONE - SPEAK UP ! Forget it! Unless you
have been deleting everyone elses input, my guess is that if you were to
shut up, we wouldn't have much to read and respond to. > > Oh ! and
very good insight about the VC/CFM etc. thing. I agree completely. >
Vermont uses the arguments: > > 1. 500,000 fireplaces are sold each
year (and few by specialty retailers) > 2. Builders sell most fireplaces
I'd love to sit in the business school class when they do a case study of
the CFM/Majestic/VC experment. Here is the largest conglomerate manufacturer
of hearth product betting the bank that they will be successful grabbing
market share. Mr. Sanders is convinced they will fail. My gut tells me he
is right. Builders in my area are price driven. They buy "z-cans"
cheap. If 500,000 fireplaces are sold each year to builders it is because
they are cheap. Builder direct distributors buy at outrageous discounts
and work off of a 15-20% margin. How much market share can VC possibly hope
to get even if they went direct? Builders won't pay the price. What about
CFM? They picked up a bunch of share in the last couple of years by attractive
pricing to wholetailers. Those wholetailers now have to buy from Majestic
and sell against the builder-direct distributors. Think those specialty
wholetailers will buy from Majestic long? I think not. What is their next
move going to be? The Insta-Flame engine behind a VC front? Wonderful! I'm
out of that loop! For me it's a very strange time. I think I know what a
manic-depressive must feel like. One day I'm feeling jazzed about all the
gas units we are putting in. Hiring people from my competitors, buying bigger
trucks, and loading up the warehouse. Just when I think that my courting
of builders is starting to pay off, my vendor does an end-around and goes
direct. -- Jim Butchart [email protected] http://www.HearthShop.com
__________________________________________ end of digest.. Please send posts
to [email protected]
04/06/96
1 Angry at VC for Fireplace Distributor Policy
2. Any thoughts on improving Hearthwarming magazine ?
1. Good Morning, I just talked with my VC rep. He teels me that VC has been
instituting a plan for a little over a year to sell fireplace distributors
VC fireplaces, wood and gas, and more recently their gas logs. They feel
there is no conflict. Well I'm pissed and about to strike. I know where
his biggest market for stoves is and I'm thinking of running a print ad
offering VC stoves at cost plus freight!!! I considered the Web but I am
only considering dealing with this on a somewhat local basis. I'm sure the
rest of the guys at our meeting will love to here this story. So, look for
VC products at all of the fireplace distributors in your area! I'M SMOKING
!!! I'll keep you posted.
2.Hi All! Don't mean to get off the worthy subject(s) but I'm about to do
revisions for the new Hearthwarming. Any suggestions to make it better?
I'm thinking of profiling new hearth appliance owners - one for each fuel
- sort of an up close and personal look at the benefits from a new owner's
POV. Would this work? Thoughts? If you like the idea, do you have any recent
customers with standout installations that I could interview and have the
magazine photograph? Please advise. Send any and all thoughts. (And in my
opinion, Travis and Quadra-Fire have more integrity than 75% of the manufacturers
out there.) Tah! Sondra Kelly-Green From: [email protected] Date: Mon, 8 Apr
1996 21:05:09 -0400 (ed. note) Hey, Sondra, we could all use a few lighter
subjects...thanks ! ---------------------------------------------------
end of digest
04/09/96
1. Looking to the future
2. Integrity of manufacturers
1. The future through a pinhole:
Note: this article is quite good and extensive look at the past and future,
and has been reprinted and stored at future.html
2. Integrity of manufacturers
I agree will Kelly-Green about integrity when she said......" in my
opinion, Travis and Quadra-fire have more integrity than 75% of the manufacturers
out there." That is correct...... I too feel Travis has more integrity
than 75% of the manufacturers out there.... (just because I personally feel
that Travis screwed me after 15 years of doing business with them doesn't
mean I don't think they have any integrity) ...... it's just that 90% of
the manufacturers think like dogs..... Travis..... they won't hump your
leg in a crowded room.... they have more integrity..... I will not burn
the bridge that binds us....I do like their products still.... but I am
just a sour old mate that lives in the lesser green pasture for right now....
I could be you. Anybody out there got leg burns? I like to hear more. Ken
___________________________ ~\!|!/~ (Q * ) -----------ooO~(_)~Ooo-----------------
////||\\\\ Dragons Breathe Best Together Forge a Stronger Fire ===========================
_____________ end of digest Send posts to [email protected]
04/10/96
1. More on VC and FP Distributors
2. Travis and Loyalty 3
3.Thanks from Hearthwarming
4. It's like childbirth - dealing with manuf.
Dear Friends I too am a VC dealer. We were one of the first four or so
in California. And we definitly feel betrayed. I'm not sure who you are,
where your store is, or how long you've sold VC, but if you have sold the
product for a long time, you have seen the "maturing" of their
corporate management. Quite a long way from Murray and Duncan's original
business and the first dealer meeting at Camp Teelawookit. It really has
been a natural evolution. They had a great reputation for caring about their
customers, both the retail consumer and the dealer. (We actually felt that
one reason for staying in the silly hearth business was so that we could
continue our relationship with the wonderful people that worked for the
company.) Then the big cash shortage came with the purchase of CDW, and
the inevitable buy-out from corporate America looking for a turn-around
company. VC needed cash and "professional" management. And it
got them both. It has been owned for quite a while now by people disconnected
from the "soul" and vision that started the company. They are
now, and have been for a bit, simply looking to maximize profits on their
investment. And, in this corporate world, short term profits are more important
than long term, as there is considerable debt to pay each month. The company
must now operate more like Shell Oil than the VC of the past. It doesn't
surprise me that VC will be going to distributors with their new fireplaces.
Wouldn't you like to have your cake and eat it too? VC is trying. Personally,
I think the cake is being eaten, one bite at a time, and could disappear.
You must understand that VC doesn't care who sells their product, but only
that it sells. I would suggest that you quietly switch your emphasis onto
a product that gives you profit and exclusivity. Let VC sales decrease in
your area. Lots of other dealers are. And build your profitability so that
YOU and another favorite manufacturer stay in business and dominate your
market. I know that the loss of exclusivity of VC products has changed our
relationship and buying habits with VC. We now have at least 8 competitors
in our small market (about 50,000 people) selling VC gas product. It's a
tricky path to follow to still sell all the products that you can without
playing into your competition's lower priced hand. I wish you and all other
VC dealers luck and wisdom. By the way, word out on our streets is that
our West Coast rep will be leaving us. And switching horses. Looks like
he will now be selling Wonderfire to our West Coast competitors and showing
them how to sell it. Go figure.
2. Travis and Loyalty X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft From: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:28:26 -0400 To: [email protected] Subject:
Travis, Loyalty list 1) Travis Ind. - the BEST in the industry!!! 2) Re:
Roger Sanders comments 1) I've read several comments regarding Travis Industries.
They are the BEST manufacturer to work with, that I have worked with, in
the entire industry. They have, overall, the best looking product line available
and best quality ( in my opinion ). Because of this they have been our TOP
selling stove line for the last 5 years. 2) I too would like to see a list
of manufacturers that have publicly stated a commitment to the specialty
retailer. In turn, we ( the specialty retailer ) should show our support
and commitment with our purchase order. To those listed manufacturers that
we do not sell, a letter of thanks should be sent. First, lets see that
list. I believe Travis Ind., Aladdin Steel Products, and Excel Chimney Systems
have already done this with adds placed in our trade journals. Who's next?
Thank you. Jon __________________________
3. Thanks from Hearthwarming X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft From: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:31:44 -0400 To: [email protected], [email protected],
[email protected], [email protected] Subject: Re: Hearth Digest
Thanks so much to all of you who responded with testimonial ideas for Hearthwarming
- sounds like there's some really neat installations out there! I've decided
against doing it because as Ken Fulgione pointed out, it would take away
the appearance of retailers producing the magazine themselves. I don't think
northern retailers for example would be thrilled to have a profile of a
couple in Florida and their new ventless product - (which they don't carry).
The magazine truly belongs to you guys, and I don't want to do anything
to damage its value. Am I right on this? Also ANY other ideas that would
liven up Hearthwarming and make it a stronger marketing tool would be appreciated.
Thanks too for the positive input on Travis. I feel they have been extremely
supportive in their commitment to selling ONLY to specialty retailers -
all too rare these days as you know. It's nice to hear so many of you feel
the same. Tah! Sondra Kelly-Green __________________________
4. It's like childbirth forward Craig, Dealing with manufacturers is a lot
like childbirth, you forget how painful it is. Manufacturers are after only
one thing and that's a sale. Everyone has to remember that manufacturers
do not care what you sell it at, or what the store down the street sells
it at they made their profit and more often than not, in this industry anyway,
you did not make the profit that you need to stay in business. Everyone
has two choices, put up, or shut up. You can put up by not dealing with
those manufacturers and doing the necessary homework to compete against
them, or continue to let them walk over you. The biggest problem that I
see all of us specialty retails having is that OUR alleged association (HPA)
is now courting the mass merchants. So OUR collective voices to manufacturer
is now even more muted. No one as even said a word about that issue. Do
we as a group of specialty retailers have the guts to stand-up to HPA and
these other manufacturers and tell them to take a flying leap? I doubt it.
So we will continue to be walked on, we will continue to moan about it,
and we will continue to do nothing about it. Brad Ward Custom Fireside Shops
Sacramento, California ______________________________ end of digest __________________
Reminder..send posts to [email protected] - please specify if a post
is private, otherwise I will consider it to be for the list ! Craig
04/10/96
1. Reply about HPA
2.Boycott Trade Show or Alternative Trade Show ?
3. Opinion on above...
Brad Ward Said: >The biggest problem that I see all of us specialty retails
having is that >OUR alleged association (HPA) is now courting the mass
merchants. So OUR >collective voices to manufacturer is now even more
muted. No one as even >said a word about that issue. Do we as a group
of specialty retailers have >the guts to stand-up to HPA and these other
manufacturers and tell them to >take a flying leap? I doubt it. So we
will continue to be walked on, we will >continue to moan about it, and
we will continue to do nothing about it.
Craig Issod ([email protected]_ replies: Brad, you're right about our
concern, but you're wrong about no mention of the HPA. There has been quite
of bit of discussion on this list and among retailers regarding the HPA's
stance on these issues. If anything, forums such as this list are starting
to get our collective voices heard. I also, as you may, feel a groundswell
of opinion echoing around the country. Problem is, as you mentioned, many
retailers are afraid to speak up (afraid of repurcussions). I know, cause
many of them post to me provately. I can't blame them for being paranoid
- no one wants to be the first to walk across the hot coals...at the same
time, it's a good thing our forefathers finally threw the tea into Boston
Harbor. HPA is on this mailing list, and they had promised to post some
communications as time goes on. Consider this a formal invitation to HPA
to address the concerns of dealers all over the country (including dealers
who are or have been active in HPA and affiliates) who feel that the interests
of HPA are too "political". Definition: Political: Following money
and/or power interests as opposed to the will of the people represented.
You're on, HPA.
2. Alternative Trade Show To: [email protected] From: [email protected]
(ward, brad) Subject: Too much thinking Craig, Sorry about bugging you again,
but here's a thought. What if, as a group of specialty retailers, we all
come together to tell HPA how we feel about the mass merchants joining,
assuming we are all leery about it, by finding the cost of renting another
hall at Reno next year, telling the manufacturers who stand behind us, selling
them the booth space at whatever percentage of cost they take, and then
boycotting the Convention Center? I don't know if anyone is with me or not,
but it sure sounded good. This assumes that, one we unify as a group, two,
we all are concerned about the mass merchant and three, if there are any
manufacturers do care. Remembering that they are all looking at the potential
of more sales....initally. Please note too, that I am a member of HPA, but
I have never choosen to get involved politically, because I have ALWAYS
felt that they never cared about the specialty retailer, only the manufacturers.
Please post this, as I would like to know how others feel Thanks for all
your efforts. Brad Ward _________________________________________________________
3. To the above post, Craig Issod ([email protected]) replies YIPPIE
!, I MEAN YUPPIE, I MEAN "Steal this Book" Sorry, folks, I'm having
flashbacks to the 60's - I forgot Abbie's dead and Jerry Rubin's a stockbroker
-(grin) But seriously, most of our manufacturers are doing quite poorly
(a bad year last year), and they would surely suffer from such an arrangement.
Moreover, unless we get a million or so together (for beginners), it could
be tough to pull off. Lastly, it still may be possible to satisfy ourselves
through existing channels (I'm always the optimist). Remember, the HPA and
the affiliates had to work all kinds of things out in order to merge. By
the same token, if the affiliates, and a number of independent retailers
decided to have a stronger voice in HPA, it could surely be arranged. Only
thing is, we'd have to be all of one mind (I'm getting more flashbacks,
Ghandi wearing a loincloth, facing down the British, Braveheart, etc.) Yes,
whether it's the truth or not, the perception is that HPA is not a specialty
retailers org. And, as the books tell us, perception is everything. It may
be time to develop a retailers alliance, either within the HPA, or outside
of it. With modern broadcast fax, and email, it could be very inexpensive
to develop such a faction. Anybody volunteering for straw boss ? I'm too
busy webmastering, but I'll sure join and pay my $50. per year (and put
my two cents in). Keep in mind that such a alliance need not be "anti-HPA"
or anti-big business" or "anti-anything". As a matter of
fact, I won't join or help if it is. It could just be "pro-retailer".
Just as the affiliates and other alliances complement the HPA, so could
we. Again, Brad is waiting for the volunteer board. ________________________________
send posts to [email protected]
04/11/96
1 Confused about Idea (Revolution)
2. Affiliates power, and more - Forging a stong alliance
1.To: [email protected] From: [email protected] (ward, brad) Subject: confused
(not for post) Craig, I could not tell if you liked my idea or not. I think
it could be pulled off and really would not be that hard to do. I'm not
looking for a revolution, just time for the silent majority to be heard.
If it takes a party, then I guess it's time for me to get off my butt and
throw out the first tea crate. Think about it. What did one wise man say?
"United we stand...Divided we_______!" Confusingly, Brad Craig
Replies: Just trying to lighten things up a bit, Brad. But the point is,
we have to find out if we are really the silent majority, and if there is
a concensus of opinion. The, folks must decide if and what they want to
do about it...So, if anything, my suggestions was "lets' see what the
manufacturers, HPA and retailers think" - One reply below.
2.From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 03:29:32 -0500 X-Sender:
[email protected] Mime-Version: 1.0 To: [email protected] Subject:
Forging a stronger fire It is actual good to hear people getting a little
blood boiling. I think we all had stronger opinions of what was right and
just and fair when we first started in this industry. For you young'ns when
Craig did his Yippie Yuppie stuff he wasn't singing an old Coyote song.
Jerry Ruben isn't a sandwich at the local deli. But he is symbolic of the
problem. People actually did have that "FEELING GOOD ABOUT WOOD"
attitude..... (anybody still got one of those old Liscence Plate Covers?)
and there was more cameraderie among industry members. (Maybe we were just
younger and partied hardier) Today it's "just business"..... and
some old friends remaining. Business isn't always very nice. The ideas expressed
about standing up in HPA and being heard, need to be heard. To be mosy effective
it is best done on the regional level... get involved with your local affiliate.
At the affiliate level the retail dealer is better represented and can speak
with a more united voice..... and you will be heard. The national HPA is
a manufacturers organization and I do not think they have ever implied otherwise.
If you look at the structure of the board it is obvious it was set up as
a manufacturers group with some contact with the dealer members thru various
amounts of allowed minority participation. If we don't get involved on a
local level beyond having our dues paid to the local affiliate because we
go to the annual trade show ....then why should we complain? We get what
we put forth. Forget the loyalty crap ..... and years in the industry........political
changes can only be made by member involvement. If you don't think HPA should
be contacting other marketing sourcesfor the manufacturers get your local
affiliate fired up. If you think HPA is supposed to represent some dealer
interests......get your local affiliate to speak up. The HPA is basically
an empty shell without its affilaite groups. And as for influencing the
decision making process ......we all know it takes the power of the dollar....
and even the dollars of a few when added together can create some influence.
You can complain about the structure and the direction of the industry all
you want but your voice will be heard more effectively thru regional involvement.
So go to your next regional affiliates meeting and see what is being done
and how you can help. Not just the annual gathering... go to one of the
monthly meetings and see how you can help.... somebody has to lick the stamps
for the newsletter. As for you poor soles that have been cut off from having
a regional affliation to join.... well you have a real beef but I don't
think anyone is going to hear you for a while. It is an issue that has to
be adressed but I am not sure how. The reason HPA stopped the expansion
and growth of the affiliates is because we control the larger share of the
funds in areas we have formed affiliates. Most of the non-manufacturers
money goes to the Affiliates that are already formed. If HPA allowed continued
affiliate growth they would not have the funds to run their organization
under the present structure. (If I am wrong here .... please correct me)
Get involved in the political arena it is your business that is effected.
If you think HPA should be trying to increase market penetration rather
than penetrate other sources for additional marketers..... raise hell at
the local with your voice and your body. Politics and affiliates and national
HPA aside................ if you want a real say in what is occuring around
you join forces with some of the dealers in the region you are in that have
some common product bonds.. Increase your presence and your influence at
the buyers table by forming buying groups. (How have the smaller hardware
stores been able to survive and compete with the chains? Do you think the
Mr. Hammer Company had any second thoughts about selling hammers to mass
merchants? I mean all those years of Ma&Pa loyalty to Mr. Hammer products
should have ment something right? Yet both do exist. The smaller hardware
stores in many case are able to compete thru participation in buying groups.
The buying groups provide pricing advantages to keep the smaller operation
competitive.) Buying groups or coops not only help you stay competitive
they also can really get a manufacturers attention. Take your volume in
chimney purchases and multiply it by 10 or 15. Do you think there may be
a better price for that volume of loyalty? Do you think you may be able
to "influence" the manufacturers attitude in your area... and
if you can't maybe there will be another manufacturer that will want to
listen to your group.The power of coop buying volume can work. It can also
get really ugly and back fire. I would like to have the time to research
the development of buying groups and coops in other industries. I think
there must be a maturity point or an expansion cycle that goes on in an
industry that make the coop and the buying group a natural evolution. Sounds
like some kind of Manifesto stuff. Our industry is heading towards either
a tremendous expansion phase as Gas Money makes the public aware of the
gas Hearth.... or a fast hard wall as manufacturers build up to meet a growth
in consumer demand that does not materialize. I am anxious to see the results
of an unbiased study from GRI that will give us some indication of what
is ahead for consumer interest. There is a long way to go to reach the Canadian
gas hearth per home ratio in the US market. If that is really coming it
wont mater how many guys down the road VC has set up..... It will be 1970's
again .....but rather than the.... "If you can weld it we can sell
it" approach, we will all have the ....."If you can light it from
a chair it will sell" attitude. Be gone the thought of Ozone Depletion....
Gas is natural.... we all share a little among friends now and then........Stratospheric
Ozone. So what if we have longer summers in Northern Wisconsin...it will
be enjoyable while it lasts. You wont hear the folks in Nevada complaining
about their ocean front property. Besides who ever promised to stay part
of the solution..... I did..... I just forget sometimes ...... "Feeling
Good About Gas"..... just doesn't have bumper sticker quality.... but
full speed ahead...Scotty bar the doors.... we gotta meet the cash flow....
sell that gas. Ken ____________________________ ___________________________
~\!|!/~ (Q * ) -----------ooO~(_)~Ooo----------------- ////||\\\\ Dragons
Breathe Best Together Forge a Stronger Fire ===========================
____________________________ end of digest
04/11/96
1. Letter from the prez - Travis Industries
2. Forget Mass Merchants - How about the guys around the block ?
3. Dan Melcom (mellow in Vermont)
(ed. note) Sound the trumpets, call the pages, round up the squires)
1. Letter from the prez - Travis Industries 1.X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft
From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:02:34 -0400 To: [email protected]
cc: [email protected] Subject: Message From the Prez Greetings from the Ivory
Tower, Please read slow, as my typing is rusty. I do review this site daily
(thank you G.W.) and find it more stimulating than the Seattle morning P.I.
(particularly with the stories they've run lately regarding the EPA). I
don't wish to educate or re-educate my peers in manufacturing, so I hope
they choose to ignore me, here goes... The greatest asset a Speciality retailer
offers a manufacturer is not sales (do I have your attention?). Sales will
happen only after the greatest asset you guys offer a manufacturer is integrated,
considered, debated, utilized, rejected, reconsidered, modified and ultimately
incorporated. That asset is input! Clear, practical, real-world feedback.
Your input to a manufacturer should create the very foundation for policies,
programs and ultimately the product itself. Not only for your success, but
ours as well. (If it doesn't, you're buying from the wrong guys). How likely
are you to communicate with the manufacturers that are undermining your
business? They just lost their greatest asset, YOUR INPUT! I know there
are some manufacturers that seem hell bent on destroying a relationship
with Speciality Stores to get "incremental sales increases in markets
historically not serviced by Speciality Retailers." Let them. That's
their call, in my opinion a bad one. Let them go. Those callous decisions
by some of my peers leaves retailers like you and manufacturers like me
an incredible opportunity. Together as we stay focused and mindful of the
need to continue to improve our skills, these new arenas of hearth competition
will offer us an expanded opportunity to grow our businesses together. The
Prez, Travis Industries ___________________
2. Guys around the block selling for nothing ! X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft
From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:59:42 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Mass Merchants I have to say, it's not the mass merchants that
are my biggest concern. I'm fairly confident that I can deal with them through
product definition. The biggest threat that I run up against is my own brethren;
other hearth retailers that can't or won't hold margins and labor rates
to profitable levels. You know who they are: They're the guys who quote
a low price to a customer because they know the product is going into an
adjoining dealer's territory; They're the guys who can't keep trained, quality
installation crews, push labor rates down to the $20 / hr range and don't
have at least a million dollars in insurance to protect their customer;
They're the guys that don't have the skills to sell in a positive fashion
and have to try to tear down their competitor instead of raising themselves
up, ruining the consumers confidence in our industry and our products as
they do it; They're the guys who misrepresent their stove's heating ability
and efficiency numbers in order to get the sale; They're the guys whose
salespeople aren't educated about our products and don't know enough to
really help the consumer because they aren't paid enough to stay around
for more than a year or two; They're the guys who have wreaked havoc and
created consumer disapointment in the pellet industry by saying that you
can vent them like a clothes dryer, one ton of pellets equals 3 cords of
oak, woodstoves are going to be outlawed soon and other bits of over zealous
selling. Funny thing is, most of these dealers are always complaining that
they can't make any money. And, they are the ones dragging down our hearth
manufacturers with their past due accounts. Give me the ignorance of the
$5 per hour mass merchant salesperson who really doesn't care if you buy
there or not. Many questions asked of them are answered "Um, I'm not
sure about that, I normally don't work this department." or "Whoa
dude! That's, like, a real good question, ya know!" I've noticed an
interesting trend with the mass merchants in the past 2 years. For 14 years
we've sold high quality patio furnishing made by good US manufacturers.
About five years ago some of these mfrs started selling to mass merchants
under different tradenames. It caused some problems for us, but by and large,
it didn't have a crushing effect upon us. During the past two years, I have
noticed that these US mfrs are now too expensive for these guys and that
the mass merchants have gone offshore for their patio furnishings, bringing
in product that keeps their prices as low as possible. They now sell mostly
against themselves instead of me. The consumer notices the differences in
quality and style. Admttedly, if someone is just in the market for a cheap
set, that's who they purchase from. But that's not who our customer has
been. No, the consumer has been turning to professional patio shops in order
to obtain quality, fashionable, durable product with strong warranties and
someone there to back it up. Like the hearth industry, there is very little
consumer brand recognition in the outdoor furnishings industry. There are
no Black and Deckers, Colemans, IBMs or Maytags. And without real brand
identity, the consumer is leary of making a major purchase where the store's
reputation is price, not knowledge. Yes, give me the mass merchants to fight
before the low end, low morals hearth specialty retailer. Skip Stahmer Sierra
Timberline Grass Valley, CA "It's not enough to see it coming - you
have to duck." ____________________
3. Dan Melcon - Back from the Grand Canyon X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft Date:
11 Apr 96 16:13:56 EDT From: [email protected] (Daniel J B Melcon)
Subject: Back to the real world - 3 points To: [email protected] Good morning
I'm back from rafting the Grand Canyon and am moving in slow motion. We
left ninety degree weather in Arizona, and I caught the last flight into
Vermont before a final (?) winter storm came through. School was cancelled
yesterday, so I had tons of time with the kids. Today the sun is brilliant
and the 12" of snow is disappearing like the shrimp at a trade show
hospitality suite. I've skimmed the recent hearth net discussions, and look
forward to reading them in detail. Three thoughts jump out regarding the
EPA certification debacle, manufacuturer loyalty, and retailers in the trade
group:
1. No one should gloat or try and take advantage of the companies the EPA
cited for having products that might have been certified using falsified
data. These manufacturers were victims, and if the EPA had any suspicions
of complicity you can bet they'd be making a federal case (literally) of
it. >From the very first days of Oregon DEQ regulation (1983) I learned
the outside world sees us as a single industry, and they don't distinguish
between catalytic and non-cat technology, direct vent and unvented fireplaces,
or tainted and untainted certifications. Just as any exploding gas unit
or pellet burn-back gives a black eye to the entire industry, so too does
bad publicity about stove certifications. Let's just hope that everyone
works through the issues, and our collective business isn't hurt.
2. The intense animosity towards certain manufacuturers doesn't surprise
me. I have sensed it on an individual dealer level for many years. Clearly
one of the glories of the internet is the access and forum it gives everyone.
Yes, manufacturers should take careful note of what their customers are
saying. There is a huge amount of hurt, anger and frustration. The key is
how to channel it. More important than what you feel Vermont Castings (or
other suppliers) is doing to you is how you respond to it.
3. The same holds true with retailer relationships with the HPA. Again,
as one who has been an unconforming outsider for many years (I didn't invent
my pseudonym, Damn Melcontent), I understand the emotion and exasperation.
The voice and needs of the retailer seem to take a back seat to squeakier
wheels. But before looking to establish other trade groups or shows, I suggest
listening to the counsel of people like Tim Nissen, who have been on the
inside. I was once told that "Diplomacy is the art of getting your
own way". A collective, diplomatic approach by retailers may benefit
everyone at a lower financial, time and emotional cost. a mellowed (for
the moment) Dan Melcon ________________________________________ end of digest....
04/12/96
1. Tim Nissen talks about HPA, etc
2. Marty Weiss is not happy with VC (and not alone)
3. Seperate Trade show...More
4, Retailers Alliance..More
5. Make a gas stove that works, please !
1.From: Tim Nissen Organization: Home Fire Stove MIME-Version:
1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: HPA & Retailers Several recent postings
on our mail list are remarkably ignorant as to the purpose and limitations
of a trade association in general and the HPA specifically. Trade associations
are made up of competitors of all types who come together for the common
good. I'm a member as are my best local competitors. Most of the time they
don't like me, and I don't like them, but we do have interests in common
and problems that we can better solve together rather than separately. Vermont
Castings, Jotul and Waterford are all members. Do you think there is any
love lost between them? HPA cannot unreasonably limit its membership, nor
can it attempt to dictate how its members conduct business. To do otherwise
has anti-trust and restraint of trade implications, and that's not how the
system is supposed to work, folks. Carried very far at all, it is not legal.
I don't like mass merchants, schlocky competitors, installing distributors,
window vent gas applainces, lazy sales reps, lousy warranty service, margins
under 40%, cheap Scotch or the Dallas Cowboys. However, I don't look to
my trade association to solve all of my self-righteous, self-interested
problems in these important areas. And just because everything isn't to
my specifications (or even close) I don't threaten to quit and start a competing
trade show, just for me and my friends (actually I did once, but it was
meant to be humorous). I served on the HPA Board for about five years, as
a retail representative and then as an affiliate representative. Being effective
involved showing up, speaking out in a reasonable and pursuasive way, and
being heard, or understood. Retailers interests were well represented, and
they still are, by capable volunteer industry members. Currently there are
two retailers on the board. In addition, I believe that several of the affiliate
board members are retailers. In addition there are twelve excellent retailers
that make up the retail advisory board that meets with the full board twice
a year. In addition, several of the board members, such as Vice Chair Kirk
Newby have run retail operations, and staff member John Crouch ran a retail
store for a number of years. There's a retail caucus along with every other
constituent group. Finally, take a look at where HPA spends its money. Do
retailers benefit from the trade show? Do they benefit from the educational
programs purchased? Do they benefit from the money spent on lawyers and
lobbyists and staff and member programs and the newsletter? Do retailers
benefit from the promotional dollars spent? Of course they do, and the benefits
far exceed the money they directly contribute in dues. I'm sorry, but some
of the recent postings remind me of welfare families complaining about the
accomodations.
2. Marty Weiss is not happy with VC (and not alone) X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:38:04 EDT From: [email protected] (MR MARTY
WEISS) To: [email protected] Subject: VC Good Morning, Please post this
note. Yesterday I talked to my VC rep about the fireplace distributor channel
that they are pursuing for the sale of their wood and gas fireplaces as
well as their gas logs. I got a VERY STRONG indication that they were buying
the fireplaces at a different price than the rest of the VC hearth retailers.
The night before last we sold a $5,000 mantle to a local customer. He had
a VC fireplace brochure in his hand and the salesperson attempted to sell
him the fireplace as well. We were informed that his contractor got it at
a local (6 miles from our store) fireplace distributor. We saw the name
of the distributor on the brochure and checked the price the next day. Ready
for this ?.... a VC woodburning fireplace, black glass doors, and a 20'
run of pipe....$1415 !!... $1615 installed !!! I figured that that package
would cost us $1255 without freight on the unit or doors. I discussed this
situation with our rep and that is where I got the distinct impression that
the fireplace distributor pricing is different. He also told me that I should
still display this unit because everyone will not go to this distributor
even thought VC gives out his number as a dealer when you call their 800
number. I told him to drop dead !!. I was born at night but not last night!
In addition I also received a not-so-veiled threat that if the So.Ca. retailers
would not support ( buy ) their gas logs, he would start to contact other
hearth and non-hearth retailers and if they wanted the regular line of VC
products as a condition to buying the gas logs, he woulld have no choice
but to sell them. At this point I told him to open whomever he wants but
NEVER forget that it is the retailer that controls the customer ! I assume
that this is a VC company policy and the rep is not acting alone. Perhaps
he doesn't care anymore about the folks that "brought him to the dance",
maybe he is moving on ? I hope the management team in Vermont/Canada is
monitoring this site.. Please explain this kind of thinking and rank amature
business practice !!! To the rest of my fellow speciality retailers.....I
don't take to being threaten and I hope you don't ! Please shed some light
on this. _______________________________________
3. Seperate Trade show...More X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft Date: Thu, 11 Apr
1996 22:32:33 GMT X-Sender: [email protected] (Unverified) Mime-Version:
1.0 To: [email protected] From: [email protected] (ward, brad) Subject:
time????? Craig, My idea of a seperate trade show seems to be a little misunderstood.
It is more to do with speaking-up. TO make HPA national listen, you need
to shout at them where they listen, in the pocketbook. That is the tradeshow.
Rent a hall in Reno for $10,000.00. Find 20 manufacturers, who won't go
to mass merchants, charge them $500.00 and there you have it. HPA then listens,
other manufacturers then listen. And the manufacturers who do this pay a
lot less then what HPA would cost them. This is a one time deal. Not an
annual thing. I can hear all the negatives now, HPA does this, HPA does
that, etc and you can't take money from them. But the fact of the matter
for my store is that within one mile of it I have a LUMBERJACK, a HOME DEPOT,
and a HOME CLUB, all big mass merchant players and they take money from
my company. Plus as Skip Stahmer from Grass Valley alluded to, Sacramento
is home some of the worst give away retailers in the business. Bad enough
that they effect him in a town 40 miles away. I can fight one, or the other,
but it's been tough to fighting both and I don't think my trade organization
should be helping one of them. The give away retailers will go away, I've
seen a lot of that over the last 28 years in this business. So I'm throwing
the first tea crate against the mass merchants and the HPA. Brad Ward ___________________________
4, Retailers Alliance..More X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft X-Sender: [email protected]
Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:57:31 -0500 To: [email protected]
From: [email protected] (Craig Issod) Subject: Specialty Retailers Alliance
>X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft >From: [email protected] >Date: Thu,
11 Apr 1996 19:47:47 -0400 >To: [email protected] >Subject: Specialty
Retailers Alliance > >Craig, > >I was delighted at this mornings
Hearth Digest. There are actually others >that feel like I do!!! >
>A few weeks ago I brainstormed an idea. Form a Specialty Retailers Alliance.
> I put this aside, thinking it was too radical of an idea and was scared
to >tell anyone because of the possible ramifications. Now I know I'm
not alone! > > >Since I'm not alone, here are a few ideas: >
>
1) Support of the HPA and its affiliates is a MUST. Whether they are for
>the specialty retailer or not, they keep the "treehuggers"
off our backs and >ALL of us in business. They also provide a place for
us to meet each year ( >as long as its NOT in Las Vegas). >
2) Boycotting the trade show would be counter-productive. If any boycotting
>is to go on it should be directed towards the manufacturers that are
turning >on the heart of the industry. From what I've read and heard
there is the >largest hearth products manufacturer already running, as
fast as they can, to >that chopping block. >
3) The membership must be made up of ONLY specialty hearth product >retailers.
Not hardware stores, wholetailers, heating & air people, utility >companies,
or the "wanna-be mass BBQ merchant chain". >
4) Set up at least one on-line retailer in each HPA affiliate's area. This
>one will be responsible for contacting the retailers that are not on-line
and >posting their views. >5) Having the help of the Webmaster ( Hearth
Digest, e-mail, fax ), handling >our problems regionally should not be
an issue. > >Here are some additional thoughts that ( I feel ) confirms
the need for a >specialty retailers group: > >
1) The HPA is a manufacturers organization. >
2) My HPA affiliate's membership and board members are made up of, not only
>specialty retailers, but also manufacturers ( that sell to mass-merchants
), >manufacturer reps, wholetailers, hardware stores, distributors, and
that >"wanna-be mass BBQ merchant chain". With such a diversification
of interest, >how can I feel comfortable approaching my affiliate for
the type of help I or >we need? > >Craig, I'm not volunteering
for the straw boss position, but I'll sure join >and pay my $50 and offer
my humble help. Now that the ball got another push, >who's going to push
next? > >Thank you for your help. > >Jon Harman _______________________________________
>X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft >From: [email protected] >Date: Thu,
11 Apr 1996 20:06:40 -0400 >To: [email protected] >Subject: Specialty
Retailers Alliance #2 > >Craig, > >One last thought, the specialty
retailer that Skip Stahmer, from Sierra >Timberline,Grass Valley, CA
spoke about could cause problems with the >proposed alliance. Besides,
maybe we already have our alliance, the Hearth >Digest. What do you think?
> >Once again, thank you for letting us voice our thoughts. > >Jon
Harman
5. Make a gas stove that works, please ! >From: [email protected] >Date:
Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:21:54 -0400 >Apparently-To: [email protected]
> >to gas stove manufacturers and my fellow hearth retailers: >
>There is still something very important missing from the current crop
of gas >products. Something that, I feel, makes our products seem coarse
and >unsophisticated to the consumer. That something is the ability for
the >average user to be able to light the pilot light of the darn thing
>themselves, without calling the store where they purchased it. And without
>burning their fingers on a hot stove! > >Now I will be the first
to admit that a product that doesn't need >explaination takes us specialty
retailers out of the loop. I know that our >ability to solve customer's
problems gives us *value*. But frankly, I am a >bit embarrassed by our
current "state of the art". > >We have been looking forward
to gas product for at least five years, telling >ourselves how nice it
will be to sell something that you don't have to give >classes on in
order for the customer to be able to use it correctly (We did >Saturday
Stove Schools for 15 years). You all know what I mean. We were sure >that
gas was the answer. > >So far, wrong again. > >Our typical gas
customer is older, doesn't see in dark places too well, has >somewhat
arthritic fingers and isn't quite as mentally sharp as they were 10 >or
15 years ago. (Yeah, I know... that profile is starting to apply to those
>of us that formed this business years ago too.) And too many of them
just >can't figure out how to get the darn pilot light lit if it has
gone out. > >Admittedly, at first I had a hard time relating to these
people. Who the heck >can't light a water heater pilot? And these have
their own built-in igniters! > Are we really selling to some dumb people
or what? > >This winter, after too many phone calls from these customers,
I decided to >look at the problem from their eyes. I tried to relate
to it like my dear 74 >year old Mom would. What I've come up with is
that the gas stoves that we >sell are not as user-friendly as they need
to be. As they must be to live up >to their true potential. > >Don't
agree? Try this: Next time someone is on the phone and needs help >lighting
their pilot, read to them directly from the instructions on the >stove
or in the owners manual. I'll bet that you can't get them to get it lit
>without explaining it better. > >And for those of you selling
Arrow, Dovre and many Heatilator products, I >double dare you to read
from the instructions on the stove. Make that triple >dare. Surprise!
(We've made Heatilator aware of the problem and they will be >correcting
it.) > >My point is simply this. We need to make the controls easier
to understand. >And we need to put the conrols in a place where arthritic
fingers can reach >without getting burned if the stove is hot. Same with
blower controls. This >isn't your father's Oldmobile, but it is what
he is replacing his woodstove >with. > >Look at the stoves you
sell. And manufacturers look at the stoves you build. >Can your Mom figure
it out? Does she know what needs to be done? Can she >really get her
hand in there to turn the valve, push the igniter and get her >fireplace
insert on without using God's name in vane? (And maybe while she's >at
it, adding the name of the person who sold it to her.) > >We put up
with these kinds of quirks from wood and pellet stoves because the >consumer
isn't looking for the ultimate in convenience. They want somthing >that
involves them and they know (or need to be told) that there is a skill >and
a learning curve to those products. Does that also describe your average
>gas customer? > >I did see a bit of improvement from some manufacturers
this year who are >using panels with decals that give at least some idea
of what the knobs are >for and at the same time hide the industrial look
of the valves and plumbing. >My hat is off to them. Please continue the
progress. If not for the good of >the industry, think of my dear old
Mom. > >When faced with a problem, our industry's manufacturers can
really come up >with good, creative solutions. Let's bring out the full
potential of gas >stoves, even if it means that our phones won't be ringing
off the hook when >we come to work on a windy morning. > >Skip
Stahmer >Sierra Timberline >Grass Valley, CA > >"It's not
enough to see it coming - you have to duck."
04/12/96
1. VC Policy, once and for all
On 4/12/96, Marty Weiss said: snip..snip....
>I discussed this situation with our rep and that is where I got the
>distinct impression that the fireplace distributor pricing is
>different.
>He also told me that I should still display this unit because
>everyone will not go to this distributor even thought VC gives out
>his number as a dealer when you call their 800 number. snip..snip...
Craig Issod (of Stoveworks - [email protected] - ) replies: Despite repeated
requests from VC regarding their strategy, we have not received a clear
answer. We simply asked "as a dealer of 12 years (and a few million)
it's important to us to know who, when, where and other things about your
current distribution policy. So, we have had to take it upon ourselves to
ask the tough questions and sort out the answers or lack of. So, here is
the message we have received from VC as to their current policy. 1. Yes,
fireplace distributors, hardware outfits and others who qualify by buying
a "truckload" (actually about 40-50 grand worth), receive a MUCH
better price than ANY retailer, even the retailers who have done many millions
with the company for over a decade. So, this one's not a rumor, it's a fact.
2. The national leads DO go to the fireplace distributors as well as the
retailers. So, even though the FP guys only carry a small % of the line,
they have equal shot at the leads. This, as far as I'm told, is also a fact.
3. To my knowledge, no territory exists for the FP distributors, which means
that not only would they open a fp dist. a few miles from you in one direction,
but they'll go in all directions, including opening fp distributors on top
of each other. This is also confirmed fact.
4. The above is in addition to Wonderfire, of which I know very little since
we are not in a big LP area. Others on this list have informed me that these
products are also rather freely distributed. So, given the above, I would
guess a lot of this stuff is not a secret anyone. It just eludes me why
this stuff is being passed on from dealer to dealer the "hard way"
rather than as a clearly defined mission and statement from VC. Yes, I've
seen "corporate speak" and other indications from VC that they
were expanding their distribution, but I don't think anyone guessed this
far or this fast. Of course, it's a free country, and it was built on capitalism
(and free speech). In the end, the market will decide. No small company
(and yes, even a 200 million$$ company is classified as small), can lead
the public and/or trade in directions they don't want to go. "We live
in interesting times". _________________________________ end of digest
send posts to [email protected]
04/15/96
1. Is Richard Wright Listening ? and You tell'm , Tim
2. manufacturers that sell to the mass merchandisers
3. HearthNet announces "Help from the Hearth", a program to help
those less fortunate
4. Manufacturers who sell to mass merchants- again
From: [email protected] Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:52:32 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hearth Digest 4/11 #2 In a message dated 96-04-11 18:15:39
EDT, you write: >-I think the tone and objectivity of both Skip's and
Dan's most recent missives are thought provoking. Sure hope Richard Wright
is tuning in to this forum on a regular basis. When will we hear from him?
(ed. Note - Mark, the email mailbox up there at Village West has been returning
mail to me, but I think Anita from Village West is on the list, as is Sondra,
who does a lot of their work) and in regards to Tim Nissen's post about
the duties of a trade org:
From: [email protected] Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:55:25 -0400 To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Digest 4/12 Nice comments, Nissen!!
2. manufacturers that sell to the mass merchandisers
From: [email protected] (MR JOHN B WALLACE)
Just a short note regarding manufacturers that sell to the mass merchandisers.
Stop selling their products. We should only support the manufacturers that
support us. I will not bring any product into my store that is sold in an
HVAC or MASS MERCHANT STORE. They tried to use my showroom as theirs, taking
up valuable time that I needed for true customers. PS. Anyone looking for
a good wood and gas manufacture try Country Stoves.
3. HearthNet announces "Help from the Hearth", a program to help
those less fortunate. Craig Issod ([email protected]) says: CHI Associates
and HearthNet are pleased to announce our new program called: Helping From
The Hearth It's very simple, we have pledged to donate a MINIMUM of 10%
of our total 1996 revenue to help folks in need. This calculation is based
on our gross revenue, and therefore does not depend upon our making a profit.
Recent Donations include: 1. $500. to help a local man (a church minister)
who fell out of a tree while helping a friend - he was paralyzed by the
fall. He has $175,000 in medical bills, three children and a wife - so,
we are sure every little bit helps.
2. $1,000. to help a group which promotes midwives in the US. This group
teaches and empowers women to take childbirth back into their own hands,
while promoting a safe and sane alternative to hospital births. With over
1000 home births under their belt, and statistics as good (actually better)
than hospitals, they definitely have a story to tell. In addition, this
group also serves folks who are in the last stages of life. You can find
out more by visiting Rocinante at http://www.well.com/user/cmty/farm/charities/roc.html
3
. $1,000 to Plenty, A grassroots organization which helps Native Peoples
all over the world. You can visit their web site at http://www.usit.net/public/plenty1/index.html.
4. We have pledged $5,000 to help Plenty bring 15 of the radiation - sick
children from the Chernobyl - radiated region of Russia to a clean, rural
area in Tennessee. Please read this quote from the newsletter : " Thousands
of youngsters and their families are living in radioactive soup. Everyone
is sick, but too poor to move. It is said that if a child can spend just
thirty days away from the radiation, their health improves dramatically,
and it can add two years to their lives." Well, if we can help 15 children
add two years to each of their lives, the 5 grand is a true bargain ! Being
as it's tax season, I can't help but think of the 40% or so of my income
that I give to the state and federal government. Well, at least I get to
deduct the contributions above ! Thanks, Uncle Sam....
Short Sermon Ok, maybe it's just me, feeling guilty about the problems of
the world. But when I hear things about radiation-sick kids, it makes me
look back to the energy and lifestyle issues that many of us struggle with.
Truth be told, many of the problems in the world are related to our greed
for energy and resources. Couple that with our wasteful and inefficient
use of same - and maybe we should feel bad. Some would argue that it's "survival
of the fittest" and the same lessons of evolution are playing themselves
out. I won't deny that these forces are at work, but in my heart I know
it's wrong to waste. So, what to do ? Heck if I know, I'm just trying to
learn myself. Craig Issod, [email protected]
4. Just a short note regarding manufacturers that sell to the mass >merchandisers.
Stop selling their products. We should only support >the manufacturers
that support us. I will not bring any product into >my store that is
sold in an HVAC or MASS MERCHANT STORE. They tried >to use my showroom
as theirs, taking up valuable time that I needed >for true customers.
Craig Issod ([email protected]) responds: There is nothing inherently
wrong (in my eyes) with a manufacturer selling their product to a mass merchant
or anyone else. Our store has sold a fireplace line, Temco, since 1983,
and we've had good success with it. In the meantime, they went in and out
of Home Depot and others. However, we knew their position from day 1, that
they felt they were in the "building products" business and that
they were not courting the specialty hearth shops as the core of their business.
I think a lot of the concern expressed on this board was with manufacturers
who either: A. Previously had promised (verbally, written or otherwise)
that they were on "our" side. B. Have poor communication regarding
present and/or future directions. I'd rather know the whole scoop when I'm
being screwed, as opposed to having to guess. When communication is not
free, honest and open, it leaves one guessing the worse. There are many
different Hearth Products being made, and some of them belong in mass merchants.
I would not refuse to buy a chimney cap line, or a furnace cement/gasket
line because the companies sold to a mass merchant. I simply want to be
properly informed, and then allowed to make whichever decision makes sense
for my company and employees. ______________________________________ end
of digest send posts to [email protected]
04/16/96
1. "Help from the Hearth" hits close to home.
2. Virtual Mood Expressions
3. More on VC, Lack of Communication, Buying Groups, Etc.
4. No God given right
1. From: [email protected] To: [email protected] (Craig Issod) Subject:
Re: Hearth Digest 4/15 (Tax Day !) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 96 22:52:21 GMT Dear
Craig: You can't imagine the surprise I felt when reading Hearth Digest
today. I'm glad that, in todays world when most people worry more about
bottom lines than the person that lives next door, we are advertising with
a company that has a conscience!!! It is shocking also that the people you
have chosen to help are organizations that we are also involved with. Having
had 2 children in the past 2 years, the last one 4 months ago, at home and
with a midwife, the whole issue of midwifery is close to my heart. I'm truly
thrilled to see support for a group that is truly deserving of it. Plenty
is a local organization here as well, a spin off from The Farm in Tennessee,
and we have always been strong supporters of their efforts. I agree, 5 grand
is definitely a bargain to give these kids a taste of "fresh air".
We are really enjoying reading Hearth Digest... Warmly Vanessa ___________________________________________________________________
2. Virtual Mood Expressions From: [email protected] Date: Mon, 15 Apr
1996 22:38:38 -0500 X-Sender: [email protected] (Unverified) Mime-Version:
1.0 To: [email protected] Subject: Short talk My Moods are Virtual ....
:-) HAPPY :-( SAD :-o SURPRISED >:-( ANGRY :-\ UNDECIDED }:-> DEVILISH
:-| AMBIVALENT :-& TONGUE TIED |-o BORED :*) CLOWNING :-c BURNED OUT ;-/
SKEPTICAL O:-) ANGELIC :~/ MIXED UP ;-> SARCASTIC %-) ....this one I
can't remeber ....(Craig fill this in for me before you print to the list)
(Ed. Note: Ken, What makes you think I know this arcane stuff ?) The Hearth
Business is a Gas! kg-one ____________________________ Visit the Emporium
http://www.weyrkeep.com http://www.hearth.com/directfire ___________________________
~\!|!/~ (Q * ) -----------ooO~(_)~Ooo----------------- ////||\\\\ Dragons
Breathe Best Together Forge a Stronger Fire ===========================
___________________________________________________
3. More on VC, Lack of Communication, Buying Groups, Etc. X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft
Date: 16 Apr 96 18:49:03 EDT From: James Lochary [email protected]>
To: Hearth Digest Subject: Hearth Digest the past
several weeks I probably should not be commenting on any of your discussions
since I am so new to the business. (2 years) However, as a so-called Chartered
Dealer for Vermont Castings in S.E. Ohio, I am very concerned. It seems
to me that Jon Harmon's comments come close to what might be useful and
possible. The hardware stores have done it and now the small pet supply
stores have created a national alliance and an organization (Pet Team) that
gives the smaller stores the buying power of the "big guys" such
as Petsmart and others. What would happen if 400 small and medium-sized
hearth retail stores could get together in a formal and committed alliance?
If, this group could agree on tactics and policy would not the manufacturers
listen? If, this group had enough buying power (clout) it could be effective
in many different areas of the hearth supply business. As to the recent
information about Vermont Castings, I am surprised and upset that any of
my "leads" will also be sent to the fireplace outlets. I have
just spoken to my Account Manager at VC about this---. The explanation amounted
to T-S. Since I am a so-called "Senior Citizen", I would like
to underscore Skip Stahmer's discussion about a gas stove that works. In
the next 10-15 years you are going to have thousands of "baby boomers"
retiring and searching for gas and wood stoves that work. Will we have a
product, then, that works? Jim --------------------------- Remember what
Aloysius Oglethorpe of Appalachia University said about decision making,
"After you light the firecracker in the cow pie, don't stand around
and watch." ---------------------------
4. X-POP3-Rcpt: fire@k2nesoft Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:11:58 +0000 From:
Roger Sanders MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Craig Issod
Subject: No God given right I'm writing about previous retailer postings
that included:
1. Manufacturers are running HPA
2. The HPA is promoting alternative distribution.
3. HPA should only be for we Specialty Retailers
4. We can really show'un by starting our own Retailer Trade Show at Reno.
First of all, if we retailers, as a group, really want to change things
with minimum effort, we should show up in large numbers at affiliate meetings.
We should promote changes are legal and are based on logic. We should really
work for our causes in our affiliates and become Board members. We will
then have significantly more influence in the HPA. There's certainly a lot
more that HPA can do to benefit us, But: Restraint of trade? A non-profit,
private hearth retailer's club? Not getting involved, then blaming the manufacturers
for controlling everything? You've got to be kidding. If you want revolution,
do it the easy way. Get involved and dominate the HPA. It's a lot easier
to take over an existing country than start your own. Even the old communists
learned that! SO GET INVOLVED. Make em turn you down. Get more retailer
positions established on the various committees. Make those supposedly mean
manufacturers listen to you. HPA would love all the participation and we
will all benefit. As to stopping alternate distribution of hearth products:
WE SPECIALTY HEARTH RETAILERS DO NOT HAVE A GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BE THE ONLY
ONES SELLING HEARTH PRODUCTS, not the last time I checked anyway. We certainly
don't have any special legal right. There isn't even any case law that supports
this special right. If I'm not mistaken, only our knowledge, skills and
retailing abilities give us the opportunity to profitably sell hearth products.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Budda says: 1.Vote your beliefs with your Purchase Orders.
2. Be ever better at what you do.
3. Get involved in your trade association. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
(Ed. Note: Well, I would accuse Roger of taking the lord's name in vain,
but since he spelled buddha wrong... ) ________________________________________________
Send posts to [email protected]