Hearthlist Digest #583 - Sunday, March 18, 2001 Re:Outgassing by "by way of Craig Issod" <[email protected]> Re: Outgas costs by "Fred Kirkpatrick" <[email protected]>
(back) Subject: Re:Outgassing From: "by way of Craig Issod" <[email protected]> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 13:47:19 -0500 While outgassing is not a real problem in our experience, I do have a pet peeve about direct-vent fireplaces. Nowhere in any of the color = literature does it mention the fact that there is a fixed pane of glass between the customer and the fire. This may seem a small point to us retailers but a large source of = irritation to the consumer. Most direct-vents in our area are put in before the homeowner realizes = this fact. When they shop our store and see the burning displays many are appalled and vent on us. While I do prefer to sell direct vent over vent- free, I wish the ad = writers would somehow get this feature across clearly to the consumer before they discover it in their home. One customer recently put it well. "I assumed = I was getting a real fire, not a video!" Kerry Duggan The Wood Stove and Fireplace Center Gainesville, Fl
(back) Subject: Re: Outgas costs From: "Fred Kirkpatrick" <[email protected]> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 13:48:18 -0500 Outgassing is indeed a problem but let's get real and analyze some of your proposed solutions verses the costs. Having worked for a couple of fireplace and woodstove manufacturers before opening my store, I have a pretty good idea of what the costs would be for = "pre-baking" or "pre-burning" these products in a modern assembly line manufacturing facility. Every manufacturer is looking to save every dollar that they can. A dollar saved in the production cost of a unit translates directly to a dollar of profit. Consider some of the biggest manufacturers who produce 20,000 units or = more per year. If they can find a way to save a measly five bucks per unit, which would seem pretty insignificant to most dealers, that would translate to an annual savings of $100,000. This $100,000 savings equals $100,000 to their bottom line! You don't have to be a mathematician to understand this. Let's take a small-medium sized manufacturer or one assembly line in a modern plant. For arguments sake let's say that they produce 8000 units per year. That translates to = an average daily production of 32 units. After sub-assemblies and parts have been made, products would flow through the various stages of welding and/or assembly, into the paint booth, out to the drying and final assembly/finishing area, down to packaging and into storage. Obviously there are many Quality = control checkpoints along the way. (We won't get into how effective they are or lack thereof.) In an 8 hour shift the production flow would average out at 4 units per hour or one unit every 15 minutes. Now we throw into this finely tuned assembly line a new step which entails removing the product from the line and "baking" it in a furnace or "pre-burning" it on the assembly = line. It stands to reason that in order for this to be effective, either of these steps would take significantly more than 15 minutes. To effectively eliminate outgassing they would have to burn a finished unit or bake a semi-finished unit for at least 30 minutes. Then they would have to allow them to cool down for another 30 minutes. Remember that these plants operate during the summer when it's 90 degrees outside. That means that in order to keep up with the production rate, an assembly line would have to have 16 units in = various stages of pre-burning or baking and cool down at a time. After they pre-burn the units, the logs would have to be removed and repackaged. We all know how "tough" ceramic logs are after they have been burned. Any obvious marred areas in the firebox would have to be touched up, which would mean more outgassing. I estimate that the costs for the manufacturers to "pre-burn" or "bake" these units would conservatively be in the vicinity of $20-$30 each. Now let's multiply this figure by the annual production yield of 8000 units per year. We come up with a net cost of $160,000 - $240,000 annually. So what does a manufacturer do? Take nearly a quarter of a million dollars loss or raise the prices? We = all know that they won't take the loss nor should we expect them to. If they raise the prices based on manufacturing cost increases of $20 - $30 per unit, the effective dealer cost increase would be $40 - $60 = each. Manufacturers, just like us dealers, have to make a margin on their costs. Perhaps you all live in an area of North America that could handle this increase, along with other annual or semi-annual increases, but I sure don't. While I agree that there are minor improvements manufacturers could incorporate to reduce outgassing, we have to face reality here. We deal with high heat producing products = that are installed within the atmosphere in which we live. When new, They are going to smell when they = are fired. They are also going to smell when left sitting all summer and fired in the fall. No = other products, some that were mentioned previously on this Hearth list, have the same circumstances as what our products do. If we want to reduce the outgassing of new units for our customers, we are going to have to pre-burn them in our facilities before selling and or installing them. At my store we pre-burn most stoves, but not all. If a customer is a do-it-yourselfer that beats me down on price, I let them contend with the smell. If we are installing and taking care of the complete job, we pre-burn gas and pellet stoves, but not woodstoves. We pre-burn all pellet stoves regardless of who installs them. In all = cases we give customers a handout that mentions the "curing" process of stoves, along with other facts and hints. I have found that these handouts eliminate a lot of "after the unit is installed" questions and customers really appreciate that. If we, as dealers, keep demanding that the manufacturers to do everything, they will. Then they won't need us! Fred Kirkpatrick Classic Heat Source, Inc. Portland, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: "Hearth Email List" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 4:35 PM Subject: Hearthlist Digest #581 - 03/15/01 > Hearthlist Digest #581 - Thursday, March 15, 2001 > > new car smell > by "Gary Moore" <[email protected]> > Re: Outgassing > by <[email protected]> >