Hearthlist Digest #232 - Thursday, November 19, 1998 Vent Free haters by "AIMsweep" <[email protected]> Re: Oregon Vent Free by <[email protected]> Re: Permits by "by way of Craig Issod" <[email protected]> re permits by Mr Mike # 131 by "Rod Poplarchick" <[email protected]> Re: Vent Free by "by way of Craig Issod" <[email protected]> vent free "stuff" by "Keith Slattery" <[email protected]>
(back) Subject: Vent Free haters From: "AIMsweep" <[email protected]> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:49:11 -0500 In response to the below statement (cut excerpt) We are not all Vent Free Haters nor extremiists. We are Hearth Professionals who give honest answers to honest questions from our clients and who respect the fact that life is precious. I for one rest easy knowing that I have informed my clients to the best of my ability and leave the final purchase in their (now knowledgeable) hands. When we have clients ask us about their choices they get the pros and cons about all fuels, all venting styles and types. An informed client is a smart (and alive) client. Regards, Yvetet Aube AIM Chimney Sweep & Hearth > Re: Vent-Free, response to you extremists > by "Roger Sanders" <[email protected]> > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:10:49 -0500 > HERE IT GOES AGAIN. > It's clear that you guys just hate Vent Free and you keep doing > everything possible to make Vent Free look bad. You're just a bunch of > extremists. > This new Consumer Reports stuff that you're so excited about is all old > news. Can't you get it through your heads that the public doesn't care > anymore. The more that you guys keep this up, the more real business > you're losing! > You "Vent Free haters" are the real culprits here, not Vent Free. > Just how many customers have you "Vent Free haters" treated poorly? How > many families have you forced to buy the much more expensive vented > appliances, sold defective products to and generally abused with poor > service? The answer is thousands.
(back) Subject: Re: Oregon Vent Free From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:49:46 -0500 In a message dated 98-11-18 18:07:15 EST, you write: << Get over it! All the leading Vent Free opponents have lost. Even the great state of New York has approved Vent Free, California will soon be doing the same and it looks like Oregon could follow. >> Roger: Oregon doesn't and hasn't prohibited unvented appliances. Dave Johnston [email protected]
(back) Subject: Re: Permits From: [email protected] (by way of Craig Issod) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:50:51 -0500 in michigan, we must pull a permit for gas log installations and that includes putting in a key valve or some other method of turning off the gas supply. the state will not allow a homeowner pull the permit if someone else installs the goods.
(back) Subject: re permits by Mr Mike # 131 From: "Rod Poplarchick" <[email protected]> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:51:20 -0500 California dealers/contractors who install their own products please don't do what Mike sudjest! According to the California contractors law the contractor must pull the permits or their is some consequence. I dont know about other state laws on the subject. Reminder: California contractors don't forget to take your home improvement supplemental test ONLINE on the CSLB website that is soon going to be required. "Tell your customers they must pull their own permit. It saves you time and also protects both you and your customer. The job will be inspected and approved by the building official and that will satisfy the Insurance cos. Mr Mike" *Rod Poplarchick * Climate Control Systems [email protected] [email protected] http://www.surfus.com http://www.surfus.com/ccs
(back) Subject: Re: Vent Free From: [email protected] (by way of Craig Issod) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:40:11 -0500 Regarding the building permit issue and telling our customers to pull their own: In California a licensed contractor is required by law to have a permit issued before commencing work for the type of installations that hearth shops do. The responsibility falls directly upon our shoulders. If you tell your customer to deal with it, your install crew shows up to do the job, and they customer "forgot" or "didn't get around to it" or "didn't want to get one", you've got a challenge on your hands. At least if your crews are as busy as mine. Regarding the "Vent Free Haters" from Roger Sanders (Wow!), I'm sure lots of email will come in, but it's hard for me to believe that the people I've met in this industry over the last 20 years would mislead customers simply to be able to sell a very inexpensive B vent pipe system. Sorry Roger, I think there is more to it than small profits from a simple vent system that rarely costs as much as the gas line extension to the appliance.
(back) Subject: vent free "stuff" From: Keith Slattery <[email protected]> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:43:32 -0500 Greetings. I must say... that today was probably the first time that I've chuckled out loud to an email from Hearth.com While I certainly would not want to be the one to participate or instigate a nasty "fight" amongst fellow industry "brothers", I must say that this type of dialogue is definetely entertaining. So.... my response.... it's funny... I find it amazing how much credence consumers give to consumer reports articles. I am a moderate car enthusiast. I like cars that go fast, handle well and are well built. I always have scoffed at the treatment certain cars get from consumer reports. They seem to like cars that cost less to operate & fix more than a car that elicits emotional responses from the owner. Needless to say, that is how the vast majority of people feel about cars. My point is that I always look at their articles as a joke. So... no surprise here about that article... My personal feelings about vent free probably don't have any merit in this forum. My personal "experiences" probably do since we have sold over 10,000 of these appliances. While we may not be in the loop for every technical problem experienced, we certainly are aware of the larger problems that do arise. As I have said before, in our experience, vent free products are certainly the most trouble free gas products we have ever sold from a mechanical standpoint and from a consumer complaint standpoint. I always relate the differences in opinions regarding vent free to my experience with selling pellet stoves. When we started to sell pellet stoves in our area in 1989, we were in the "pioneer" mode. We would talk to a dealer and their response would be - "Oh yeah, I heard those things were selling out west, BUT - You need power, they are service intensive (back then gas wasn't as strong and dealers were not as accustomed to the service call issue), the products are not fully developed, you can't get pellets, pellets cost too much, where do you store them, on and on and on... In our territory (excluding New Jersey) pellet stoves really took off... (75 stoves in 1989 - as of today we have sold over 11,000). The point being - with all the negative stuff you can say about a pellet stove, if consumers are aware that this is another viable choice for them as an alternative hearth product, they will buy them! On top of that, generally they are pretty damn happy with them... Back to vent free... certain manufacturers have done everything they can to promote negative information regarding vent free products. Why? Because they are on some crusade to make sure that people buy better products? No way... becuase vent free products have had an impact on the sale on vented products. Strictly money.... So... this is what is happening - vent free products are one of the fastest growing segments of the hearth industry over the last few years. Except for a few isolated instances, the major players in this market produce well built products that consumers like when they are properly installed and operated. As for the Home Depots of the world selling them irresponsibly, there is nothing we can do about that. At the same time, how many horror stories have been told about consumers buying a woodburning 0-clearance from mass merchants and not installing the chimney to specs? The plain fact is - consumers want to buy vent free products. Either you get on the bandwagon and sell them responsibly - which by the way can mean substantial profits, or you can choose not to sell them. The point of my long winded email? To present some of the items in the response from the Vent Free Alliance. The entire response will be published in the upcoming issue of Alternative Energy Retailer - As qouted from the Vent Free Alliance - "The article provides no in-depth description of their testing parameters of vent free gass products. But their conclusions are in direct contradiction of industry product listing standards, established independent research and national model codes. "While the article advised consumers to crack a widow when operating the product, three years ago the American National Standards Institue (ANSI) concluded that this is not required. ANSI instead directs that when vent free gas products are installed in observance of the National Fual Gas Code, (as required for ALL gas appliances), then the combustion air requirements for vent free gas products are satisfied." "The industry is also mystified by the comments in the Consumer Reports article stating that "mis-matching" of vent free fireboxes and logs can cause unacceptable levels of carbon monoxide. There is now an ANSI standard for Universal vent free fireboxes meaning that any listed box can be paired with any listed log that does not exceed the physical limits of the box. This standard was developed to assure that combustible surfaces of the box do not exceed temperature limits. The ANSI committee and standard expressed no concern for product emissions related to pairing with boxes and the industry has no evidence of such a concern." "The article also contradicts the findings of recent independent research conducted by AGARD. That research tested the products under "worse case" conditions and concluded that "when used as a supplemental heat and operated according to manufacturers' instructions, vent free products perform well within nationally recognized guidelines for indoor air quality." "AGARD conducted their research over a period of several months, in the world renowned, AGA research test house facility, and subjected the products to a broad range of environmental variables. The project director, Doug DeWeth, is one of the most esteemed, experienced gas product researchers and over the last three years, DeWeth has presented the research model and the results to more than 1,000 gas engineers, scientists and industry experts (including presentations in three consecutive years at the HPA convention). This extensive peer review has repeatedly confirmed the AGARD test model and findings. Our industry remains very confident and comfortable that the AGARD research serves as the most credible review of vent free gas products as related to indoor air quality. This research tested the products in a typical heating use pattern of four hours, but presented no findings that limited the period of use. The industry is unaware of any data or field experience that support the recommendation of Consumer Reports to limit the use of vent free gas products to two hour periods." "Equally as important, the U.S. vent free gas products industry now has nineteen years history and more than seven million units installed. The safety record of the products is outstanding... not a single documented death attributed to emissions from a listed vent free gas product and the absence of research documenting negative health effects linked to the use of these products." So.... there you go..... a portion from the industry's response. And on top of it all, you get another long winded email from yours truly. I anxiously await the arrival of more emails as the debate continues. After all, it's one of the reasons I get up in the morning..... (that was for you Craig)... Keith Slattery