Hearthlist Digest #340 - Tuesday, September 7, 1999 Re: Internet Sales by "Skip Jackson" <[email protected]> [email protected] by "Craig Issod" <[email protected]> Regarding Internet Sales ( again ) by "John Billwiller" <[email protected]> Re: Selling over the net by "Roger Sanders" <[email protected]> RE; Selling over the net by "Craig Issod" <[email protected]> Re:Internet Sales by "Christie Martindale" <[email protected]>
(back) Subject: Re: Internet Sales From: Skip Jackson <[email protected]> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:31:11 -0500 Dear kg-one@weyrkepp, A nice reply. But I never trust anyone who does not have the courtesy and/or courage to sign his name. Skip Jackson Fireside Engineering Cincinnati Ohio
(back) Subject: [email protected] From: Craig Issod <[email protected]> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:39:05 -0500 I don't think Ken is trying to hide his identity. He's not the type. In fact, (ken, is that you?) naked pictures of someone in the shower can be easily found by going to the new (and GREAT) seach engine http://www.google.com and typing in his email address. Hit the "I'm feeling lucky" button and you'll be treated to all of Murken's Emporium! Speaking of the new breed of search engine, these will make the older types obselete. They use "intelligence" to find almost exact matches to your query. Can't fool them like the older ones. ------------------------------------------------------ Craig Issod HearthNet at http://www.hearth.com [email protected] Everything your Hearth Desires ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------
(back) Subject: Regarding Internet Sales ( again ) From: John Billwiller <[email protected]> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:25:23 -0500 I would like to add my comment to this topic. I am a home-based, part-time, purveyor of pellet heating appliances and pellet fuel. I also provide service to all customers within a 130-150 mile 'as-the-crow-flies' circle. I dont care whether they bought the appliance from me or one of the factories I am a distributor for. My main reason for being a pellet heating supplier/advocate/servicer is because I am a firm believer that wherever the pellet heating appliance was purchased, it will/or/does require a technician's intervention at some time during it's service life. My home-based business ( part-time ) will eventually provide me with the income I need to allow me to retire from my full-time job. In the interim, I will continue to maintain my web-site promoting pellet fuel heating and continue to answer queries and requests for information/price quotes from 4 of the 7 continents (at the moment) and offer technical advice, to the best of my ability, to any and all of the people who access my site. Regarding the specific topic of Internet sales; I have sucessfully, through the Internet, sold parts to clients as far distant as 3000 miles. They told me the problem; we discussed symptoms/options; I shipped the parts; they had paid me up-front and I have yet to have a negative response from any client. This is about a 1 year period, to date. Should CHI Assoc. wish to include this paragraph to this message, my URL is http://.www.snowballventures.com I do not see a problem with doing sales over the Internet. I DO see a problem with NOT servicing your Internet customers - whether in person or via email to resolve their problem. I have had clients who purchased their heating appliance 500 miles away, had me install their appliance, and then had to deal with three (3) warranty problems which their sell- ing dealer should have had to deal with. He wouldn't; I did; so they are still using their pellet heater and buying fuel and service from me. The point I am trying to make is: SERVICE your customer - from wherever they are at. If you try to help them and fail to resolve the problem -- you cannot be accused of not trying. I've only been in the pellet heating industry since 1996 but from what I've heard and seen, SERVICE is our BIGGEST downfall. Thanks for listening to me. John B. , Snowball Ventures Grand Forks, British Columbia, Canada
(back) Subject: Re: Selling over the net From: "Roger Sanders" <[email protected]> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:07:55 -0500 Jim Butchart Said: The point is: Gas logs, gas stoves, ventless gas logs, woodstoves, and pellet stoves should not be sold over the internet. Craig Issod said in response: While this is a valid opinion, it is wishful thinking which is so far removed from reality as to be likened to the tooth fairy. (sorry, Jim)... We prepared proper (internet sold boilers) manuals and other instructions, carefully qualified our customers, ALWAYS were available by 800 number and were glad to talk to either the customer or his contractors. As a result, we had virtually no returns and almost 100% customer satisfaction. We have one local hearth store near here where the owner throws things at customers and calls them names I can't repeat on a family list like this! ----------------------------------- Craig, You, not Jim, seem to be the one who thinks that the internet is the tooth fairy and you seem to be the one whose wishful thinking is far removed from reality. Reality is that your example of your personal business operation is an exception to the typical direct sales process, and not at all typical of direct sales. Good lord Craig, your other example of a retail store whose owner throws things and cusses customers is an incredible exception to the typical retail hearth store. Craig, you can always find exceptions, but your exceptions are are not the norm. Believing that customers can usually handle their own hearth products installation, service and warranty issues via e-mail and phone is literally believing in the tooth fairy! Craig, you should evaluate the issue of others doing internet hearth products selling based on what typically happens when there is no local dealer, and not base your conclusions on your extreme exceptions. Typically where there is no local dealer: 1. Customers are not properly qualified via e-mail or the phone to insure that they have selected right product for their needs. The qualifying process creates customer frustration and loses sales. This process is hard enough to handle in a normal retail store where sales staff can build a relationship of trust directly with the customer. Many times, proper qualification requires that trained personnel go to the homeowner's home to get it right. 2. Hearth products are not consumer friendly and will probably never be. Homeowners are not equipped, nor trained to properly install and set up their hearth product. They typically will not follow all the installation manual requirements and sometimes times the manuals have errors in them. Many operational and safety problems result. 3. With internet sales, there are no factory trained personnel available to do the significant amount of "goodwill" servicing that is required to make a specific hearth product operate properly in a specific environment. The typical problems cannot be resolved via e-mail. Our retail store alone provides hundreds of goodwill services each season on products that we installed and set up correctly. Customer satisfaction is much lower if there is no dealer service. 4. Hearth products have an amazingly high rate of warranty problems. Our retail store resolves hundreds of these warranty problems each season. Many problems require very well trained personnel with considerable specialized equipment and an exceptional ability for problem solving. Homeowners are in no position to resolve their warranty problems, via e-mail or otherwise. There are always exceptions, but Jim is right when he said: Gas logs, gas stoves, ventless gas logs, woodstoves, and pellet stoves should not be sold over the internet. Jim's list might also include fireplaces and fireplace inserts. Roger Sanders
(back) Subject: RE; Selling over the net From: "Craig Issod" <[email protected]> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:28:02 -0500 Roger Said: >Reality is that your example of your personal business operation is an >exception to the typical direct sales process, and not at all typical of >direct sales. > >Good lord Craig, your other example of a retail store whose owner throws >things and cusses customers is an incredible exception to the typical >retail hearth store. > >Craig, you can always find exceptions, but your exceptions are are not >the norm. Roger, Jim made a blanket statement that something should "Not be done". I never claimed that direct sales would become the "norm". However, I estimate direct sales over the net and catalogs will be 10-20% of the hearth business within the next few years...and RESEARCH (before purchase) on the net for hearth products will be 50%+. You may not define this as the norm, but it's still a good chunk of change that few can afford to ignore. Roger, I don't create the market - but = (like most of you) try to observe it and react. Putting our heads in the sand = and wishing, praying and stating what should be done will have no effect whatsoever. As far as competition that throws chairs, we are blessed in the Philadelphia area to have LOTS of competition that turn off their customers. Most of them suffer from a severe lack of knowledge, others = from poor sttitudes. We hear from their cast-off customers regularly in our old store. Maybe you are not so lucky where you live. I would never state that "all hearth products should be sold at high markups by Ma and Pop stores". This is not reality either. If Roger and/or Jim provide the services they talk about, they have nothing to be = concerned about. The point of all this is that there are market changes and shifts = occuring. Ask Sears about their catalog - it isn't happening anymore...ask them = about their retail stores - sales are down. >Believing that customers can usually handle their own hearth products >installation, service and warranty issues via e-mail and phone is >literally believing in the tooth fairy! Well, since hundreds of thousands of Vermont Castings customers handled this 20 years ago, I think we better start placing those teeth under the pillow :-) Truth is, there are chimney sweeps, plumbers, hvac guys and other service outfits that are happy to do factory service on many products. We had one or two boilers that leaked - local welders were glad to fix them for us = and send the bill. I'm not saying this service network is currently in place, but it is very realistic to think it could be done. This is how computers, copying machines and many other applicances are serviced. Roger, what say you about businesses that are already doing this to the tune of millions of dollars...like Lehmans Hardware? I KNOW these guys = work hard to satisfy their customers since I've had some of Lehmans customers who had problems send me email. In the end, they were taken care of and happy. ------------------------------------------------------ Craig Issod HearthNet at http://www.hearth.com [email protected] Everything your Hearth Desires ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------
(back) Subject: Re:Internet Sales From: "Christie Martindale" <[email protected]> Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:52:13 -0500 One aspect of internet sales that has not has discussed affects my = business in Reno. We are required to file with the local Air Pollution Control = Division of the Health Department an "Affidavit of Sale", signed by the selling dealer, the purchaser and the building department. How do you deal with this via internet sales? How do you know what the local air pollution regulations are? Do you just ignore them and hope that the local agency does not go after you? Do you risk the $10,000.00 fine for failure to = file the correct forms. Do you wait for the agencies to shut you down (like = they did to a major hardware chain we all know and love)? Love to hear some comments on this. Christie Martindale Bishop Woodstove-Bishop CA By The Fire-Reno, NV